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International Men's Day 19th November
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This thread is going well. Maybe i am just too stupid to understand but why exactly is there issues against it?
It's not like its a fly by night and was just recently thought of it has traces back to at least the 60's.
source = https://internationalmensday.com/founders-statement/.International Men’s Day on the 19 November was founded in 1999 by Dr Jerome Teelucksingh a history lecturer at University of the West Indies in Trinidad Tabago. Interestingly calls for an International Men’s Day (IMD) have been going on since at least the 1960’s when it was reported in the New York Times, Feb 24 1969 that “Many men have been agitating privately to make February 23 International Men’s Day, the equivalent of March 8, which is International Women’s day“ This Day for women was first inaugurated in 1909
Since the 1960’s there have been persistent international calls for the creation of an IMD, calls in the form of rhetorical questions about gender equality, eg. “Why do women have an international celebration and not men?” and more commonly in the form of statements like “Men’s contributions and concerns deserve a day of recognition in their own right” i.e. not merely by analogy with International Women’s Day.
The goal's seem noble but i would also say if men disagree with the current format of it then it is us who can drive the dialogue on it.
source = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_DayThe objectives of celebrating an International Men's Day, set out in "The Six Pillars of International Men's Day", include focusing on men's and boys' health, improving gender relations, promoting gender equality, and highlighting male role models.[8][9] It is an occasion to celebrate boys and men's achievements and contributions, in particular for their contributions to community, family, marriage, and child care. The broader and ultimate aim of the event is to promote basic humanitarian values.0 -
It's not meaningless though and it will be used to spread info about men's health, men's issues and celebrate the men who have made a positive contribution to the world around us - those who make contributions to many people and those everyday heroes and mentors who inspire their family and friends.suicide_circus wrote: »you know a "day" is meaningless toss when you need to be told about by the media
I don't think any of that is meaningless. Do you?0 -
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El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Just to be clear, I said "Like my mate who found out about male suicide rates. She has a positive attitude towards men's mental health and takes the issue seriously now. Job's oxo, wouldn't you agree?"
And you don't agree the job's oxo because you don't agree with "the methodology". The methodology was simply telling her the facts that men commit suicide at a high rate. What's wrong with the methodology in that case? Who was hurt in that instance and why would you oppose what happened in that instance?
I simply don’t know enough about the context of that particular incident or the people involved so I didn’t comment specifically on it one way or the other. Instead I restricted my commentary to your opinions and your ideas regarding the utility of initiatives such as IMD. If that’s how you choose to approach it, then no, I don’t agree that the jobs oxo because the end doesn’t justify the means - anyone who is critical of the idea of IMD, you see them as part of the problem which you’re choosing to view through the lens of identity politics.
I don’t agree with that approach. I find it divisive. It doesn’t get information out there, instead it just pits people against each other. There is an element which appears to be missing from your strategy in your efforts to get the information that’s important to you out there, and that is you’re not listening to feedback you’re getting which is pointing out the flaws in your strategy. Instead you’re simply handwaving criticism away as “you’re part of the problem”, “you should use IMD to talk about that”, etc, when it must be obvious that if people don’t agree with something, they’re not going to validate it or encourage it by participating in it and perpetuating it!
The job isn’t oxo, for many reasons, and they’ll be the same reasons when it’s women’s day, or any other day, because ultimately what you’re ignoring is the fact that while you’re busy highlighting issues, those issues aren’t limited to people on the basis of whatever identity is being promoted today, or tomorrow, or whenever their day rolls around that they have your blessing to talk about the issues which affect them in their daily lives, and someone else is “the problem”. That’s only setting people up against each other, and some people buy into that, but most people don’t, because they’re not interested in promoting division in society, which is what your “if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem” philosophy attempts to do.0 -
i dont think it does any of that, i think its a pile of ****El_Duderino 09 wrote: »It's not meaningless though and it will be used to spread info about men's health, men's issues and celebrate the men who have made a positive contribution to the world around us - those who make contributions to many people and those everyday heroes and mentors who inspire their family and friends.
I don't think any of that is meaningless. Do you?0 -
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The kinds of people who complain about it are the types who would be first to complain if it didn't exist.
