International Men's Day 19th November

kowloon

Suicide, yet another thing we're just better at.

El_Duderino 09

All through the the year there are men who post on boards about how men's issues aren't taken as seriously as women's issues. The fact is that women's groups have been active for years or decades to have their concerns heard.

They have been active and created opportunity and made use of opportunities to have their concerns heard. IMD is one of those opportunities to give voice to the issues that concern you. Use it how you want to. Use its to chat to people about the things that concern you, or get media attention for those issues, or just give support to people who want to prompt men's issues.

It's easy to do small things that help. It takes effort to stand in the way of those who want to do something to help. So probably don't be a part of the problem.

Whatever you do, don't be one of those people who complain that men's issue aren't taken seriously and also talk down people who actually want to promote men's issues. If you do so, then you're part of the problem whether you admit it or not.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK that's fine. Put aside all the stuff about the "people who pretend to care about other people to promote themselves" and promote the things you want to promote because obviously you "don’t want to see bad in anyone" as you said to me earlier.

So use the day to promote the things you want to promote. Or if you don't care to promote anything, support those who want to promote things.

You’re still missing the point El_D. I don’t need to have a special day to do that. Nobody does. People do it anyway, every, single, day. Because most people are decent human beings who care for each other’s welfare and they don’t need to be treated as though “Ok, it’s your special day today, tomorrow it’s the women’s turn to have their special day”. It’s a ridiculous concept that’s based upon the idea of token acknowledgement of social justice issues. It doesn’t actually do anything only make the people who promote it feel better about themselves. I don’t buy into it, and I don’t see it as in any way necessary, I see these days as simply adding fuel to the gender wars nonsense.

You want to do something for someone, find out what they actually need help with as opposed to offering them what you think they need. I don’t support those who just want to promote “things” because I’m not into agenda driven nonsense that bears all the hallmarks of a political campaign. I’m just not that single-minded, and when you actually listen to people, you’ll generally find they’re not that single-minded either that they care one way or the other about one day in the year which means something to you, but it doesn’t mean a whole lot to most people who have greater concerns in their lives and simply don’t have any time for men’s day or women’s day or any of the rest of it.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’re still missing the point El_D.

OK. And we agreed to move on. So let's move on.

Silentcorner

spurious wrote: »

So what's stopping you starting a campaign for it?
Do you think the women involved in what is referred to as the women's movement sat around waiting for things to happen?
They got out there, they campaigned, they got laughed at, some of them got attacked. These things did not happen over night.

Unless of course you were just having a dig.

I don't understand your tone?

In my first post in this thread about international men's day, I suggested that men educate themselves, because that is where it starts...I suggested two areas where men can focus, domestic violence and suicide awareness.

I have pointed out that in the case of domestic violence, policy and funding has been hijacked by people who subscribe to the fantasy of the "patriarchial oppression theory" which means only women can be victims, which is a complete lie, I say lie because the Duluth Model which I provided a link for, is complete fantasy...it seems, from funding and publicity, the Duluth model is what our government has been hoodwinked by?

In boards, in future, if we express an opinion do we then have to provide proof that we are willing to fundraise or lobby government ministers to back that opinion up?

Ironicname

Silentcorner wrote:

In boards, in future, if we express an opinion do we then have to provide proof that we are willing to fundraise or lobby government ministers to back that opinion up?

It seems so. Not being a fan of imd apparently means that you are pro suicide and against men's mental health.

I'm "part of the problem" seemingly.

El_Duderino 09

Ironicname wrote: »

It seems so. Not being a fan of imd apparently means that you are pro suicide and against men's mental health.

I'm "part of the problem" seemingly.

Not being a fan is grand, neutral. Talking down initiatives aimed at helping raise awareness of men's issues makes that person a part of the problem. Seems pretty obvious to me.

ampleforth

Robert_Beach wrote: »

I don't think any International Mens Day stuff would fly.

Not in this climate...for sure.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Not being a fan is grand, neutral. Talking down initiatives aimed at helping raise awareness of men's issues makes that person a part of the problem. Seems pretty obvious to me.

