New NOx VRT levy

colm_mcm

cd76 wrote: »

There's already incentives on Hybrids and EVs and much lower tax on lower CO2 petrols. No more "incentives" required.
Nox is essentially penalising imports which is right. Each year the price of Diesel fuel and tax on diesel cars should increase. Drivers should be incrementally penalised for driving diesels so that by 2025 it would not make sense to drive one.

Why not incentivise the removal of the worst cars off the roads?

michellie

L-M wrote: »

Someone today told me that people who had failed to get a booking before the deadline got their NOX back? Any truth in that?

They can appeal it. I doubt anyone has gotten a refund yet. Those things can take time, it's been less than 2 weeks.

McGiver

MarkN wrote:

I'm in two minds I have to say - why should Ireland be a dumping ground for the UK's unwanted diesels (although not all the cars being imported are diesel obviously) and then I appreciate also that it was just a sneaky way of hitting imports and taxing the motorist yet again.

Preventing dumping is the primary motivation. Getting extra cash is a pleasant bonus and an excuse.

UK is a huge market undergoing rather rapid transition to low carbon. Also, they are fully aware of the toxicity of diesel and are phasing it out (rightly). Diesels got a bad reputation, people are aware of the external costs not reflected in running costs (pollution, healthcare costs, human suffering, death).

So in Ireland's position you can't just sit and watch a huge market next to you dumping dirty stuff on you. That market is 12 times larger and much more dynamic, dumping to a smaller market would be an obvious solution to the get rid of their diesels nobody wants anymore, especially if the small market is in love with diesels. Something had to be done. Surprisingly, the gov did something (almost) right...

colm_mcm

McGiver wrote: »

Preventing dumping is the primary motivation. Getting extra cash is a pleasant bonus and an excuse.

UK is a huge market undergoing rather rapid transition to low carbon. Also, they are fully aware of the toxicity of diesel and are phasing it out (rightly). Diesels got a bad reputation, people are aware of the external costs not reflected in running costs (pollution, healthcare costs, human suffering, death).

So in Ireland's position you can't just sit and watch a huge market next to you dumping dirty stuff on you. That market is 12 times larger and much more dynamic, dumping to a smaller market would be an obvious solution to the get rid of their diesels nobody wants anymore, especially if the small market is in love with diesels. Something had to be done. Surprisingly, the gov did something (almost) right...

That absolutely wasn’t happening though. We heard tales of all these diesels for half nothing without any evidence of their existence.
People were buying them because they wanted them, and there is a genuine shortage of quality used cars in certain years.

McGiver

Casati wrote:

Good idea. In the meantime keep driving your 20 year old diesel

N9, if you can't do electric, plugin hybrid or at least hybrid, get a petrol at least. Diesel is a dirty **** and whole Europe are getting rid of it and taxing the hell out of it. Only the in Ireland is the tax on diesel so low (equal to petrol) and diesel penetration so high (65%).

cnocbui

McGiver wrote: »

N9, if you can't do electric, plugin hybrid or at least hybrid, get a petrol at least. Diesel is a dirty **** and whole Europe are getting rid of it and taxing the hell out of it. Only the in Ireland is the tax on diesel so low (equal to petrol) and diesel penetration so high (65%).

You seem confused. It's not that diesel is lightly taxed but that petrol is excessively taxed. The stupid greens put up the tax on petrol and implemented a CO2 based VRT because they thought CO2 was evil and that cancer and lung diseases were ok.

When you refine crude oil, you get nearly twice the amount of petrol as diesel, so diesel should be almost double the price of petrol. The Irish government has been doing it's best to fight the natural order.

elperello

colm_mcm wrote: »

Why not incentivise the removal of the worst cars off the roads?

It would need to be a scrappage scheme.
Exporting would be seen as just polluting the air in another country.

Atlantic Dawn

elperello wrote: »

It would need to be a scrappage scheme.
Exporting would be seen as just polluting the air in another country.