Most people aren’t aware of it’s existence in the first place. That doesn’t mean they’re not aware of the issues campaigners are using to claim there’s a need for these days to exist.0 -
I never knew men had their own day. So hooray to us men for being well men I guess. And I was going to post an opinion of why men today have so much mental issues about understanding what it is to be a man.But then realized my beliefs are of a retro fashion, so will just stop it there. I am in too good of a mood tonight for arguments.0
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One eyed Jack wrote: »I simply don’t know enough about the context of that particular incident or the people involved so I didn’t comment specifically on it one way or the other. Instead I restricted my commentary to your opinions and your ideas regarding the utility of initiatives such as IMD. If that’s how you choose to approach it, then no, I don’t agree that the jobs oxo because the end doesn’t justify the means - anyone who is critical of the idea of IMD, you see them as part of the problem which you’re choosing to view through the lens of identity politics.
I don’t agree with that approach. I find it divisive. It doesn’t get information out there, instead it just pits people against each other. There is an element which appears to be missing from your strategy in your efforts to get the information that’s important to you out there, and that is you’re not listening to feedback you’re getting which is pointing out the flaws in your strategy. Instead you’re simply handwaving criticism away as “you’re part of the problem”, “you should use IMD to talk about that”, etc, when it must be obvious that if people don’t agree with something, they’re not going to validate it or encourage it by participating in it and perpetuating it!
The job isn’t oxo, for many reasons, and they’ll be the same reasons when it’s women’s day, or any other day, because ultimately what you’re ignoring is the fact that while you’re busy highlighting issues, those issues aren’t limited to people on the basis of whatever identity is being promoted today, or tomorrow, or whenever their day rolls around that they have your blessing to talk about the issues which affect them in their daily lives, and someone else is “the problem”. That’s only setting people up against each other, and some people buy into that, but most people don’t, because they’re not interested in promoting division in society, which is what your “if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem” philosophy attempts to do.
LOL. What could possibly be wrong with the incident as I describes it?
Your opposition to IMD is pretty petty. I get it, you don't like anyone getting any gain of any kind from promoting a social cause. And the ends don’t justify the means even if the means are that it moves closer to finding solutions for real problems that effect real people. Whether it’s individual men being encouraged to go to the doctor and get help for a health problem, or shaping attitudes so the public is more aware of the problems and more supportive of spending public money on the services for men, or just taking a minute to appreciate the men who improved your life and maybe tell them you admire them For what they’ve done. The ends don’t justify the means in your view. I get it.
But I disagree. I think it’s good to appreciate the men in your life, encourage men to get help for problems and have services to help men who need help. And IMD is a great opportunity to publicise those things and hemp make them a reality.0 -
suicide_circus wrote: »i dont think it does any of that, i think its a pile of ****
I disagree. So does everyone who gets involved in IMD.
Those are the stated goals and are evident in the events that happen on the day.
Lots of the opposition is just generic cynicism. Activism works.0 -
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You really shouldn't have posted this in After Hours if you were expecting a balanced response.0
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you should write for HallmarkEl_Duderino 09 wrote: »I disagree. So does everyone who gets involved in IMD.
Those are the stated goals and are evident in the events that happen on the day.
Lots of the opposition is just generic cynicism. Activism works.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Most people aren’t aware of it’s existence in the first place. That doesn’t mean they’re not aware of the issues campaigners are using to claim there’s a need for these days to exist.
You know what other people do and don’t know now? Lol
You know the motivations of people you’ve never met, you know what the general population knows. You see yourself as a knowledgeable person.
The fact is that lots of people don’t know this stuff. A man in his 60 in my life didn’t know what the prostate was (and he got a massive shock when he had to go for a prostate exam). You might have thought prostate awareness was ubiquitous too, but it isn’t.
You might have all the info, but not everyone else has.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »LOL. What could possibly be wrong with the incident as I describes it?
What part of “I don’t know enough about the people involved or the context in order to comment one way or the other”, are you having difficulty with?El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Your opposition to IMD is pretty petty. I get it, you don't like anyone getting any gain of any kind from promoting a social cause. And the ends don’t justify the means even if the means are that it moves closer to finding solutions for real problems that effect real people. Whether it’s individual men being encouraged to go to the doctor and get help for a health problem, or shaping attitudes so the public is more aware of the problems and more supportive of spending public money on the services for men, or just taking a minute to appreciate the men who improved your life and maybe tell them you admire them For what they’ve done. The ends don’t justify the means in your view. I get it.
