Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy railway

Deedsie

tabbey wrote: »

The crossing on the map, Cappadine at mp 39.25, is a public road, it is supposed to be open to road traffic, except when a train is due.

Would this be one of the manually operated gates closed everytime a train is passing? And one that could conceivably be cctv automated etc

tabbey

Deedsie wrote: »

Would this be one of the manually operated gates closed everytime a train is passing?

Yes, unless it is an automated barrier.

Deedsie

tabbey wrote: »

Yes, unless it is an automated barrier.

This is the label it has on the Irish Rail live map:

XN125 Cappadine (U)

There is a fairly steep incline either side of it.

Deedsie

goingnowhere wrote: »

CX
Gates normally open to road traffic, these are staffed

U
Is user worked

Economics101 wrote: »

A User would be anyone who uses the crossing. Typically such a crossing might provide access to one or two houses and nearly all users would be residents of those houses or at least locals. There would normally not be any through traffic and most such crossings are on rural cul-de-sacs (or is it culs-de-sac, or s that a bit rude?)

Going by these posts there is no specific person in charge of XN125 Cappadine (U) so it could easily just be left open at all times even while a train is passing. Thats a ridiculous situation and no wonder the speeds have to be kept so low.

That situation surely needs to be remedied.

Economics101

Irish Rail have made a lot of effort to improve signage and safety at User-worked crossings. There have been some locations where the users are habitually negligent in terms of leaving gates open, maybe some places on the Nenagh line. The worst stretch I know of is on the Ballina branch where there have been fatalities due to non-compliance, which continues even subsequent to fatal accidents. Irish Rail have been let down by the courts when it comes to enforcement.

For the most part on the rail system, gates are kept shut.

Deedsie

7 User crossings on the line. Majority between Castleconnell and Nenagh.

Would these have a big impact on speed restrictions?

The automatic/manual/agricultural ones are surely deemed safer than the User crossings.

KILLONAN SIGNAL BOX

XN184 Scart Public Rd (CX)
XN177 Annacotty Public Rd (CX)
XN174 Clyduff Public Rd. (CX)
XN170 Richill Public Rd. (CCTV)
XN168 Lisnagry (CX)
XN167 Reilly Mrs./Kiely E./Enright D
XN166 Quinn S.
XN165 Lisnagry Automatic (HB4-1995)
XN164 Sallymount Public Rd (CX)
XN163 Stradbally Public Rd. (CX)

CASTLECONNELL Station

XN160 Castleconnell Public Rd (CX)
XN159 Spa Public Rd. (CX)
XN152 Coolready (U) (CCTV monitored)
XN141 Birdhill (U)
XN139 Francis Ryan

BIRDHILL Station

XN131 Cappanakeady (U)
XN125 Cappadine (U)
XN122 Ballinteenoe (U)
XZ003 Silvermines
XN095 Quill D.

NENAGH Station

XN072 Flaherty T.

CLOUGHJORDAN Station

XN057 Cavanagh T.
XN052 Cooraclaven Public Rd (A)
XN044 Cleary J.
XN043 Clonlisk No1 (U)
XN036 Bergin J./Brochick J./Kennedy N
XN035 Bergin S./Bergin J. Clonbrennan

ROSCREA Station

XN022 Ashberry Public Rd (A)
XN012 Quakers Rd Public Rd (A)
XN006 Bergin K./Kelly J./Fitzpatrick (U)

BALLYBROPHY Station

tabbey

I took a look at some of these crossings today.

I was shocked to see that Cappadine and several others are user worked crossings on a public road. This type of crossing is most inappropriate in such a situation.
User worked crossings may be ok linking one side of a farm to another across the railway, where the farmer is clearly the offender if the gates are left open. At a stretch they may be tolerable accessing a cul de sac. They are absolutely unacceptable on a cross country road, where the population at large, come and go as they please.

When I came to one today, I crossed where the gates were open, not wishing to interfere with local custom and practice.
At one crossing, cappanaskeady, (near mile post 40.75), the gates were closed with contractors vans beside the track, a worker opened the gates for myself and another motorist.
I also came across a crossing on which one gate was open and the other closed.
A couple were closed as per regulations.
Nearer to Limerick, similar small lanes, such as Sallymount (near mp 48.25) had proper manned level crossings, probably because of greater population density and consequently more traffic.
It would be better to have ungated crossings on lanes such as Cappadine, with some sort of traffic management like speed ramps. Farmers gates are out of place on a through public road.

The_Wanderer

If you come across a user worked level crossing with the gates open, you should ALWAYS closed them, irrespective of "local custom and practice". The crossing in question has a 25mph limit over it.

