Surrender of license for a Substitution.

Cass

This thread reminded me of a few instances in the last couple of weeks which have me concerned so i wanted to see if anyone was having the same experience/problem.

I applied for a substitution a few months back. After waiting months i finally got it, but part of the demands of the new FO was that i surrender my current license so when the substitution goes through i only have possession of the new/subbed license for the new firearm.

At the time i was asked for it i protested, vigorously, citing the number of problems such a demand would create not least of which was if the sub was refused by the Super (as the fO only processes the application) then i have no license for the firearm still in my possession.

This week i was contacted by a few lads with similar problems and one with the exact problem i had and as predicted he is now having the exact issue(s) i predicted. He went for a sub, was rang and told it won't be done (it was only the FO not the Super so i told him to push it, but he didn't want the hassle), and that he would have to submit a new application.

The problem now is, he was forced to surrender his current license so has no license for the firearm in his possession.

When this happened to me i pointed out to my FO how even the Commissioner's guidelines state:

It should be noted that the original firearm certificate will cease to be in force but should only be destroyed by the holder following receipt of the newly amended firearm certificate carrying the details of the new firearm.

I told him he has three options:

1. Contact the FO and demand his license back
2. Contact the FO and demand a newly printed license
3. contact the Super to complain about this new "rule" and demand his license back.

I told him i would write to support him with my experience of this (my sub went through so although i had no license for nearly three months i eventually got one.

Anyone else getting asked for this?

garv123

Yup, moved to a new area in the same county, but different super, my. 17 was sold and licence granted, but the FO still wanted my old licence handed in. It was meant to be a substitution but I got a grant letter in the post and charged again. Ended up paying it because i needed the shotgun in a rush.

feartuath

Not wanting to change the topic but one of the lads here had his round limit reduced from 250 to 100 during his renual process recently.
Only saw it when licences came back.
All mine returned as normal six months ago ,same district.

Is this a new thing.

zeissman

Have the laws changed or is this a new rule that the garda have made up.
One of my mates had his 308 rebarreled to 6.5 creedmoor recently and another traded in his 25.06 for a 6.5 creedmoor and both had to apply for new licences.

meathstevie

zeissman wrote: »

Have the laws changed or is this a new rule that the garda have made up.
One of my mates had his 308 rebarreled to 6.5 creedmoor recently and another traded in his 25.06 for a 6.5 creedmoor and both had to apply for new licences.

As far as I know there have been no changes to relevant legislation with the exception of the Make It Up As You Go Along Act 2019 by the looks of it. The option of a substitution is there specifically for you to be able to exchange a firearm of a particular category for another of the same category ( restricted v. non-restricted ) without having to apply for a new licence.

270WIN

feartuath wrote: »

Not wanting to change the topic but one of the lads here had his round limit reduced from 250 to 100 during his renual process recently.
Only saw it when licences came back.
All mine returned as normal six months ago ,same district.

Is this a new thing.

Happened me recently on a shotgun sub. Super tried to reduce my allowance from 500 to 250. I resisted and eventually super gave in. It delayed the sub from a normal 4 weeks to 10 weeks.

Willywally

Opposite for me. I got my rounds increased from 750 to 1000 on my shotgun license. Just had a quick chat with the FO as he knows i only clay shoot. I explained it was cheaper to buy shells by the 1000 and some weekends i could go through 250 to 300.
As for the substitution issue, my experience is when your subbing like for like eg, shotgun to shotgun or .22lr rifle to .22lr rifle then you have to surrender the gun your selling as soon as you hand in the sub forms. At that stage you technically have no license at all as your existing license is cancelled and your new (sub) license hasnt been granted yet so in the eyes ofthe law you are in possession of an unlicensed firearm

BryanL

Willywally wrote: »

At that stage you technically have no license at all as your existing license is cancelled and your new (sub) license hasnt been granted yet so in the eyes ofthe law you are in possession of an unlicensed firearm

How is it cancelled if you're not granted the sub?

Was talking with the old guy in Murrays in Cork last season and they had guns for guys that missed the entire season waiting for subs.