But I disagree. I think it’s good to appreciate the men in your life, encourage men to get help for problems and have services to help men who need help. And IMD is a great opportunity to publicise those things and hemp make them a reality.
IMD or any other ’day’ doesn’t do any of that though. It’s simply a divisive initiative which pits people against each other, or as you put it rather simply - “if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem”. It’s not based upon an interest in men’s welfare because the vast majority of people who are critical of the idea are men who you’re saying are part of the problem, leading me to conclude that the only reason for you to promote the idea is serving your own interests.
The things you wish to claim credit for and associate with IMD were happening long before IMD was ever even thought of as an afterthought to complement IWD which is just another initiative which claims to promote women’s interests, but only the interests of women who agree with the initiative, as anyone who disagrees is also of course - “part of the problem” :rolleyes:0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »What part of “I don’t know enough about the people involved or the context in order to comment one way or the other”, are you having difficulty with?
Great question. I'm having difficulty with the fact tat you pretend to know the motivations of people who support IMD (and other social causes) people you've never met and know nothing about. I give you the salient details of the story and suddenly you need more information about the context and the individuals to make any comment. Lol.
So the direct answer to your question is the disingenuousness.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »
The things you wish to claim credit for and associate with IMD were happening long before IMD was ever even thought of...
So do you disagree with those things happening on other days or just on IMD?0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Great question. I'm having difficulty with the fact tat you pretend to know the motivations of people who support IMD (and other social causes) people you've never met and know nothing about. I give you the salient details of the story and suddenly you need more information about the context and the individuals to make any comment. Lol.
So the direct answer to your question is the disingenuousness.
Yes, it’s as though in spite of your assumptions, I know more about one group of people than I know about another group of people - I have enough information and experience to give an opinion on one group of people, I don’t have enough information and experience to give an opinion on another group of people.
Frankly I’m simply not interested in commenting on your anecdote which you have related from your subjective perspective. It doesn’t change what I know of the first group of people. I mean, if you really wanted me to comment, I’d say they were a pack of dry balls that a person can’t make a joke, and they can’t take a joke in the spirit in which it was intended, but that would be just my take on it based upon my experience which couldn’t be more different. I’d laugh at something like that, because I’d know it was intended as a joke. I’d think the three lads who hopped off her were awfully over-sensitive, but then you did say she is now informed about the statistics and so on, so it seems she took then hopping off her as well intentioned and would probably tell me I read the situation all wrong.
That’s why I said I didn’t know the people involved well enough or the context to be able to offer an opinion one way or the other on that particular situation, and why I can say I do know enough about the people promoting initiatives like IMD and the context in which they’re promoting IMD, to know they aren’t doing it for anyone else but themselves. It’s like you said - you obviously regard yourself as part of the solution, and because I disagree with you, you regard me as part of the problem. That’s an immediately divisive stance, and I didn’t put it there, you did, by appointing yourself the arbiter of good and bad ideas which should be promoted in the name of social progress. I don’t see your divisive strategy as particularly progressive, but then I value social cohesion over perpetuating social division and characterising people as either part of the solution or part of the problem based upon whether or not they agree with me.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Yes, it’s as though in spite of your assumptions, I know more about one group of people than I know about another group of people - I have enough information and experience to give an opinion on one group of people, I don’t have enough information and experience to give an opinion on another group of people.
Frankly I’m simply not interested in commenting on your anecdote which you have related from your subjective perspective. It doesn’t change what I know of the first group of people. I mean, if you really wanted me to comment, I’d say they were a pack of dry balls that a person can’t make a joke, and they can’t take a joke in the spirit in which it was intended, but that would be just my take on it based upon my experience which couldn’t be more different. I’d laugh at something like that, because I’d know it was intended as a joke. I’d think the three lads who hopped off her were awfully over-sensitive, but then you did say she is now informed about the statistics and so on, so it seems she took then hopping off her as well intentioned and would probably tell me I read the situation all wrong.
