Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy railway

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120414864#Comment_120414864

Just to add that the journey time improvement in December was between Ballybrophy and Nenagh, where the service was accelerated by 15 minutes.

It had already been accelerated by 10 minutes between Limerick and Nenagh.

People need to bear in mind that this started off from a very low base, and frankly Iarnród Éireann did everything in their power to close the line, and it was down to local lobbying that the risk of closure was reversed.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416825#Comment_120416825

My rough impression is that there are about a dozen unattended accommodation corssings (i.e leading to one or more houses). These appear to be the main hzard, especially as I saw at least two with gates left open. Then there are farm crossings, probably well over 100. Farmers will keep gates closed if they have livestock, for obviious reasons. For others, the restricted speeds apply at lots of farm (field only) crossings. Eliminating these would seem to be impossible.

The price we pay for extreme risk aversion driven by the legal liability laws.

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416989#Comment_120416989

Irish Rails response to a recent parliamentary query on automating the 12 remaining gate keeper crossings on the line was quite negative and definitive.

Highly unlikely any government would put €58 million into the line any time soon. See screenshot attached.

Problem with the gate keepers is we cant have public holiday services or more than one service on Sundays.

Screenshot_20230329-215535_WhatsApp.jpg

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120417629#Comment_120417629

Iarnród Éireann have been quite definitive about a lot of things over the years, but that doesn’t mean that things won’t happen.

They also have a habit of gold plating the investments required.

At the end of the day, what happens will be down to political pressure.

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418423#Comment_120418423

I don't think political pressue will work to secure full automation and signilling upgrades on this line. Very different to second hand rail replacement...

I can't see the cost been overly imflated in this case either when it would also include the new  Train Protection System (TPS).

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120419452#Comment_120419452

Yes, difficult to know how to proceed the campaign for improvements to the line. I dont see why it all has to be bundled into one massive project of automation and resignalling. Automating individual gate keeper crossings over a period of 5 to 10 years and then looking at resignalling once the 12 crossings have been automated would be a more realistic approach in relation to securing funding.

There is no government going to pump €58 million into the line in one go. That's completely unrealistic.

Automating the gate keeper crossings is not just about speed of trains. It makes it easier to introduce additional services to the timetable. Particularly on Sundays and public holidays.

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418423#Comment_120418423

Yes, when I first read that response it felt very much dismissive of the PQ.

The group are still campaigning away, planning to regroup soon and find new approaches to improving the services on the line. At the end of the day the gate keeper crossings need to be dealt with sooner rather than later if the line is to have any real chance of improving.

The line has the support from all political stakeholders in the area. But it is difficult to get a commitment to make a plan for how to upgrade the line over the next 5, 10, 20 years

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120417629#Comment_120417629

But as far as I can see the real cause for such slow speeds is not so much the public manned crossings, but the unmanned accommodation and farm crossings. They could start by prosecuting people who leave gates open, except that some judge will fall for some cock-and-bull type excuse.

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120420005#Comment_120420005

It would actually make more sense for the line to be re-signalled first because that is the main reason for the speed limits. Limerick J-Waterford is I think max 40mph because of the signalling as well.

Automation of crossings now would require staff locally to lower them. Open to correction but no operational way to link them to control center while local signalling is in place.

Both could be done in sections together starting out from Limerick.

LXFlyer

For the record, I wasn’t remotely suggesting that the investment should happen all at once, but if we are to make public transport a viable alternative across the country, develop regional commuter services and make an effort to meet our climate emission targets, it will have to happen eventually.

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120420044#Comment_120420044

I mean there's Judge Devins in the west letting people off.

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2015/07/03/mayo-postman-cleared-over-train-collision/

https://www.mayonews.ie/?option=com_content&view=article&id=20088:train-crash-at-knockaphunta-again&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

https://www.mayonews.ie/news/1124-no-convictions-in-rail-case

https://www.mayonews.ie/news/20088-train-crash-at-knockaphunta-again

Geuze

For my own information, how many lines in Ireland still have staff-operated level crossings?

Is this common in FE, DE, UK, etc?

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120420243#Comment_120420243

The main reasons the local group were requesting the gate keeper crossings are dealt with first is that they have been told the reason there is only one service on Sundays and no public holiday services is down to the gate keeper staff.

It will also save €1.4 million in annual running costs once the gates have been automated. This money could then be put towards other line improvements. Signalling, closing accommodation crossings, additional services etc

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120420063#Comment_120420063

Sorry,, but this is quite wrong. THere are loads of 30 and 40 mph restrictions on the line whihc have nothing to do with the signalling: they are not anywhere near block posts but are near unsignalled crossings. The line limit on Limerick Junction-Waterford is 50, not 40. However it is punctuated by loads of lower limits for much the same reasons as the Nenagh Lline.

Autometed crossings should be capable of being monitored and controlled by existing signalling centres. This operation is independent of normal CTC signalling and the same should apply to lines with ETS-related signalling.

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423048#Comment_120423048

There are farm crossings on most lines and very few very low limits for trains so unless there is awful visibility comapred to other lines one might ask are all these restrictions justified.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425941#Comment_120425941

Exactly, youv'e nailed it.