Diesels are fine out in the backarse of nowhere, they are only a problem in built up areas, exporting them to some remote area of Africa would be grand.

colm_mcm

McGiver wrote: »

N9, if you can't do electric, plugin hybrid or at least hybrid, get a petrol at least. Diesel is a dirty **** and whole Europe are getting rid of it and taxing the hell out of it. Only the in Ireland is the tax on diesel so low (equal to petrol) and diesel penetration so high (65%).

Untrue. Belgium’s tax system is based on Co2 as well and favours diesel. Same in Luxembourg,
Romania doesn’t discriminate between petrol or diesel in annual tax, neither does France (it’s free there), or Spain.

elperello

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Diesels are fine out in the backarse of nowhere, they are only a problem in built up areas, exporting them to some remote area of Africa would be grand.

Non built up areas are in Ireland as well as Africa.

So you have a guy living in Dowra with a job in an industrial estate in Sligo.
Might as well let him carry on rather than make his commute non-viable.


How would you ensure the car was going to the wilds of Africa rather than a city.
Have you ever seen Nairobi or Lagos?

jmreire

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Diesels are fine out in the backarse of nowhere, they are only a problem in built up areas, exporting them to some remote area of Africa would be grand.

No it would not.. Africa has enough problems..the day's of dumping our problems to other countries is long gone...And I don't equate the issue of Irish people travelling to England to pick up a car at a better price than they can here in Ireland, as England "Dumping" it's unwanted diesel cars into ireland. We are willingly buying them, and visit any main dealership in the Country, and see how many cars they are importing.....

mgn

The big dealerships had no problem with any imports until the average Joe or Mary Soap started importing cars themselfs, cutting out the dealer.
These NOX emissions are know about for years,

jmreire

mgn wrote: »

The big dealerships had no problem with any imports until the average Joe or Mary Soap started importing cars themselfs, cutting out the dealer.
These NOX emissions are know about for years,

Yes they have been...but now it suits the SIMI agenda, and our cash hungry government too.....:cool:

McGiver

cnocbui wrote:

You seem confused. It's not that diesel is lightly taxed but that petrol is excessively taxed. The stupid greens put up the tax on petrol and implemented a CO2 based VRT because they thought CO2 was evil and that cancer and lung diseases were ok.

Not confused. For clarity - I meant motor tax not tax on fuel.

Have to be agree with the cancer vs CO2, you're right. It was a mistake.

McGiver

colm_mcm wrote:

Untrue. Belgium’s tax system is based on Co2 as well and favours diesel. Same in Luxembourg, Romania doesn’t discriminate between petrol or diesel in annual tax, neither does France (it’s free there), or Spain.

Beg to be differ.

Netherlands - motor tax for a diesel engine car is about twice as expensive than similarly sized petrol engine car

Sweden - motor tax for diesel engine car is calculated as motor tax of petrol equivalent multiplied by coefficient of 2.37, plus there are additional surcharges for older polluting diesels based on the Euro type

Do you think Spain and France should be the role model for Ireland or rather Netherlands and Sweden?

colm_mcm

McGiver wrote: »

Beg to be differ.

Netherlands - motor tax for a diesel engine car is about twice as expensive than similarly sized petrol engine car

Sweden - motor tax for diesel engine car is calculated as motor tax of petrol equivalent multiplied by coefficient of 2.37, plus there are additional surcharges for older polluting diesels based on the Euro type

Do you think Spain and France should be the role model for Ireland or rather Netherlands and Sweden?

I never mentioned Sweden or the Netherlands when responding to your incorrect statement that Ireland was the only EU country to not penalize diesel usage.

