International Men's Day 19th November

One eyed Jack

HorrorScope wrote: »

Yeah go **** yourself you inconsiderate prick (and no I don’t care if I get banned for this). Women’s day might be a joyful celebration of females and their achievements, meanwhile men’s day is ridiculed and laughed at like in this thread. I’ve lost my 3 of my friends to suicide and yet people like you treat it as a ****ing joke? Sickening.

Yeah, the poster you quoted was ridiculing IMD, not suicide.

HorrorScope

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yeah, the poster you quoted was ridiculing IMD, not suicide.

Same thing in my eyes, brush aside IMD without realising what it’s trying to highlight.

HorrorScope

Joey Adams wrote: »

I'm sorry your friends committed suicide but raging at me won't bring them back. I'm all for talking about suicide and mental health but it seems weird to me that Women's day is all about strength and positivity, and Men's day is all about weakness and negativity.

Men aren’t allowed to be strong and positive anymore, that’s “toxic masulcinity” now apparently. I’m sorry for having a go at you man but that juxtapose **** pisses me off like nothing else. We can all celebrate women’s day and the positive female role models in our lives but men’s day which takes a more spotlight approach to serious issues is ****ing laughed at and ridiculed??? Some of the posters here should be ****ing ashamed of themselves.

HorrorScope

Joey Adams wrote: »

Yeah I get you. Suicide is a scourge. I wonder how many men do it because they lost everything during the divorce?

It’s not even divorces man. Friend 1 killed himself because of some female in a nightclub calling him pizza face (he struggled with acne his whole life and killed himself same night after a feed of drink). Friend 2 lost his 2 kids in a divorce because the mother made accusations that he was a pedo, hung himself the day after custody hearing. And friend 3 was simply a gentle soul who got overwhelmed by workload, i met him for pints a few times in the past few months. Always upbeat, and always wearing a mask which made it hard to tell if he was ok or sad. We got word on a Monday morning in the office that he had taken an overdose the night before (needless to say that was the end of the work day then and there).

IMD is trying to shine a spotlight on this bull**** and it gets laughed at? We’ve lost too many friends along the way to make this a laughing matter - this is not a celebration of the patriarchy or white privilege or any other bull**** label used to shut down the opinions of men. This is calling out the fact that we as men, have an issue talking about this stuff - talking about the black dog or the boogeyman who follows us around day to day.

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Or she was shocked somebody stood up to her and got freaked out :P

Yeah, she's a mate hence why were out for pints together. She genuinely took back her little joke about every day being men's day. She cares about mental health, suicide and education so all she needed was the information. Simple as that in her case.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah, she's a mate hence why were out for pints together. She genuinely took back her little joke about every day being men's day. She cares about mental health, suicide and education so all she needed was the information. Simple as that in her case.

I think most people are reasoned enough to appreciate the issues men face when presented with facts...the problem arises when they have abandoned reason, those who have abandoned reason make an awful lot of noise tho!

One eyed Jack

HorrorScope wrote: »

Same thing in my eyes, brush aside IMD without realising what it’s trying to highlight.

They’re not the same thing though, and IMD IMO doesn’t do anything to highlight anything only a couple of high horsey types who imagine that people aren’t aware of suicide (to take suicide as one example). A good example of a high horsey type is Blindboy who suggests that young men need to adopt feminism.

That’s entirely about promoting feminism, it does nothing to address the issues he uses to promote feminism. The poster makes a good point about the motivation behind these movements promoting women’s days and men’s days. People talk about these issues all year round, they’re aware of them and they’re aware that the information is out there and the services available to them in their communities.

Even earlier in the thread El_D related an anecdote from their own lives where men corrected a woman on her assumptions over a few drinks. They didn’t have to wait until IMD to make her aware of the issues from their perspective. IMD is all about promoting a particular point of view and as El_D suggests - if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. It has nothing to do with men’s welfare because they have no interest in hearing from men who don’t share their ideological beliefs, they only want to hear from people who are willing to validate their ideological beliefs which are rooted in identity politics, which is where the ideas of women’s day came from and later the token men’s day as more of an afterthought when they realised the ineffectiveness of women’s day on it’s own :rolleyes:

suicide_circus

Joey Adams wrote: »

So you agree without men you couldn't live your soft comfortable western lifestyle but you don't want to celebrate men in case women feel left out?

what? my comfortable western lifestyle was achieved through the blood sweat and tears of generations of men and women that went before me. I celebrate achievements based on their merit, not the gender of those who achieved them.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

I think most people are reasoned enough to appreciate the issues men face when presented with facts...the problem arises when they have abandoned reason, those who have abandoned reason make an awful lot of noise tho!