ZiabR

Willywally wrote: »

Opposite for me. I got my rounds increased from 750 to 1000 on my shotgun license. Just had a quick chat with the FO as he knows i only clay shoot. I explained it was cheaper to buy shells by the 1000 and some weekends i could go through 250 to 300.
As for the substitution issue, my experience is when your subbing like for like eg, shotgun to shotgun or .22lr rifle to .22lr rifle then you have to surrender the gun your selling as soon as you hand in the sub forms. At that stage you technically have no license at all as your existing license is cancelled and your new (sub) license hasnt been granted yet so in the eyes ofthe law you are in possession of an unlicensed firearm

This is also my understanding. I am in the process of picking a new shotgun to sub to and I was told that when I fill in the Sub form, I have to surrender my current shotgun to the retailer. It kinda makes sense really. I mean what if I was to break the shotgun I am subbing from before I get my new Licence. The retailer would be left having to give me the new gun and I will be handing in a broken gun.

My current licence has a limit of 1000 on it as I only shoot clay and could shoot 250 over a weekend easily.

All of the above has me doubting whether I should even consider a new shotgun now...

ZiabR

BryanL wrote: »

Was talking with the old guy in Murrays in Cork last season and they had guns for guys that missed the entire season waiting for subs.

Thats disgraceful carry on. I mean a sub, like for like should be the easiest and fastest of all licence applications.

kunekunesika

When I went for a substitution, shotgun to 270 , I didn't hand in shotgun to dealer until i collected the 270. Dealer was surprised at the time.
Helped an elderly neighbour lately with his substitution of 233 to 308. Was asked for confirmation he had handed in 233 when submitting application. He told garda he needed to have a rifle in case of dogs while substitution was being processed, they said ok , send it up the line and see what is said. He's still waiting.
The norm seems to be hand in existing and include letter from rfo with sub application. This would be ok if the sub went through very quickly. Haven't heard of anyone being asked for the existing licence??

ZiabR

kunekunesika wrote: »

Dealer was surprised at the time.
He's still waiting.

How long did the first one take and how long has the neighbour been waiting?

kunekunesika

2 months for me.
He's waiting 6 weeks so far????

Would it have been quicker if we'd handed in the existing?
No real way of knowing.

ZiabR

So, just spoke with my neighbourhood Garda and he has confirmed the following.

There are delays in all stations throughout the country with regards to both new applications and substitutions. Reason being, they changed to civilian staff for processing all applications instead of Garda and this has pushed out lead-times for applications. He also confirmed outright that you do NOT have to surrender your current licence AND you can use the current firearm and current licence until your substitution has been granted (unless the firmarm dealer whats your current gun up front)

So I will go ahead with my substitution application when I find the gun for me.

Cass

Willywally wrote: »

As for the substitution issue, my experience is when your subbing like for like eg, shotgun to shotgun or .22lr rifle to .22lr rifle then you have to surrender the gun your selling as soon as you hand in the sub forms. At that stage you technically have no license at all as your existing license is cancelled and your new (sub) license hasnt been granted yet so in the eyes ofthe law you are in possession of an unlicensed firearm

That is not how it works. Substituting a license does not remove the authorisation you were granted when initially buying/licensing it.

When you apply for a substitution your current license remains the "default" authorisation throughout the process. The reason for this being if your substitution is refused you still have the license, hence authorisation for your firearm as per the original granting of the license.

When/if a substitution is granted your current license is still in effect until you receive the new license. One of my old FOs told me the current license (the one being subbed) remains "live" on PULSE for 14 days to allow for change of mind or some other issue which would prevent the substitution from going ahead. Whether that is true or not i cannot speak to and would happily rely on his word.

Even the Garda Commissioner has said that your current license is your authorisation until such a time as you receive your new license.

As for surrendering your firearm to an RFD this is not a legal requirement, and is only done as a precaution and deposit when you are buying from an RFD. If you are selling privately you are perfectly within your rights to have the firearm until the person buying it gets their license at which point you can sub your license to another firearm.

Cass

ZiabR wrote: »

....... He also confirmed outright that you do NOT have to surrender your current licence AND you can use the current firearm and current licence until your substitution has been granted...........

And that is in keeping with the Garda Commissioner's guidelines on the matter.

So it seems to be a local issue.

ZiabR

Yes, it is definitely a local issue. To anyone being asked to surrender both, I would stand your ground.