These crossings are safe if used correctly and an enhanced safety system is being rolled out at such crossings at the moment with the decision support system. See https://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/2021-Photos/April-2021/i-zQWMh3P

Markcheese

a couple of cameras pointed at cars crossing would help - as well as a simple flashing red when a train is approaching , might even be possible to have a simple electric lock on the gates for same time period - without needing a full level crossing -

Deedsie

I have crossed the gates at Cappadine several times in the last few years. Never once have the gates been closed. I didnt close them either as I was unaware of the guidelines.

Presume the speed limit for the trains along the sections where there are User operated gates is limited to 25mph (40 km/h)

They have to be the most dangerous crossings on the line.

Agriculture crossings even if left open its less likely farm traffic or livestock would be crossing when a train is passing than on a public road. It is madness.

Manual crossings even though they are expensive at least they are safe for trains to pass.

Obviously automatic crossings controlled from a central point are the most suitable where crossings cant be bridged orneliminated outright.

Deedsie

https://twitter.com/Gramaiscaigh/status/1399870329141477379?s=19

If you were looking for a microcosm example of the running and developmemt and genuine lack of any effort to sort this line out and make it into a useable railway then that pic sums it up for me.

"Ah it'll be grand. Sure no one uses the line anyway"

L1011

There's a huge repainting project for those warnings currently - is that pic actually current or from someone's archive?

Deedsie

L1011 wrote: »

There's a huge repainting project for those warnings currently - is that pic actually current or from someone's archive?

Not a clue. Just thought it was funny and people here might get a chuckle out of it.

SeanW

A few questions come to mind.
1) It always seemed bizarre to me that the trains have to curve South towards Ballybrophy. How much would it cost to have a North facing curve to run trains to Portlaoise?
2) If money for the above could be found, could savings be made by closing Ballybrophy?
3) Does Ballybrophy have much/any use as a local station? Or is it only there because of the Nenagh branch?

Deedsie

SeanW wrote: »

A few questions come to mind.
1) It always seemed bizarre to me that the trains have to curve South towards Ballybrophy. How much would it cost to have a North facing curve to run trains to Portlaoise?
2) If money for the above could be found, could savings be made by closing Ballybrophy?
3) Does Ballybrophy have much/any use as a local station? Or is it only there because of the Nenagh branch?

As I am sure you can appreciate the Ballybrophy curve has been discussed regularly on this thread.

You are 100% correct it would be better to have the line joining the main line North of Ballybrophy and removing that stop entirely.

Its clear from this thread however that the curve at Ballybrophy is far from the biggest issue facing the line.

126 crossing on 73 km of rail line between Killonan Junction and Ballybrophy.

Made up of level crossings, mostly manually operated which contributes massively to the costs of running the line.

There are also random user operated crossings on public roads that are habitually left open.

Multiple agricultural accomodation crossings.

The line has still 30% jointed track rather than the standard continuous welded rail.

There are also signalling issues and sightline issues.

All of this contributes to desperately low speed limits. Which makes it highly unlikely that passengers will choose to use the train.

So the real problem this line faces is that it hasnt received funding to target the above problems.

If the line is to survive then the time has come to invest in the terrible infrastructure along the line and to sort out the user operated crossings.

The_Wanderer

SeanW wrote: »

3) Does Ballybrophy have much/any use as a local station? Or is it only there because of the Nenagh branch?

Putting a north curve in at Ballybrophy is a waste of time and money, especially with MU operation a quick reversal is all that is needed.

Ballybrophy is a railhead for Borris in Ossory and Rathdowney and gets substantial peak hour business to/from Dublin.

Economics101

The_Wanderer wrote: »

Putting a north curve in at Ballybrophy is a waste of time and money, especially with MU operation a quick reversal is all that is needed.
.

Thant's true for trains heading from Nenagh to Ballybrophy and on towards Dublin. In the opposite direction you need a double reversal. A new facing crossover on the Dublin side of BallyB would solve this.

Del.Monte

The_Wanderer wrote: »

Putting a north curve in at Ballybrophy is a waste of time and money, especially with MU operation a quick reversal is all that is needed.

Ballybrophy is a railhead for Borris in Ossory and Rathdowney and gets substantial peak hour business to/from Dublin.

A north facing curve should have been done years ago and Ballybrophy closed.

tabbey

Del.Monte wrote: »

A north facing curve should have been done years ago and Ballybrophy closed.

I wouldn't close Ballybrophy entirely, the number of cars parked there, pre covid at least, is evidence of the considerable commuter traffic. It is midway between Rathdowney and Borris in Ossary. I suspect a lot of the passenger traffic here have driven from Roscrea or further. Especially as the motorway toll applies to vehicles going further towards Dublin.
But you are right about a direct curve, the people of Roscrea, Nenagh and hinterlands are long overdue a decent service by ICR, direct to Dublin, at least three or four times a day.