I'd agree most people react to facts when given the info. That's why I see it as so important to take full advantage of IMD, get as much good info out there and gain allies in addressing men's issues.

suicide_circus

Joey Adams wrote: »

Men did heavy lifting though (literally and figuratively) so why can't you honour the men who gave you what you have?

i honour them by not being so petty and needy as to need a special day. man up and get back to work.

suicide_circus

Joey Adams wrote: »

How many women die on construction sites, oil rigs, coal mines each year?

how many men died in labour birthing our forefathers? this gender crap is boring.

international mens day and womens day are an embarrassment.

TheValeyard

I want to know where do I queue for my free drink?
I take it all those places like 'Nolita' which gave free drinks away for Womens day are doing the same right? Equality and that Jamaican rum flavoured cocktails.

suicide_circus

Joey Adams wrote: »

We can honour both men and women. Are you a woman? Does it make you insecure that men built civilisation?

i'm all man, baby

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Even earlier in the thread El_D related an anecdote from their own lives where men corrected a woman on her assumptions over a few drinks. They didn’t have to wait until IMD to make her aware of the issues from their perspective. IMD is all about promoting a particular point of view and as El_D suggests - if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.

I already said it didn't have to happen on IMD, but it did happen on IMD. The chat was prompted because it was IMD. Maybe you go around all year round talking about suicide stats, but I find it doesn't come up very often in normal conversation. IMD is a great opportunity to naturally talk about these things as they'll be in the media anyway, wouldn't you agree?

Secondly, and I've clarified this a few times too, if you oppose the solution, you're part of the problem. Doing nothing would be neutral.

Seamai

TheValeyard wrote: »

I want to know where do I queue for my free drink?
I take it all those places like 'Nolita' which gave free drinks away for Womens day are doing the same right? Equality and that Jamaican rum flavoured cocktails.

Good luck with that one but on the plus side you'll be able to sit with your legs as far apart as you want on the day and you won't have to take crap from anyone.

Reviews and Books Galore

suicide_circus wrote: »

i'm all man, baby

Well, you are a man baby

suicide_circus

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Well, you are a man baby

ZING!!

TheValeyard

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Well, you are a man baby

suicide_circus wrote: »

ZING!!

Ye flirting?

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I already said it didn't have to happen on IMD, but it did happen on IMD. The chat was prompted because it was IMD. Maybe you go around all year round talking about suicide stats, but I find it doesn't come up very often in normal conversation. IMD is a great opportunity to naturally talk about these things as they'll be in the media anyway, wouldn't you agree?

No I wouldn’t agree, obviously. I don’t go around all year talking about the suicide stats but I deal with suicide regularly, and whether it’s a man or a woman the point for me has never been that they’re suicidal, but what’s actually causing a person to feel suicidal. Talking about the stats does nothing to address the underlying causes, and I could cite you the stats all day off the top of my head, and it still wouldn’t make one iota of a difference in preventing people who choose to take their own lives from doing so, because their reasons for doing so are as individual as they are.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Secondly, and I've clarified this a few times too, if you oppose the solution, you're part of the problem. Doing nothing would be neutral.

I know you’ve clarified it a few times, and I’m still opposed to what you’re putting forward as a solution. That doesn’t make me part of the problem in addressing the issue of suicide or any number of other social issues as they relate either to men or to women. Effectively all you’re doing is advocating for your particular ideology, as opposed to being interested in either men’s or women’s welfare. If the problem you’re referring to is that I am opposed to your promotion of your own ideology, then you’re correct on that much at least. If the problem you’re referring to is suicide prevention, then you’re talking nonsense, because neither I nor anyone else in society, regardless of their gender, is responsible for someone else who chooses to take their own life.

It’s that statement which you weren’t very clear on - what the problem is you’re talking about, that you’re accusing me of being a part of? How accusing me of perpetuating suicide is of any benefit to me, is the bit I’d like you to clarify. Because to me it sounds like you’re not the least bit interested in suicide prevention, and more interested in promoting yourself as a morally superior individual to everyone else, and anyone who isn’t with you is agin’ you.

Reviews and Books Galore

suicide_circus wrote: »

ZING!!

I was a little bit proud

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No I wouldn’t agree, obviously. I don’t go around all year talking about the suicide stats but I deal with suicide regularly, and whether it’s a man or a woman the point for me has never been that they’re suicidal, but what’s actually causing a person to feel suicidal. Talking about the stats does nothing to address the underlying causes, and I could cite you the stats all day off the top of my head, and it still wouldn’t make one iota of a difference in preventing people who choose to take their own lives from doing so, because their reasons for doing so are as individual as they are.

You don't agree that IMD is a great opportunity to naturally talk about these things as they'll be in the media anyway? That's an odd thing to think because it's demonstrably wrong.