Infernal Racket

Reading up on this new tax it would appear solely designed to put am end to the UK car imports flooding into Ireland. The tax makes it now almost impossible to pick up any kind of a good deal by shopping in the UK as the new tax will be piled upon the VRT. For example, someone thinking of buying a 4 or 5 year old Golf in the UK UK or Northern Ireland could be hit with almost 2 grand extra in top of VRT. Now call me a cynic but this puts the ball squarely back in the Irish traders court and they'll be able to hike their prices again as it's no longer viable to travel.

KCross

Gerry G wrote: »

Reading up on this new tax it would appear solely designed to put am end to the UK car imports flooding into Ireland. The tax makes it now almost impossible to pick up any kind of a good deal by shopping in the UK as the new tax will be piled upon the VRT. For example, someone thinking of buying a 4 or 5 year old Golf in the UK UK or Northern Ireland could be hit with almost 2 grand extra in top of VRT. Now call me a cynic but this puts the ball squarely back in the Irish traders court and they'll be able to hike their prices again as it's no longer viable to travel.

Yes and No.

If its a high polluting diesel you are after, then yes.

If its a newer Euro 6 diesel, will low emissions, it will have little or no effect on prices here (the tax can be as low as €40)... so thats the majority of cars since 2015, which is 70%+ of what will be imported.

There should still be plenty of value in going to the UK for those Euro 6 cars. Brexit on 1 Jan 2021 might be a bigger threat to imports than this tax though.

Isambard

yes , it's a problem that will diminish over time. Rather like the higher Motor Tax on 2007 and before cars it will play itself out and cleaner cars will be economic to import, but will they be available at all?

mgn

Isambard wrote: »

yes , it's a problem that will diminish over time. Rather like the higher Motor Tax on 2007 and before cars it will play itself out and cleaner cars will be economic to import, but will they be available at all?

There will always a supply of second hand cars in the UK due to the amount of fleet and lease cars changed every 3 or 4 years.

michellie

The majority of cars being registered so far have been low NOx, there's been the few that have had quite high amounts but these are from people who didn't research it properly/ have the organisation skills of a potato /or are returning to pay from last month.

colm_mcm

Michelle, you work within the NCTS/VRO/Revenue or something?

rabbitinlights

What's the best source of NOx information for specific cars?

I've used this http://www.emissionsfinder.com/ but it shows that a 2011 BMW 525D only has 27mg/km - so that would be €135 on top of VRT?

Then a 530D has 160mg/km?

That has to be an error on the 525d?

colm_mcm

It seems the only reliable source is the individual v5 document for the particular car.

elperello

KCross wrote: »

Yes and No.

If its a high polluting diesel you are after, then yes.

If its a newer Euro 6 diesel, will low emissions, it will have little or no effect on prices here (the tax can be as low as €40)... so thats the majority of cars since 2015, which is 70%+ of what will be imported.

There should still be plenty of value in going to the UK for those Euro 6 cars. Brexit on 1 Jan 2021 might be a bigger threat to imports than this tax though.

Take for instance the case of a young person starting out. Just getting going in a job with a 50km commute.

They won't be able to afford a Euro 6 anyway so will end up buying an older diesel at the higher dealer price.
Same environmental result just more money out of their pocket.

Of course eventually they will get promoted/better job and be able to afford something newer but for now they are caught.

KCross

elperello wrote: »

Take for instance the case of a young person starting out. Just getting going in a job with a 50km commute.

They won't be able to afford a Euro 6 anyway so will end up buying an older diesel at the higher dealer price.
Same environmental result just more money out of their pocket.

Not really... its one less poor diesel coming into the country. That person will more than likely do one of two things...

- Change the car they want to something with a better NOx figure (doesnt necessarily have to be Euro 6.... could be a smaller petrol or hybrid for example) for the same money.
- Buy a secondhand car here in which case we dont add another poor diesel to our fleet. They will be paying SIMI prices in this case but they have a choice.

Both of those are better for our environment and our emissions fines to the EU.

elperello wrote: »

Of course eventually they will get promoted/better job and be able to afford something newer but for now they are caught.