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425941#Comment_120425941

The Kilmastulla valley on the section between Nenagh and Birdhill stations has a few different issues. 4 accommodation gates on (very minor) public roads. Always left open.

The track follows the course of the Kilmastulla river for a section here so it's not close to being straight. So it is understandable that this section would be particularly limited speed wise. Then between Birdhill and Castleconnell you have the majority of the gate keeper crossings. I think 9 of the 12 gate keeper crossings are all on that section of the track so I assume there are time penalties for each of them.

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425953#Comment_120425953

Right so its public roads. Firstly we know IE don't like to prosecute miss use so not a surprise. Before anyone says I know its not as simple.

The new warning light system been rolled out would probably work here and not massively expensive.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422582#Comment_120422582

Another approach could be to seek closure of existing automatic crossings by provision of bridges, there are locations where a single bridge and a bit of ancillary road could see the closure of multiple crossings. This would free up the automatic equipment for use at gate keeper crossings, doubling the benefits and more bang for your buck. There may be broader support for a bridge as it also benefits those with no interest in the rail service.

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426272#Comment_120426272

A bridge would certainly be the preferred option but the terrain and density of some of the crossings makes it unfeasible. Would probably also make it financially unviable.

As you can see in the attached screenshot the vast majority of these (9/12) manned level crossings are densely located between Castlesconell Station and Killonan junction.

The other 3 are East of Cloughjordan, 1 just after Cloughjordan, 1 just after Roscrea and one maybe halfway between Roscrea and Ballybrophy.

I think it's a reasonable and sensible argument that the next phase of rehabilitating this line is to deman these crossings and automation of the 12 level crossings.

This would reduce running costs, simplify management of the line, allow for a more flexible approach from NTA and Irish Rail when discussing additional services. On weekends and public holidays in particular.

It's going to have to happen sooner or later if the line is to have any hope of being useful to people.

Screenshot_20230402-091002_Samsung Internet.jpg

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430299#Comment_120430299

Looking at the LC on the R445, it should be straightforward enough to build a bridge on the northern side of the track. You could also connect up local roads to close the LCs either side of that one. That's three LCs closed and equipment freed up to automate others. That would be a big improvement to that section. Yes it would be expensive but would likely be better value than automating a couple of manual crossings (not exactly cheap either) and leaving other LCs as they are.

Markcheese

Can I play devils advocate for a minute ..

Why go to all the trouble ? I know theyve just replaced the track ,

but they could have more cheaply put 4 or so coaches on the route - it'd been quicker whizzing up the motorway , cheaper to run , no crossing to worry about ..

And could have had stops in more convenient places in nenagh and limerick

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440198#Comment_120440198

I dont disagree with you at all. The problem is that Irish Rail or the NTA dont seem to be interested in doing anything at the moment. After all the recent works the line is basically as it was beforehand. Some time savings but the exact same number of services using the line. Not exactly sweating the asset.

Attached a recent pic of the line from just West of Cloughjordan looking towards Nenagh. Keeper Hill in the background.

20230402_124211.jpg

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441018#Comment_120441018

because nothing would be achieved apart from creating more road transport, more cars as the rail users are unlikely to transfer to the 4 coaches and higher carbon fines.

ohographite

The bus wouldn't offer a quicker alternative to every journey you can make on the railway.

For example, it is quicker to travel from Dublin to Roscrea by train than it is to travel by bus. The bus route I'm referring to is JJ Kavanagh route 735, which takes at least 1 hour 50 minutes to get from the city centre of Dublin to Roscrea(it sometimes takes 2 hours or more) The train takes 1 hour and 22 minutes, so even though Heuston station isn't in the city centre of Dublin, it would still work out as quicker than the bus to get the train from Roscrea to Heuston station and then get a bus or a luas to the centre of Dublin.

The same bus also stops in Nenagh, but it also takes more time to get from Dublin to Nenagh than the train does. The bus takes at least 2 hours and 40 minutes, and sometimes 3 hours, but the train takes 1 hour 55 minutes.

I also think that the train journey is more scenic than the road journey.

Markcheese

So why does anyone bother with the jj kavanaghs coach ?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120453301#Comment_120453301

presumably the same reason why anyone bothers with any bus service?

or train service?

dowlingm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120453053#Comment_120453053

during bustitutions for rail work it has been the case for years that buses have to wait at stations to match the rail timetable. The Roscrea northbound timetable, having only a short part of the Branch to traverse, is hardly representative of the service competitiveness as a whole.

ohographite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120458000#Comment_120458000

I don't mean to be rude, but I don't see why that stops my point from standing. My point was that if the Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy railway was replaced with a bus service, it would not give a quicker alternative to every journey you can make on the railway. I know that some journeys would be quicker by bus, but not all of them.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120458000#Comment_120458000

Frankly that is irrelevant, given the previous low speeds on the railway.

Since the recent changes, the railway is now faster than all of the local bus services along the railway line, namely the Bus Éireann 72, 323 and JJ Kavanagh 735 for any trip.