I know we agreed to move on and all, but I have to ask - makes that person a part of what problem, specifically?

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I know we agreed to move on and all, but I have to ask - makes that person a part of what problem, specifically?

We could go around the houses for a few hours and eventually we’ll discover that you disagree that either the problems and solutions as I see them, are problems or solutions.

So maybe let’s save ourselves the hassle and actually move on?

Reviews and Books Galore

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You’re still missing the point El_D. I don’t need to have a special day to do that. Nobody does. People do it anyway, every, single, day. Because most people are decent human beings who care for each other’s welfare and they don’t need to be treated as though “Ok, it’s your special day today, tomorrow it’s the women’s turn to have their special day”. It’s a ridiculous concept that’s based upon the idea of token acknowledgement of social justice issues. It doesn’t actually do anything only make the people who promote it feel better about themselves. I don’t buy into it, and I don’t see it as in any way necessary, I see these days as simply adding fuel to the gender wars nonsense.

You want to do something for someone, find out what they actually need help with as opposed to offering them what you think they need. I don’t support those who just want to promote “things” because I’m not into agenda driven nonsense that bears all the hallmarks of a political campaign. I’m just not that single-minded, and when you actually listen to people, you’ll generally find they’re not that single-minded either that they care one way or the other about one day in the year which means something to you, but it doesn’t mean a whole lot to most people who have greater concerns in their lives and simply don’t have any time for men’s day or women’s day or any of the rest of it.

I agree in regards to the bold.

Reviews and Books Galore

kowloon wrote: »

Suicide, yet another thing we're just better at.

You should look at the suicide ratio of men vs women in regards to countries. It's quite interesting how the slavic countries are truly horrific in regards to the suicide of men and, strangely, it is a female majority in those countries.



I kind of wonder if a man's testosterone lowers if he's around women all day* and this could effect deppresion?


*I imagine a woman's testosterone would raise if she's around men all day due to different forms of communication.

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

I agree in regards to the bold.

You don't need a special day. But the significance of the day is that the media is ready and waiting to spread the information.

You can say what you like any day of the year without any reasonable expectation that the media will cover it. If you set something up to raise awareness the issue you see as important, you can get free national coverage of it on IMD.

Everyone knows you can do whatever you want every day of the year. If someone said otherwise, they would be wrong. But nobody has suggested you can't do what you want on other days, so it's moot.

Ironicname

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

Not being a fan is grand, neutral. Talking down initiatives aimed at helping raise awareness of men's issues makes that person a part of the problem. Seems pretty obvious to me.

What problem exactly? There has been plenty of posters who have cited examples of IMD having a negative impact on people suffering.

So how is me or anyone else saying on a discussion forum, that IMD is not for them.

I'm not neutral on IMD. I don't like it. Other people do so that's fine by me. You have some cheek implying that I am part of any "problem" just because I don't like men's issues being seen as special event for people.

How sanctimonious are you to think that your way of addressing men's issues is the right way? Each person is different.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

We could go around the houses for a few hours and eventually we’ll discover that you disagree that either the problems and solutions as I see them, are problems or solutions.

So maybe let’s save ourselves the hassle and actually move on?

No, I’m not just going to move on when you’re accusing me of being part of some problem and I don’t understand what I’m being accused of. I’d like to know exactly what I’m being accused of.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, I’m not just going to move on when you’re accusing me of being part of some problem and I don’t understand what I’m being accused of. I’d like to know exactly what I’m being accused of.

OK. So you don't agree and we're moving on. Well, I'm moving on anyway.

El_Duderino 09

Ironicname wrote: »

What problem exactly?

Problems like the need for information. And standing in opposition to the sharing of information.

There are men's issues which need to be addressed. Information shapes attitudes and opinions. If people have the relevant information they would be more likely to support men's issues. IMD is an opportunity to spread information about men's issues and get people onside to support finding and funding solutions. Standing in the way of that information sharing, talking down IMD and opposing IMD are examples of standing in the way of progress. Thus making the person a part of the problem which also needs to be overcome to find a solution.