Deedsie

tabbey wrote: »

I wouldn't close Ballybrophy entirely, the number of cars parked there, pre covid at least, is evidence of the considerable commuter traffic. It is midway between Rathdowney and Borris in Ossary. I suspect a lot of the passenger traffic here have driven from Roscrea or further. Especially as the motorway toll applies to vehicles going further towards Dublin.
But you are right about a direct curve, the people of Roscrea, Nenagh and hinterlands are long overdue a decent service by ICR, direct to Dublin, at least three or four times a day.

I can tell you for a fact and have done it myself many times that lots of commuters from Nenagh drive to Ballybrophy and get the train from there.

Which when you consider the fact there is a train station in the centre of Nenagh Town with an enormous car park it is very frustrating that people have to drive 70 km rather than just hop on the train in their own area.

The_Wanderer

Deedsie wrote: »

I can tell you for a fact and have done it myself many times that lots of commuters from Nenagh drive to Ballybrophy and get the train from there.

Which when you consider the fact there is a train station in the centre of Nenagh Town with an enormous car park it is very frustrating that people have to drive 70 km rather than just hop on the train in their own area.

Why do you drive to Ballybrophy for a train when Thurles is closer and has pretty much an hourly service to Dublin, which Bally doesn't.

If the branch train times don't suit (i.e. need to be in Dublin pre 1000) I always drive to Thurles, simply for the far better choice of trains up and down compared to Ballybrophy.

The_Wanderer

Economics101 wrote: »

Thant's true for trains heading from Nenagh to Ballybrophy and on towards Dublin. In the opposite direction you need a double reversal. A new facing crossover on the Dublin side of BallyB would solve this.

Obviously yes that would be needed. I original post was typed in a rush as had other things to do. The point was the cost (€x m) of providing a direct curve isn't needed in a multiple unit operated railway and Ballybrophy can still be served.

Providing a facing crossover so Down Trains can access the Nenagh Bay Platform is all that is needed.

The ONLY reason I can see a direct curve being provided was IF Foynes reopened and the traffic levels required trains to Dublin to use the Nenagh branch instead of going via the congested Limerick Jct. route, then a curve would be required.

Deedsie

The_Wanderer wrote: »

Why do you drive to Ballybrophy for a train when Thurles is closer and has pretty much an hourly service to Dublin, which Bally doesn't.

If the branch train times don't suit (i.e. need to be in Dublin pre 1000) I always drive to Thurles, simply for the far better choice of trains up and down compared to Ballybrophy.

Habit is the real answer. Prefer driving on the motorway rather than via latteragh bends etc

There is very little difference in the journey times. And at Ballybrophy you are a few stations closer to Dublin. Would feel strange travelling South to go to Dublin.

I dunno that might not make sense to others just the way I always looked at it.

Would far prefer to be boarding a train in Nenagh and not having to look at a car.

Del.Monte

Proper, planned decentralisation is where it's at and no amount of tinkering with things at Ballybrophy is going to improve anything. The line has been dying for as long as I've been interested in railways (40+ years) and it's time to either bite the bullet or rip it up.

Calahonda52

The_Wanderer wrote: »

Why do you drive to Ballybrophy for a train when Thurles is closer and has pretty much an hourly service to Dublin, which Bally doesn't.

If the branch train times don't suit (i.e. need to be in Dublin pre 1000) I always drive to Thurles, simply for the far better choice of trains up and down compared to Ballybrophy.

The critical issue for me is the lack of parking in Thurles

The_Wanderer

Calahonda52 wrote: »

The critical issue for me is the lack of parking in Thurles

I've never had an issue with parking at Thurles, with its two car parke, even pre covid. On the other hand parking at Ballybrophy is always problematic with no space in the small car park.

Deedsie

The_Wanderer wrote: »

I've never had an issue with parking at Thurles, with its two car parke, even pre covid. On the other hand parking at Ballybrophy is always problematic with no space in the small car park.

I think there are plans to redevelop and extend the car park at Ballybrophy this year.

Deedsie

Del.Monte wrote: »

Proper, planned decentralisation is where it's at and no amount of tinkering with things at Ballybrophy is going to improve anything. The line has been dying for as long as I've been interested in railways (40+ years) and it's time to either bite the bullet or rip it up.

As much as id regret it if the line does close. I think future generations in North Tipperary etc will really regret it.

But overall I do agree with your point. Bite the bullet and invest or close it up.

IE 222

Is there any surveys/numbers on the amount of people travelling by car or bus from Nenagh & Roscrea to Dublin or Limerick.

Deedsie

IE 222 wrote: »

Is there any surveys/numbers on the amount of people travelling by car or bus from Nenagh & Roscrea to Dublin or Limerick.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.tipperaryinfo.ie/sites/default/files/Commuting%2520and%2520Jobs%2520Profile%2520Tipperary%2520Local%2520Authority%2520September%25202018.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiDqMyHk_3wAhWKsRQKHbrcAG4QFjAIegQIDBAC&usg=AOvVaw3i1CImXdidL9sUA_KCZTsS

That would just give you an idea of the numbers travelling from Nenagh area to Limerick