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So we have become xenophobics now

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    #122
    Gynoid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    beauf wrote: »
    We are a new diverse society. That ship has sailed. The Ireland that was pre 2000 no longer exists. Perhaps some remote area haven't realised this yet. But the Ireland they think exists has vanished.

    Of course there is a new world and more diversity and global movement, all of which can be very vibrant. But people who deal in platitudes need to also be prepared to offer pragmatic analysis or else it is just happy clappy stuff they riff off.
    There are many areas in Africa where the percentage of population who would like to migrate is 70% or more. I would say a lot of people in the Middle East and Eastern Europe feel the same. Cool. Thats the new world, sez you.

    But there has to be a number that is physically and economically viable for more developed countries to accommodate, because to say otherwise is to be an idealist who ignores reality. Too many and all boats are not lifted - instead there is swamping - societal unrest, over-loading of welfare systems, cultural clashing.
    So the number is an issue. And even if you are super generous the saturation number will eventually be reached and inevitably lead to a barrier coming down and the death of the ideal of one world and open borders. Any number creates a Hunger Games scenario, a race to get in under the barrier. It is in its very essence cruelty. This reality undermines the dream of Star Trek planetary oneness.

    The better solution to the perennial migration desire is to raise standards of living globally and quickly, so that people are not forced to migrate and can build their home places into good places to live. Equalise living conditions on the planet.

    Also any regressive cultural ideologies need to be critiqued openly and strongly - culturally supported maltreatment of women or gay people, for example, or religious practices like FGM or child marriage. This is not what is allowed now. We have cultural relativism now, a bizarre indulgence.

    Open borders and a new world scenario can only lead to cruelty and suffering the way things are now.


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    #123
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I'm just saying the horse has bolted.

    Our services are overwhelmed. If you have someone how is old or sick or needs help you quickly realise no one is doing the maths.

    We are the Titanic and are going full steam ahead...


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    #124
    Bobblehats
    Registered Users Posts: 4,707 ✭✭✭Bobblehats


    beauf wrote: »
    We are the Titanic and are going full steam ahead...

    I still hold hope we can slow it down because it’s a crash course in a means to to our own demise. I acknowledge It’s impossible to stop now but it’s not something we should seek to further hasten. I can’t take up that self defeatist attitude in resigning myself to being dead before then. I don’t wanna be that guy, besides at the rate of knots we are going I won’t...we may need to forcibly take the wheel in a last ditch attempt to overthrow the mutinous captain at the helm and navigate our own way out of this shipwreck. Before we all perish!


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    #125
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Yup, but you'll note K, that Leo even here while being forced into stating the bloody obvious stayed within script as he only mentioned White migrants, while avoiding those from Zimbabwe and Nigeria who also figure highly in the stats.

    Comparing acts of colonisation and invasion hardly helps your argument. As for amalgamation and mutual assimilation, we're still feeling the effects of the next group of Norsemen who "moved" here. And frankly I'm in no mood to wait around centuries for "amalgamation and mutual assimilation" when the actual real life evidence of the many social ills are plain to see in all the other European nations living with "multiculturalism". Certainly not for some lame brained ideology, an ideology that has failed. Though sadly the influx during the boom already sowed the seeds of that. However we can at least make a stand now and say no more thanks. So I support the local protesters wherever the vested interests in business and government blatantly ride roughshod over this nation's wishes, locally and nationally. If there was such a centre to be forced into my area I'd be right there with them.

    anyone who has spent any time in western continental europe know what youre saying to be true. the indigenous and the migrant populations live parallel to one another. A very few at the fringes mix freely, the vast majority live completely seperately. a vague but palpable tension lives just beneath the surface.


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    #126
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Bobblehats wrote: »
    ... I can’t take up that self defeatist attitude ...

    It's not defeatist. It's self preservation. Find your own life boat. Stop wasting your time trying to convince people who don't want to listen.