For example, last IMD I was in the pub for after work pints. Someone mentioned IMD and one of the women said "shur, every day is men's day". I remember thinking she was someone who I would have expected better from. There were 2 other lads at the table who were able to say that boys are falling behind girls in education, male suicide rates and father's struggling to get access to their children after marriage break up.

She was genuinely surprised as they were issues she had never thought much about before (she didn't know about the suicide or education stats). She was genuinely interested and saw the merit in IMD straight away. That's it. She now has the information she needed to support men's mental health and education. It didn't have to happen on IMD, but it did.

Standing I the way of that kind of discussion is being part of the problem even if they don't like thinking of themselves as a part of the problem.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. So you don't agree and we're moving on. Well, I'm moving on anyway.

So let’s just see what happened there:

- You’re advocating that it’s in men’s interests to get involved in international men’s day in order to inform people about issues which affect them

- Men in this thread have pointed out the numerous problems they have identified with your ideas for other men

- You accuse those same men of being part of the problem (Ironicname was kind enough to explain what you may have meant - anyone who disagree with you are a problem, for you).

- You handwave away any men who disagree with your ideas for them, accusing them of being part of a problem that your ideas are attempting to address, tell them they can use the day you’re promoting to air their grievances, and when they air their grievances now, you’re moving on.

“Capitalising on the day throughout the year” me hole, you just want a day that recognises you for your tireless dedication to winding people up and inventing issues with which you can perpetuate the gender wars and perpetuate your own brand of complete fcukwittery while never actually having to do anything to address the issues you claim to be “raising awareness” of, and as soon as you’re pulled up on your bullshìt -

“Let’s move on, I thought we agreed to move on, I’m moving on”


It’s just rude in the first place to take a dump on people, but when you try to fcuk off without cleaning up after yourself, that’s just the height of disrespect for the same people you claim to be advocating for. You won’t be told of course that your attitude and behaviour towards others is akin to that of an immature child who isn’t getting their own way, not even on the special day invented by the same immature people whose hearts were in the right place, but they don’t want to actually support anyone, they just want to promote themselves.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You can if you like. The Movember charity is there to raise awareness of men's health issues like prostate cancer, testicular cancer and men's suicide. So its a pretty good cause imo.

But no, you don't have to do anything.

So earnest

Reviews and Books Galore

Joey Adams wrote: »

Women's day: lets celebrate women and their achievements, lets promote women and encourage girls to be the best they can, let's honour femininity

Men's day: suicide and depression

Yeah no thanks.

Hmmm, you've touched upon something pretty sharp there. The world is quite happy, in the modern days, as 'vulnerable/lesser' but are not as happy when men are shown as 'strong' or even greater.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

So let’s just see what happened there:

- You’re advocating that it’s in men’s interests to get involved in international men’s day in order to inform people about issues which affect them

- Men in this thread have pointed out the numerous problems they have identified with your ideas for other men

- You accuse those same men of being part of the problem (Ironicname was kind enough to explain what you may have meant - anyone who disagree with you are a problem, for you).

- You handwave away any men who disagree with your ideas for them, accusing them of being part of a problem that your ideas are attempting to address, tell them they can use the day you’re promoting to air their grievances, and when they air their grievances now, you’re moving on.

“Capitalising on the day throughout the year” me hole, you just want a day that recognises you for your tireless dedication to winding people up and inventing issues with which you can perpetuate the gender wars and perpetuate your own brand of complete fcukwittery while never actually having to do anything to address the issues you claim to be “raising awareness” of, and as soon as you’re pulled up on your bullshìt -

“Let’s move on, I thought we agreed to move on, I’m moving on”


It’s just rude in the first place to take a dump on people, but when you try to fcuk off without cleaning up after yourself, that’s just the height of disrespect for the same people you claim to be advocating for. You won’t be told of course that your attitude and behaviour towards others is akin to that of an immature child who isn’t getting their own way, not even on the special day invented by the same immature people whose hearts were in the right place, but they don’t want to actually support anyone, they just want to promote themselves.