The whole point of spreading info like stats is to shape attitudes and get more people onside with regards to funding solutions and providing services to help deal with the problems. Both of those things cost money so they need support from the general public to give cover to politicians to spend public money on those things. Likewise they need support from the public to set up private charities to help deal with the problems.

Why you'd stand in opposition to those things is something I don't understand. And it absolutely makes you a part of the problem whether you like to think of yourself as a part of the problem or not. It might be easy to think of other groups like the dreaded feminists as the problem, but anyone who opposes progress is a part of the problem. It's pretty obvious really.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You don't agree that these topics are in the media on IMD? That's an odd thing to think because it's demonstrably wrong.

Go back and read your own post as to what I disagreed with, instead of being so purposely obtuse -

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

IMD is a great opportunity to naturally talk about these things as they'll be in the media anyway, wouldn't you agree?

I don’t agree that IMD is a great opportunity to natural talk about these things.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The whole point if spreading info like stats is to get more people onside with regards to funding solutions and providing services to help deal with the problems. Both of those things cost money so they need support from the general public to give cover to politicians to spend public money on those things. Likewise they need support from the public to set up private charities to help deal with the problems.

Why you'd stand in opposition to those things is something I don't understand. And it absolutely makes you a part of the problem whether you like to think of yourself as a part of the problem or not. It might be easy to think of other groups like the dreaded feminists as the problem, but anyone who opposes progress is a part of the problem. It's pretty obvious really.

You don’t understand why I’d be opposed to people using social issues as a means to promote their own ideology and get funding and lobbying from the general public to promote their ideology?

Perhaps that’s the underlying cause of our differences of opinion - I don’t agree with the idea of exploiting people to promote an ideology, you appear to be arguing that the end justifies the means. I don’t think it does, as that to me is not progress, it’s simply exploitation and taking advantage of people’s desperation.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Go back and read your own post as to what I disagreed with, instead of being so purposely obtuse -





I don’t agree that IMD is a great opportunity to natural talk about these things.





You don’t understand why I’d be opposed to people using social issues as a means to promote their own ideology and get funding and lobbying from the general public to promote their ideology?

Perhaps that’s the underlying cause of our differences of opinion - I don’t agree with the idea of exploiting people to promote an ideology, you appear to be arguing that the end justifies the means. I don’t think it does, as that to me is not progress, it’s simply exploitation and taking advantage of people’s desperation.

That wS the question I asked and you said you obviously didn't agree. I can only take you at your word. What ideology are we talking about? The ideology of identifying issues that affect men and finding solutions to those issues? (I wouldn't have thought of calling it an ideology but it's the term you seem to prefer). That's a grand 'ideology' as far as I'm concerned. If someone does good work towards that objective, then good on them. And shame on those who stand in opposition to the objective (ideology, in your terms).

Ironicname

HorrorScope wrote:

Yeah go **** yourself you inconsiderate prick (and no I don’t care if I get banned for this). Women’s day might be a joyful celebration of females and their achievements, meanwhile men’s day is ridiculed and laughed at like in this thread. I’ve lost my 3 of my friends to suicide and yet people like you treat it as a ****ing joke? A day that highlights the issue men face is some topic for comedy?? Sickening.

Actually, you proved the posters point there.

He was pointing out that IMD was all about suicide and depression whereas IWD was about celebrating achievement and empowerment.

He wasn't joking about it.

HorrorScope wrote:

Same thing in my eyes, brush aside IMD without realising what it’s trying to highlight.

Excuse me? Brushing aside IMD is not making light of suicide.

Muir

https://internationalmensday.com/

"On November 19 International Men’s Day celebrates worldwide the positive value men bring to the world, their families and communities. We highlight positive role models and raise awareness of men’s well-being."

I don't know why people think it's only about mental health. There have been suggestions in this thread that it's about negativity and weakness. The fact that people are still implying that mental illness is a weakness just shows that it still needs to be spoken about. You could have a colleague, a friend, a family member - someone who wants to open up about how they're feeling - imagine that being the attitude they're met with.

There's nothing to stop anyone here promoting whatever issues, or positive role models or whatever they want on IMD or indeed any other day of the year. And if you don't agree with the day, for whatever reason, you can ignore it. But there's no need to complain whenever someone brings it up. There are still massive problems with men worrying how they'll be seen by other men - there is no need to compound that problem.

I'm not in any way trying to suggest that there aren't valid points raised in the thread, and valid reasons to disagree with IMD, or things that could be changed or done better. But that doesn't happen by magic - if you don't like something then you either need to work to change it or deal with it.