That’s why I said I didn’t know the people involved well enough or the context to be able to offer an opinion one way or the other on that particular situation, and why I can say I do know enough about the people promoting initiatives like IMD and the context in which they’re promoting IMD, to know they aren’t doing it for anyone else but themselves. It’s like you said - you obviously regard yourself as part of the solution, and because I disagree with you, you regard me as part of the problem. That’s an immediately divisive stance, and I didn’t put it there, you did, by appointing yourself the arbiter of good and bad ideas which should be promoted in the name of social progress. I don’t see your divisive strategy as particularly progressive, but then I value social cohesion over perpetuating social division and characterising people as either part of the solution or part of the problem based upon whether or not they agree with me.
Lol. You claim to know "the group" who support IMD. Your hubris is Interesting if nothing else. I didn't even know we were a group.
You don't want to comment on the incident I mentioned because it's a classic case of how people chat, share information and learn from each other -"hopping off" each other as you call it. It was a simple, good humoured chat and she was genuinely interested to have the info.
You claim to be In favour of solving problems (but not if they're tailored to specific groups). But you seem primarily Interested in the people doing something than the people who need the help.
I'm glad most people aren't so cynical as to stand in the way of progress and Contribute to the problems. Most people will do nothing because they don't care one way or the other. Some will support initiatives like IMD and a few will oppose it for whatever reasons. Luckily there are lots of engaged people who will do the right thing and support IMD because they care about the issues and the people who stand to benefit down the line.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Lol. You claim to know "the group" who support IMD. Your hubris is Interesting if nothing else. I didn't even know we were a group.
I’m all for addressing people by whatever pronouns they prefer, and it’s either that or dissociative identity disorder, but your claim that you didn’t know ‘we’ were a group?
Which one of you didn’t know you were a group? :pac:El_Duderino 09 wrote: »You don't want to comment on the incident I mentioned because it's a classic case of how people chat, share information and learn from each other -"hopping off" each other as you out it. It was a simple, good humoured chat and she was genuinely interested to have the info.
No, I explained to you why I didn’t comment on the incident you mentioned. You’re explaining to me why you think I didn’t comment, even though I went so far as to say if I had to comment, I still wouldn’t be sure I was making the right call because maybe they’re not a pack of dryballs after all. They sound like a pack of dryballs, but y’know, that’s just my take on it. Like I said - I don’t know the people involved well enough and I don’t know the circumstances or context. Based upon my experiences of what you’re describing though, I’m gonna go with they all sound like a pack of dryballs.El_Duderino 09 wrote: »You claim to be In favour of solving problems (but not if they're tailored to specific groups). But you seem primarily Interested in the people doing something than the people who need the help.
I'm glad most people aren't so cynical as to stand Im the way of progress and Contribute to the problems. Most people will do nothing because they don't care one way or the other. Some will support initiatives like IMD and a few will oppose it for whatever reasons. Luckily there are lots of educates people who will do the right thing and support IMD because they care about the issues and the people who stand to benefit down the line.
You see this is the part that’s simply not true! People do plenty for each other every single day, whether it’s men, women or children, husbands, wives (ex-husbands and ex-wives even), boyfriends, girlfriends, brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, friends, relatives, neighbours and relations, they all help each other out, we all do. Everyone does it already. The cynic is the person who needs these ‘days’ the most, to have someone recognise their contributions to society, which is generally fcukall, because they are of the belief in your whole no such thing as a truly altruistic act bollocks and people don’t do anything without getting something in return. Most people do not think like you do.
You’ve appointed yourself the arbiter again of ’the right thing’ and doubled down on it by implying it’s lots of educated people will do the right thing, as though people who aren’t doing the right thing are ill-educated, not their fault, it falls to you and people like you to educate people and get the information out there! Come down El_D out of there, you’re so far up your own rear end I can see the soles of your boots! :pac:
(That’s a joke btw, a classic case of how people chat, share information and learn from each other)0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »I’m all for addressing people by whatever pronouns they prefer, and it’s either that or dissociative identity disorder, but your claim that you didn’t know ‘we’ were a group?