Vizzy

ZiabR wrote: »

So, just spoke with my neighbourhood Garda and he has confirmed the following.

There are delays in all stations throughout the country with regards to both new applications and substitutions. Reason being, they changed to civilian staff for processing all applications instead of Garda and this has pushed out lead-times for applications. He also confirmed outright that you do NOT have to surrender your current licence AND you can use the current firearm and current licence until your substitution has been granted (unless the firmarm dealer whats your current gun up front)

So I will go ahead with my substitution application when I find the gun for me.

I had the exact opposite experience. The civilian staff are there "9 to 5" and they can concentrate on processing the licence, rather than the regular FO who will be on a shift system, so you may be unlucky enough to hand in your application just when he has finished a shift and then goes on 2 weeks holidays, so he wont see the application for 3 weeks or more.

Peppa Cig

My last application issued two weeks ago was processed by FO so not sure if civilians processing across the board yet?

Currently have another application in currently so hoping not too much delay.

Cass

Vizzy wrote: »

I had the exact opposite experience. The civilian staff are there "9 to 5" and they can concentrate on processing the licence, rather than the regular FO who will be on a shift system, so you may be unlucky enough to hand in your application just when he has finished a shift and then goes on 2 weeks holidays, so he wont see the application for 3 weeks or more.

Not sure how all districts do it, but any FO in my district has always worked 9 to 5. As soon as they take the position of FO they go off shift work and stay on 9 to 5.

The last FO that worked shift work was about 7 to 8 years ago until he retired.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

Not sure how all districts do it, but any FO in my district has always worked 9 to 5. As soon as they take the position of FO they go off shift work and stay on 9 to 5.

The last FO that worked shift work was about 7 to 8 years ago until he retired.

Different in my local station. My local FO leaves them until she is on nights. Then she gets a chance to enter some onto the system.

Nekarsulm

ZiabR wrote: »

So, just spoke with my neighbourhood Garda and he has confirmed the following.

There are delays in all stations throughout the country with regards to both new applications and substitutions. Reason being, they changed to civilian staff for processing all applications instead of Garda and this has pushed out lead-times for applications..

Nothing new there, I know the civil servant who worked out of Divisional headquarters up here, and did all the Restricted licence applications in the Division.
They left as soon as they could get a transfer, as the Gardai postings are particularly unattractive.

Vizzy

Cass wrote: »

Not sure how all districts do it, but any FO in my district has always worked 9 to 5. As soon as they take the position of FO they go off shift work and stay on 9 to 5.

The last FO that worked shift work was about 7 to 8 years ago until he retired.

Unfortunately Cass, before the civilian started to deal with them, the previous 2 FO's that we had both worked similar hours to any other Garda in the station. One was actually the only Garda in a village station about 5 miles away so there was nearly never a chance to meet him. The other fella worked shift and anytime you would call you would be told that he is on nights this week or he is not on until next Tuesday. Then when you would call on the Tuesday, you would be told "sorry he is just gone out in the car".
Then, when they had dealt with the licence, the Super could be tied up with some other matter(e.g. a serious crime)
Don't get me wrong, they still managed to get the licences dealt with and I think the longest I waited for a renewal or a sub was about 4 weeks.
I am under no illusion that the issuing of licences is a long way down the list for most Gardaí.

LIFFY FISHING

kunekunesika wrote: »

When I went for a substitution, shotgun to 270 , I didn't hand in shotgun to dealer until i collected the 270. Dealer was surprised at the time.
Helped an elderly neighbour lately with his substitution of 233 to 308. Was asked for confirmation he had handed in 233 when submitting application. He told garda he needed to have a rifle in case of dogs while substitution was being processed, they said ok , send it up the line and see what is said. He's still waiting.
The norm seems to be hand in existing and include letter from rfo with sub application. This would be ok if the sub went through very quickly. Haven't heard of anyone being asked for the existing licence??

A.308 for Dogs??!!!...I am not surprised he is waiting I hope it wasnt granted...

Gorgeousgeorge

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

A.308 for Dogs??!!!...I am not surprised he is waiting I hope it wasnt granted...

big dogs...

kunekunesika

The 308 is for deer, as I clearly didn't state???