I agree they are somewhat caught in that they cant go to the UK for that cheaper diesel car they may have had their eye on. They will need to reassess and make a better choice which is the whole point of the tax... its to change behavior, like the plastic bag levy.

michellie

colm_mcm wrote: »

Michelle, you work within the NCTS/VRO/Revenue or something?

kc78

Am I right in thinking NOx is part of the VRT so a disabled driver won't have to pay due to the VRT exemption?

KCross

rabbitinlights wrote: »

What's the best source of NOx information for specific cars?

You should use the UK Vehicle cert agency. Its a bit of a pig of a site to use but it will be the best estimate you'll get.

https://carfueldata.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx

The ultimate answer is on the V5 though.

rabbitinlights wrote: »

I've used this http://www.emissionsfinder.com/ but it shows that a 2011 BMW 525D only has 27mg/km - so that would be €135 on top of VRT?

Then a 530D has 160mg/km?

That has to be an error on the 525d?

The UK cert agency site lists those at 119 and 132 respectively so you'd be looking at €1600+ on top of normal VRT for those.

michellie

kc78 wrote: »

Am I right in thinking NOx is part of the VRT so a disabled driver won't have to pay due to the VRT exemption?

Yea exemptions cover Nox and vrt

Dakota Dan

Idbatterim wrote: »

Wothball of the imports from the uk, should the vrt on petrol diesel not climb and reduce it further for elecyric ? They are complaining about all the dirty diesels coming in !

When you pay the tax you can drive and pollute as much as you want.

elperello

KCross wrote: »

Not really... its one less poor diesel coming into the country. That person will more than likely do one of two things...

- Change the car they want to something with a better NOx figure (doesnt necessarily have to be Euro 6.... could be a smaller petrol or hybrid for example) for the same money.
- Buy a secondhand car here in which case we dont add another poor diesel to our fleet. They will be paying SIMI prices in this case but they have a choice.

Both of those are better for our environment and our emissions fines to the EU.



I agree they are somewhat caught in that they cant go to the UK for that cheaper diesel car they may have had their eye on. They will need to reassess and make a better choice which is the whole point of the tax... its to change behavior, like the plastic bag levy.

I was thinking more globally than locally on the basis that if the car is a good runner it will be clocking up the miles somewhere.
You are correct that it won't be Ireland's problem.

They have choices but all of them will take money from their pocket either in purchase price or fuel.

I expect this will change behavior but buying a shopping bag for €2 is an easier change to make than spending €2k extra on a car.

cnocbui

There's a lot bigger gap than €2k between the cost of EVs and ICE powered cars.

elperello

cnocbui wrote: »

There's a lot bigger gap than €2k between the cost of EVs and ICE powered cars.

There certainly is.

Even Richard Bruton said last week that it will be another four years until the EV will align with ICE.

About the only EV a young person starting out could afford is a second hand Leaf.

Just by the way, the young lads don't seem to go for the Leaf. I can't recall seeing any driving one.

McGiver

colm_mcm wrote:

I never mentioned Sweden or the Netherlands when responding to your incorrect statement that Ireland was the only EU country to not penalize diesel usage.

Alright. Ireland favours diesel, that's a different game altogether. The rest stands.

And I'd prefer Ireland to be Sweden rather than France. Not sure about you. Hope that suffices.

jmreire

For many people ( most in fact) their choice of transport, all other consideration's aside...Health, Climate change etc. Even with the best will in the world climate wise, will be governed by what they can afford, so if it suits their pockets to buy in England, despite extra import taxes etc, thats where they will go. Or at least until Brexit kick's in, but for now, as more and more 2nd hand cars enter the market in England, the price's there will drop and negate to a certain extent the NOx generated increases here,,,,so SIMI celebrations might be a bit premature ....

colm_mcm

The UK registers roughly 2.5 million new cars per year.