Which one of you didn’t know you were a group? :pac:
No, I explained to you why I didn’t comment on the incident you mentioned. You’re explaining to me why you think I didn’t comment, even though I went so far as to say if I had to comment, I still wouldn’t be sure I was making the right call because maybe they’re not a pack of dryballs after all. They sound like a pack of dryballs, but y’know, that’s just my take on it. Like I said - I don’t know the people involved well enough and I don’t know the circumstances or context. Based upon my experiences of what you’re describing though, I’m gonna go with they all sound like a pack of dryballs.
You see this is the part that’s simply not true! People do plenty for each other every single day, whether it’s men, women or children, husbands, wives (ex-husbands and ex-wives even), boyfriends, girlfriends, brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, friends, relatives, neighbours and relations, they all help each other out, we all do. Everyone does it already. The cynic is the person who needs these ‘days’ the most, to have someone recognise their contributions to society, which is generally fcukall, because they are of the belief in your whole no such thing as a truly altruistic act bollocks and people don’t do anything without getting something in return. Most people do not think like you do.
You’ve appointed yourself the arbiter again of ’the right thing’ and doubled down on it by implying it’s lots of educated people will do the right thing, as though people who aren’t doing the right thing are ill-educated, not their fault, it falls to you and people like you to educate people and get the information out there! Come down El_D out of there, you’re so far up your own rear end I can see the soles of your boots! :pac:
(That’s a joke btw, a classic case of how people chat, share information and learn from each other)
I didn't know I was in a group. I didn't know I was part of a 'we' but you claim to know all the people involved.
LOL. You claim most people do lots of things but then claim to know that most people who support IMD do nothing to help all year round. You claim to know a lot about a lot of people but couldn't possibly comment on the scenario except to call us dryballs. Dryballs for chatting about things we care about like the suicide rate of young men - what a bunch of losers we are.
But I don't mind if you think I'm a dryballs. I think the suicide rate among young men is a serious topic even if you don't. And I think people should be encouraged to chat and share Info which can help, even if you don't. And I'll support anyone using IMD to do some good, even if people who oppose chatting about these things want to stand in opposition or ridicule them calling them dryballs for caring or whatever way they want to contribute to the problem.0 -
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El_Duderino 09 wrote: »I didn't know I was in a group. I didn't know I was part of a 'we' but you claim to know all the people involved.
By your own bloody admission you’re in a group! I didn’t claim I know all the people involved, I’m just well aware of the type of person who promotes ideas like IMD in the name of social progress. I don’t have to know you as an individual personally to know what you’re like if I’m expected to take you at your word given what you’ve contributed to this discussion, same as you don’t have to know me personally to have formed the opinion that I’m part of the problem when it comes to you thinking you know me better and you know what’s better for me than I know myself.El_Duderino 09 wrote: »LOL. You claim most people do lots of things but then claim to know that most people who support IMD do nothing to help all year round. You claim to know a lot about a lot of people but couldn't possibly comment on the scenario except to call us dryballs. Dryballs for chatting about things we care about like the suicide rate of young men - what a bunch of losers we are.
They’re different groups! I didn’t call anyone a loser btw, I wasn’t even aware you were part of the group you were talking about, but frankly it doesn’t surprise me one bit. At least you have each other, even if you claim you’re not with them :pac:El_Duderino 09 wrote: »But I don't mind if you think I'm a dryballs. I think the suicide rate among young men is a serious topic even if you don't. And I think people should be encouraged to chat and share Info which can help, even if you don't. And I'll support anyone using IMD to do some good, even if people who oppose chatting about these things want to stand in opposition or ridicule them calling them dryballs for caring or whatever way they want to contribute to the problem.
There’s a very simple reason why people generally have no interest in talking about topics which make them miserable - because talking about that kind of stuff makes them miserable, and means people prefer to avoid them like the plague. Of course you’re going to support people who already agree with you, it’s much harder to support anyone who doesn’t, and that’s where the real challenge is in trying to help other people - instead of you ‘educating’ other people, you could try and learn from other people instead. You’ve been LOL’ing and condescending your way throughout this conversation, but as soon as you get the impression someone thinks you’re a dryballs (I didn’t, because I didn’t know you were in the group you were talking about), you get all indignant and pissy.