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    #127
    Raconteuse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Raconteuse


    wakka12 wrote: »
    I despise when media refer to collective 'we' as becoming more racist or prejudiced. Im not becoming more racist, whatever group is in question in Achill ,may be.I would also say youre trivialising what is probably a much more complex issue than you recongnise if you think the only reason people might be apprehensive about something like this is because they are racist. 'We' Irish are not becoming more racist, and most irish people are not racist, at all. Despite some irish people wishing with all their hearts that more irish people were racist so they would have justification give out about it all day online
    Hugely agreed mostly. Some people love saying Ireland is this dreadfully hostile place. But at the same time, I think there may be a bit of an increase in far right ideology. Going by the internet anyway.


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    #128
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Raconteuse wrote: »
    I think there may be a bit of an increase in far right ideology. Going by the internet anyway.
    why "far" right? why not just "right"?


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    #129
    Bobblehats
    Registered Users Posts: 4,707 ✭✭✭Bobblehats


    beauf wrote: »
    It's not defeatist. It's self preservation. Find your own life boat. Stop wasting your time trying to convince people who don't want to listen.

    We’re probably already that point where generation who don’t know any different will be like “what u talkin bout Willis”


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    #130
    Raconteuse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Raconteuse


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    why "far" right? why not just "right"?
    Well I'd consider right to be just conservative, not extreme. Concerned about the potential impact of mass migration but not full of hatred.

    When I say far right I mean those who have extreme views, like Gemma O'Doherty.


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    #131
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Raconteuse wrote: »
    Well I'd consider right to be just conservative, not extreme. Concerned about the potential impact of mass migration but not full of hatred.

    When I say far right I mean those who have extreme views, like Gemma O'Doherty.
    Ok, i see the concern part, i dont see the full of hate part i must confess.


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    #132
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    why "far" right? why not just "right"?

    Stereotyping is more important than listening.


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    #133
    Raconteuse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Raconteuse


    beauf wrote: »
    Stereotyping is more important than listening.
    Kinda like the way you ignored my follow-up explanation!

    The Gemma O'D type nut jobs are who I'm referring to (and they are hate filled) not folk who are just conservative. I hold conservative views on some stuff myself.


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    #134
    Gynoid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    I saw a casual theory the other day, just putting it out there, don't know if worthwhile, but it gave me pause for thought.

    It is not that people are becoming more right or left or whatever. It is that the modes of communication enable us all to clearly now see just how very differently people think.
    People have always thought quite extreme things in any direction, it was just that early on the masses were illiterate, then did not have publication platforms, but now everyone does.
    I think people have always had odd and inflammatory opinions. I only have to remember listening to relatives from childhood to know that. Or look at what used to be page 3 style papers which I rarely came across as a young person but when I did your jaw would be dropped all day long in the 80s reading about the weirdness/rudeness/strangeness of people.



    giphy.gif


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    #135
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Raconteuse wrote: »
    Kinda like the way you ignored my follow-up explanation!

    The Gemma O'D type nut jobs are who I'm referring to (and they are hate filled) not folk who are just conservative. I hold conservative views on some stuff myself.

    What the connection between Achill and the "far right"...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics


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    #136
    Raconteuse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Raconteuse


    beauf wrote: »
    What the connection between Achill and the "far right"...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics
    But I didn't say or imply there was a connection. :confused:

    I completely understand where the people of Achill are coming from. I was talking in general, not specifically about the people of Achill.

    Mother of god, people really do love putting words in people's mouths around here...


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    #137
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Isn't that the premise of this whole thread...
    2lazytogetup wrote: »
    One of the things i was proud of in ireland was there was no far right groups.

    But looks like we are are xenophobic as the rest of them:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2019/1031/1087856-achill-asylum-seekers/

    Those protestors should hang their heads in shame.

    im a bit disappointed the department of justice is bowing to pressure.