I think exports to Ireland peaked at around 100k, spread across different ages of car. I can’t see Ireland being a huge factor in UK used prices, but certainly values of specific models are being propped up by Irish buyers to a certain extent.

jmreire

colm_mcm wrote: »

The UK registers roughly 2.5 million new cars per year.

I think exports to Ireland peaked at around 100k, spread across different ages of car. I can’t see Ireland being a huge factor in UK used prices, but certainly values of specific models are being propped up by Irish buyers to a certain extent.

Yes I understand that, none the less, English motorists are facing the same ( and maybe even more extensive ) carbon reduction measures ( city centre bans, special taxes to be paid for car's " Over the Limit" emission wise etc), So this will mean a more and more of these vehicles will be on the market in the UK, and their values will drop accordingly. I know that the cars I am speaking about are diesel " bad emitters", but there will be good emitters too!! ( if such a thing exists!! ) and more acceptable to Irish buyers. The bottom line will remain, if a buyer fancies a particular, and he can buy it at a better price in the UK ( all factors taken into consideration, Taxes, Shipping etc) then he will still buy in the UK.

znv6i3h7kqf9ys

elperello wrote: »

Take for instance the case of a young person starting out. Just getting going in a job with a 50km commute.

They won't be able to afford a Euro 6 anyway so will end up buying an older diesel at the higher dealer price.
Same environmental result just more money out of their pocket.

Of course eventually they will get promoted/better job and be able to afford something newer but for now they are caught.

Spot on. Dealers don't usually keep stock of used cars over 4 years old. Main dealers anyway. This means the nox tax does not affect them importing euro 6 from the UK. Not everybody has 20k to spend. Most diesels 12k and under are liable for the tax.

ELM327

So this is going to have an unexpected impact
It favours large engined petrol imports as the max petrol nox fee is 4.5k cheaper than diesel.

punisher5112

ELM327 wrote: »

So this is going to have an unexpected impact
It favours large engined petrol imports as the max petrol nox fee is 4.5k cheaper than diesel.

Nobody will buy big petrol engines unless it's got chape road tax.....( I know motor tax)

Look at the Camry as it's got a 2.5 engine but as it's hybrid the tax is cheap.

Loads of taxis going around with 2013/16 etc imports from Japan.

ELM327

But I was looking at potential cars for when I change the Tesla in 2-3 years, and one replacement I had been considering was a V12 TDI Audi Q7 but this hits the max Nox charge. Large petrol cars (eg W12 Continental, v12 7 series, v8 Charger SRT etc) do not have this nox penalty but have similar VRT as high value cars and similar road tax 2350.

colm_mcm

Hadn’t considered the used V12 TDI import market.

Buttercup10

Hi,
Can anyone answer a question for me please? I am bringing a car here from UK. It is being gifted to me by a family member. It was originally an Irish reg car, brought over there a few years ago and all relevant taxes and charges paid.
I have been informed this means I don't have to pay VRT. So if I don't have to pay the VRT does it mean I won't have to pay the new NOx charge? Any help appreciated!

punisher5112

Buttercup10 wrote: »

Hi,
Can anyone answer a question for me please? I am bringing a car here from UK. It is being gifted to me by a family member. It was originally an Irish reg car, brought over there a few years ago and all relevant taxes and charges paid.
I have been informed this means I don't have to pay VRT. So if I don't have to pay the VRT does it mean I won't have to pay the new NOx charge? Any help appreciated!

Depends did they reclaim the original vrt?

Buttercup10

punisher5112 wrote: »

Depends did they reclaim the original vrt?

No

punisher5112

Did they tell it was exported?

Buttercup10

punisher5112 wrote: »

Did they tell it was exported?

Sorry, tell who?!

punisher5112

Buttercup10 wrote: »

Sorry, tell who?!

Shannon/motor tax office

Buttercup10

punisher5112 wrote: »

Shannon/motor tax office

Oh. Yes, but they actually seem to know very little about NOx tbh.