Classic case of respectability politics - people have to behave the way you want them to behave in order to be deemed worthy of your support, and if they don’t fall in line behind you - well then they’re part of the problem. I lied earlier when I said I could see the soles of your boots. I can’t.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »By your own bloody admission you’re in a group! I didn’t claim I know all the people involved, I’m just well aware of the type of person who promotes ideas like IMD in the name of social progress. I don’t have to know you as an individual personally to know what you’re like if I’m expected to take you at your word given what you’ve contributed to this discussion, same as you don’t have to know me personally to have formed the opinion that I’m part of the problem when it comes to you thinking you know me better and you know what’s better for me than I know myself.
They’re different groups! I didn’t call anyone a loser btw, I wasn’t even aware you were part of the group you were talking about, but frankly it doesn’t surprise me one bit. At least you have each other, even if you claim you’re not with them :pac:
There’s a very simple reason why people generally have no interest in talking about topics which make them miserable - because talking about that kind of stuff makes them miserable, and means people prefer to avoid them like the plague. Of course you’re going to support people who already agree with you, it’s much harder to support anyone who doesn’t, and that’s where the real challenge is in trying to help other people - instead of you ‘educating’ other people, you could try and learn from other people instead. You’ve been LOL’ing and condescending your way throughout this conversation, but as soon as you get the impression someone thinks you’re a dryballs (I didn’t, because I didn’t know you were in the group you were talking about), you get all indignant and pissy.
Classic case of respectability politics - people have to behave the way you want them to behave in order to be deemed worthy of your support, and if they don’t fall in line behind you - well then they’re part of the problem. I lied earlier when I said I could see the soles of your boots. I can’t.
Chatting and sharing information on things is one of the main ways progress happens. Information shapes and changes attitudes and opinions. That's how the world works. That's why information is so important and one of the reasons IMD is such a great opportunity to spread info.
You're so fixated on the people giving the info that you don't even seem to acknowledge the utility of the info. Just look at the scenario I mentioned and you're responses. You seem to have thought I was asking about the character of the people involved (hence your answer focusing exclusively on us being dryballs). But the obvious point of the thing was the fact that my mate now has a positive attitude towards the issue of men's suicide. That hasn't even featured into your answer as instead you focused on insulting me for being involved in such a thing. Why the people involved in chatting about these things is more important to you than the people it stands to help is unclear to me.
Do you genuinely not see the point of spreading info on important topics like the rate of suicide amongst young men? Assuming you see it as important and not just something dryballs know about
This site is usually pretty quick to point to men's suicide rate as an area in need of major investment. Now is an opportunity to raise awareness and actually do
something that will result in media attention for the issue.
You also claim you're doing great work all year round by treating people well. Assuming that's true, great. But I wonder if you realise that change happens at lots of levels including being nice to each other. It also needs change at the political level through voter attitudes and political lobbying. IMD is a great place to make a big step forward because the media will cover the stories and carry the Info to hundreds of thousands of people throughout the country in a single day.
So if you stand in opposition to doing that good work, then it's pretty obvious what you're doing. It would be as obvious if you saw someone in opposition to the Irish heart foundation doing public awareness on Heart Health Day in September. They would be in opposition to other people do good work and they would be making themselves a part of the problem. Luckily the Irish heart health lobby is strong and hopefully important men's groups like suicide prevention will become strong too.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »So if you stand in opposition to doing that good work, then it's pretty obvious what you're doing.
Well of course it’s obvious what I’m doing, because I don’t agree with you that it’s good work. You think that makes anyone who disagrees with you “part of the problem”, so what it comes down to essentially is that you think you know what’s better for men in this case than men know themselves.
You’re so focused on getting the information that’s important to you out there for increased funding for your cause, that you’re ignoring the people who you claim to be advocating for, y’know, the people who make up that statistic you’re so keen for people to know about, the people who disagree with you whom you claim are “part of the problem”.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Well of course it’s obvious what I’m doing, because I don’t agree with you that it’s good work. You think that makes anyone who disagrees with you “part of the problem”, so what it comes down to essentially is that you think you know what’s better for men in this case than men know themselves.