    I've no idea what the issues are in Achill. But if someone said to me I'll like to move to Ireland. I'm not sure Achill would be my first choice.


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    #138
    Raconteuse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Raconteuse


    But I was responding to one post by wakka12 about Ireland in general.


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    #139
    statesaver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭statesaver


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    I honestly do think that the issue of lack of services is just an excuse to keep the foreigners out, I have seen it in small towns in the west of Ireland, a family moves in from Dublin and the locals wont even talk to them because they are Dubs, what chance do foreigners have?

    Cool story. :cool:


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    #140
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    But it's interesting how the thread has moved from a local issue to a sweeping generalising for the whole country.


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    #141
    Raconteuse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Raconteuse


    The post I responded to (#6 of this thread): https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111656743&postcount=6


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    #142
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,383 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    I don't know why the Government is so reluctant to reform the whole process, all they have to do is get rid of the right to appeal and when a decision is made send them back on the first available flight if they are refused the right to stay.

    Having people who are not even citizens using the court system free of charge to appeal decisions is ridiculous, it also gives them time to have kids when it drags on for years which in turn makes it even harder to deport them down the line.


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    #143
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Kicking the bucket down the road is the only thing this govt does...


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    #144
    blueshade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 428 ✭✭blueshade


    Listening to Ruth Coppinger and that other gimp from SF earlier and it's clear that they think that every migrant showing up in Ireland should be handed the keys to a house. It'd be really nice if the fools that voted for these people didn't do it again. Still, it would be interesting to listen to Ruth explain to Anto and Jacinta that Ahmed and Fatima or Lucky and his missus have to be given priority over them.


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    #145
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,461 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Yamanoto wrote: »
    We negotiated an opt-out with the EU on matters justice and immigration, so AFAIK, we are not under any obligation to hit quotas when it comes to resettlement.

    We have a very pro neoliberal political establishment, of course they'll take lots of migrants and refugees.


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    #146
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,383 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    WTF did they negotiate for the opt out clause if they were never going to use it!


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    #147
    PostWoke
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 559 ✭✭✭PostWoke


    Several day old thread and I'm only now realizing the term is actually 'xenophobes', not 'xenophobics'.


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    #148
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    I don't know why the Government is so reluctant to reform the whole process, all they have to do is get rid of the right to appeal and when a decision is made send them back on the first available flight if they are refused the right to stay.

    Having people who are not even citizens using the court system free of charge to appeal decisions is ridiculous, it also gives them time to have kids when it drags on for years which in turn makes it even harder to deport them down the line.

    The current process is in the interests of some powerful vested interests. The legal profession and large property owners are making fortunes out of the process because of its inefficiency and ineffectiveness.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #149
    Mules
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Mules


    Danzy wrote: »
    We have a very pro neoliberal political establishment, of course they'll take lots of migrants and refugees.

    Immigration is an interesting one because both neoliberals and the left wing are strongly in favour of it, albeit for different reasons. I wonder is the left wing support for immigration due to its' focus on socially pogressive issues rather than on workers rights.
    I've noticed that many politicians seem mystified by traditional labour supporters voting for ukip and union members voting for Trump.
    Personally I think a lot of traditional left wing voters aren't really interested in gay marriage or transgender people or whatever social issue is popular. I believe these things are often more important to the middle class leftists because they don't have to worry about conditions and wages in low paid jobs. They may also be more supportive of large scale immigration because they aren't in competition with immigrants for public services.

    Mainstream politicians talk a lot about imigration leading to increased economic activity, resulting in increased GDP. They don't seem to understand that most people are more interested in decent public services.


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    #150
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Capitalists like immigration because it means cheap labour, skilled and unskilled.
    With more competition for low skill jobs the factory owners can dump salaries.
    The workers are in favour of this for some reason.

    Leftists say that if a foreigner took your job maybe it's because you're **** at it. Workers thinks this funny for some reason.


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