I will also add that statistics are important. No, they don't address the issues of the individual - but they do go a long way in determining funding. They can also identify things like professions with higher rates of suicide for example, so the underlying reasons for that can be identified. There are a lot more employers in areas like construction, where there are high rates of suicide among men, starting to educate themselves and become more proactive. Not nearly enough is being done, but knowing where the problems are can go some way towards addressing them.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That wS the question I asked and you said you obviously didn't agree. I can only take you at your word.

You didn’t take me at my word though. You tried to misrepresent what I was said as though I was saying the media coverage was a bad idea when your question was concerned with using IMD as an opportunity to talk about men’s issues.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What ideology are we talking about? The ideology of identifying issues that affect men and finding solutions to those issues? (I wouldn't have thought of calling it an ideology but it's the term you seem to prefer). That's a grand 'ideology' as far as I'm concerned. If someone does good work towards that objective, then good on them. And shame on those who stand in opposition to the objective (ideology, in your terms).

We’re talking about the ideology of self-promotion in which people attach themselves to social issues and want to promote what they see as the solutions to those issues - they require funding from the general public in order to address those issues though. So the objective is more about promoting an ideology and gaining funding to promote that ideology. It’s simply self-serving and using social issues to promote themselves and gain support for their cause. Of course you’re going to attempt to call people shameful when your true motivations are pointed out, and it might actually work if I thought I had done anything to be ashamed of.

Ideologues who claim to support men and promote men’s issues while looking for public funding and support for their ideas, and all the while attempting to shame anyone who disagrees with them into submission? That doesn’t sound familiar at all at all :rolleyes:

Put it this way - if people thought your ideas were any good in the first place, you wouldn’t feel a need to try and shame anyone who disagrees with your ideas into submission.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You didn’t take me at my word though. You tried to misrepresent what I was said as though I was saying the media coverage was a bad idea when your question was concerned with using IMD as an opportunity to talk about men’s issues.





We’re talking about the ideology of self-promotion in which people attach themselves to social issues and want to promote what they see as the solutions to those issues - they require funding from the general public in order to address those issues though. So the objective is more about promoting an ideology and gaining funding to promote that ideology. It’s simply self-serving and using social issues to promote themselves and gain support for their cause. Of course you’re going to attempt to call people shameful when your true motivations are pointed out, and it might actually work if I thought I had done anything to be ashamed of.

Ideologues who claim to support men and promote men’s issues while looking for public funding and support for their ideas, and all the while attempting to shame anyone who disagrees with them into submission? That doesn’t sound familiar at all at all :rolleyes:

Put it this way - if people thought your ideas were any good in the first place, you wouldn’t feel a need to try and shame anyone who disagrees with your ideas into submission.

Lol. So if you don't think media attention for men's issues is a good idea, how do yo think they should be addressed and solved?

I really don't get your objection to using the media to promote men's issuers. Who's the victim, the media? Or the charities and organisations who exist to help men? Or the men who are benefitted by the organisations and information? You're applying some kind of purity test to people who want to help where if they get any benefit from it, then you dismiss them and all the work they want to do.

There's a funny line in Peep Show which you reminded me of. The lads are talking to a music manager about signing them Super Hans says "A lot of these b**tards just want to give you an advance, promote your stuff, then make a profit for them and you".

Assuming that the people involved in promoting men's issues are a normal spread of people so some will be deeply decent and some will be deeply unpleasant people, so what? Does them being unpleasant invalidate the good work they of everyone? Do you apply this standard to every organisation and charity who tries to help with an issue or do you just apply the standard to men's issues?

It seems to me that you will say you support addressing men's issues in principle, but couldn't support any effort that uses publicity or has anyone who gets anything from it like profit, or a sense of satisfaction from doing something they believe to be a benefit to others or benefiting from something completely free to the organisation like enhancing their public profile.

Almost every bit of work in the world is a mutually beneficial arrangement. Why should men's issues be any different? How do you expect much work to be done if there is absolutely no pay off for the people doing it? If someone does good work and it raises their profile so they can do other things, so what? It makes it a mutually beneficial arrangement. Why this purity test for men's issues?

Ironicname

It's remarkable how you continually and willfully misrepresent and misunderstand people who do not like or don't agree with international men's day.

It is very possible to dislike a day of people using men's problems that they usually don't give two ****s about in order to garner popularity for one day, but still support (and possibly being one of) those who do the hard work throughout the year.

We are "part of the problem" according to you.

Amazing.

El_Duderino 09

Ironicname wrote: »

It's remarkable how you continually and willfully misrepresent and misunderstand people who do not like or don't agree with international men's day.

It is very possible to dislike a day of people using men's problems that they usually don't give two ****s about in order to garner popularity for one day, but still support (and possibly being one of) those who do the hard work throughout the year.

We are "part of the problem" according to you.

Amazing.

How could you possibly know the bit in bold?

Ironicname

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

How could you possibly know the bit in bold?

Because I know a lot of people who do this