You’re so focused on getting the information that’s important to you out there for increased funding for your cause, that you’re ignoring the people who you claim to be advocating for, y’know, the people who make up that statistic you’re so keen for people to know about, the people who disagree with you whom you claim are “part of the problem”.
So from the post you quoted "Do you genuinely not see the point of spreading info on important topics like the rate of suicide amongst young men?"
An more broadly, do you see the phenomenon of suicide rates amongst young men as a problem in the first place?0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »So from the post you quoted "Do you genuinely not see the point of spreading info on important topics like the rate of suicide amongst young men?"
Of course I see the point of your attempting to spread your perspective on anything, among as wide an audience as possible. Using the suicide rates among males to spread your ideas - that’s what I find objectionable.El_Duderino 09 wrote: »An more broadly, do you see the phenomenon of suicide rates amongst young men as a problem in the first place?
More broadly again, I’m more concerned with suicide prevention regardless of gender, than using statistics to generate funding to spread your ideas in which you use things like suicide rates in men as a means to an end. You’re not any different to the already existing number of organisations and individuals who are using social issues to promote themselves and their beliefs as a solution to social issues that people are acutely aware of already. Of course it stands to reason in your mind in that scenario that anyone who doesn’t support your ideas for a solution, is part of the problem - same as many other organisations and individuals who see anyone who gets in the way of them generating funding to spread their ideas as “part of the problem”.
That’s not true though, and attempting to guilt trip people who don’t agree with your ideas as though they are responsible for perpetuating the social ills because they’re opposed to your ideas, is insidious behaviour, frankly, and demonstrates that you care less about people and the issues you claim to want to address, and more about generating funding to spread your ideas.
IMD is no different than any other movement in that regard, but as long as you want to pretend that it is, I’m going to point out that what you’re attempting to do is guilt trip people into supporting your ideas or according to you they should be ashamed of themselves for not wanting to prevent suicide. Being against the idea of IMD is not the same thing as not wanting to prevent suicide or any other social issues you claim IMD addresses.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Of course I see the point of your attempting to spread your perspective on anything, among as wide an audience as possible. Using the suicide rates among males to spread your ideas - that’s what I find objectionable.
You don't seem to have understood the question. I wasn't asking you anything about me.
So to clarify the question, do you see the Importance of spreading information on social issues like suicide (forget the specific rate amongst young men for a moment).
So the question is about the Importance of information sharing in shaping attitudes, opinions and getting funding to find and implement solutions.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »You don't seem to have understood the question.
...
So the question is about the Importance of information sharing in shaping attitudes, opinions and getting funding to find and implement solutions.
I understood the question and it’s context perfectly well.
What part of my answer are you having difficulty with understanding?0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »I understood the question and it’s context perfectly well.
What part of my answer are you having difficulty with understanding?
You didn't say whether you see the importance of information sharing in dealing with issues like suicide prevention.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »I understood the question and it’s context perfectly well.
What part of my answer are you having difficulty with understanding?
I'd leave it chief. You have explained your reasoning umpteen times at this stage.0 -
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El_Duderino 09 wrote: »You didn't say whether you see the importance of information sharing in dealing with issues like suicide prevention.
I did.
I see from your perspective why you think it’s important for you to spread information you have while putting your own spin on it - it’s important for you to promote yourself and your ideas in order to gain support and funding for your ideas which you claim will address the issues which everyone in society is aware of already.
Using statistics such as the suicide rate among males as a means to divide people between those people who support your ideas, as though only they care about people who are at risk of taking their own lives, and those who are opposed to your ideas, as though they don’t care about the people in their lives who are at risk of taking their own lives, is insidious.
It’s a common tactic among social justice advocacy groups (I wasn’t just making anything about you, I was speaking generally of the concept of IMD and the people who promote ideas like IMD, IWD, etc, they used to be called flag days or fundraising events) - present themselves as the people who care, and anyone who disagrees with them, doesn’t care about people who they’re trying to support.
That’s why I said I disagree with that methodology - it’s not just a benign attempt to get information out there, it’s an insidious attempt to latch on to a social ill which everyone is already aware of, in order to promote themselves as caring, and paint people opposed to their ideas as mean-spirited, uncaring, selfish, should be ashamed of themselves, etc.
It’s a divisive idea which as I said has it’s roots in identity politics.0
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