Yeah that’s it. And now do we move on?

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So earnest

Yeah, men specific health issues. Hard to argue against it, in my opinion. Wouldn’t you agree?

El_Duderino 09

Joey Adams wrote: »

Women's day: lets celebrate women and their achievements, lets promote women and encourage girls to be the best they can, let's honour femininity

Men's day: suicide and depression

Yeah no thanks.

Oh yeah. You can focus on health issues or the great achievements by men or the everyday heroes like dads, brothers and sons, teachers or mentors. You can use it to promote whatever you want. Great eh?

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah, men specific health issues. Hard to argue against it, in my opinion. Wouldn’t you agree?

I don’t think you and I would agree on much tbf. But you seem very passionate about it, so good luck to you

suicide_circus

Joey Adams wrote: »

Women's day: lets celebrate women and their achievements, lets promote women and encourage girls to be the best they can, let's honour femininity

Men's day: suicide and depression

Yeah no thanks.

I suppose male achievements are just so ubiquitous and numerous that it makes no sense to celebrate them. i'd argue that mens achievements are also womens achievements since the sexes are completely interdependent.

Silentcorner

Should we begin to start conversations with our friends about the increasingly hostile attitude toward men in media, to the point where just this week, in Australia, on the taxpayer funded TV channel ABC, the feminist panel were advocating violence against men.

The link below outlines what happened, there is a smart intelligent woman in this video, I wonder can you spot her?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANpiR0Hn8FI

El_Duderino 09

suicide_circus wrote: »

I suppose male achievements are just so ubiquitous and numerous that it makes no sense to celebrate them. i'd argue that mens achievements are also womens achievements since the sexes are completely interdependent.

Why would it make no sense to celebrate them? You can pick any of the good ones and celebrate it.

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Problems like the need for information. And standing in opposition to the sharing of information.

There are men's issues which need to be addressed. Information shapes attitudes and opinions. If people have the relevant information they would be more likely to support men's issues. IMD is an opportunity to spread information about men's issues and get people onside to support finding and funding solutions. Standing in the way of that information sharing, talking down IMD and opposing IMD are examples of standing in the way of progress. Thus making the person a part of the problem which also needs to be overcome to find a solution.

For example, last IMD I was in the pub for after work pints. Someone mentioned IMD and one of the women said "shur, every day is men's day". I remember thinking she was someone who I would have expected better from. There were 2 other lads at the table who were able to say that boys are falling behind girls in education, male suicide rates and father's struggling to get access to their children after marriage break up.

She was genuinely surprised as they were issues she had never thought much about before (she didn't know about the suicide or education stats). She was genuinely interested and saw the merit in IMD straight away. That's it. She now has the information she needed to support men's mental health and education. It didn't have to happen on IMD, but it did.

Standing I the way of that kind of discussion is being part of the problem even if they don't like thinking of themselves as a part of the problem.

Or she was shocked somebody stood up to her and got freaked out :P

Reviews and Books Galore

suicide_circus wrote: »

I suppose male achievements are just so ubiquitous and numerous that it makes no sense to celebrate them. i'd argue that mens achievements are also womens achievements since the sexes are completely interdependent.

Kind of like saying behind every strong woman is a man that pays the bill

HorrorScope

Joey Adams wrote: »

Women's day: lets celebrate women and their achievements, lets promote women and encourage girls to be the best they can, let's honour femininity

Men's day: suicide and depression

Yeah no thanks.

Yeah go **** yourself you inconsiderate prick (and no I don’t care if I get banned for this). Women’s day might be a joyful celebration of females and their achievements, meanwhile men’s day is ridiculed and laughed at like in this thread. I’ve lost my 3 of my friends to suicide and yet people like you treat it as a ****ing joke? A day that highlights the issue men face is some topic for comedy?? Sickening.