GN Toilets

p1akuw47h5r3it

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I get that the focus of your argument is solely on women’s safety, but where I’m coming from is the idea of introducing measures that make prisons safer for everyone, regardless of their gender. That way the idea is to protect people, regardless of their gender, from becoming victims of physical and sexual abuse by sexual predators, regardless of the gender of the perpetrator.

That way, everyones safety is increased as opposed to just measures which focus on prioritising anyone by virtue of their gender. Women in prison and men in prison are subjected to physical and sexual assaults and abuse daily, primarily caused by other inmates of the same sex as themselves, and there are a minority of prison officers who physically and sexually abuse prisoners. It’s not the gender of the perpetrator or the victim that’s the issue, it’s the fact that putting sexual predators and prisoners who are known to be violent among the prison population is like putting a fox in a chicken coop. What do they think is likely to happen? That’s why the procedures around supervision and monitoring prisoners and keeping prisoners safe from those people who would physically and sexually abuse and assault them is a far better strategy than just separating prisoners by sex.

It’s not the fact that they place prisoners who are transgender among either the female or male prison population that increases the risk to other prisoners, it’s the fact that there are people who are sexual predators who take advantage of the way the system is set up, to physically and sexually abuse other people.

No I agree with you to extent. What I am asking is why increase the risk?

When a self-id "women" enters prison they are monitored more, due to the fact that they are really a man and thus have a penis and are physically stronger. It may not be possible with current resources to non-stop have a guard beside a self-id women in a prison. And by doing this more man-power is used up for this one person on average then the rest of the prison population. And it's done needlessly.

We have to deal with the way things are, not how we'd like them to be re resources, monitoring etc.

So I ask again, why increase the risk to the female prison population?

From the link posted by another poster:

It is understood that the prisoner was assigned a high level of monitoring after being convicted of ten counts of sexual assault and one count of cruelty against a child.

The prisoner is accompanied by two officers at all times while in the common areas of the detention facility.

“The Irish Prison Service must accept all prisoners into custody, into whatever prison that a judge orders,” Minister Charlie Flanagan said in response to a parliamentary question from Aontú TD Peadar Tóibín, on 12 September.

Robert Purcell is chair of the Law Society Criminal Law Committee: “The law that was enacted in 2015 did not envisage this situation, and it puts the Prison Service and the courts in a difficult position because, obviously, if somebody is self-declaring that they have to be recognised, then they have to be dealt with on that basis, even though physically, they have not have made the [physical] transformation.

And all because of silly self-id laws.

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So you haven't been reading my posts at all, and have presented a strawman argument to hide the fact.

That, or you can quote a post where I said exactly that, using the word "man brain" or "woman brain".

OK so you don't think there's a male brain or a female brain.

My apologies, I have completely misread you.

I thought you were one of these loons who think that you can have the 'wrong' brain in your body.

drunkmonkey

Why is anyone the slightest bit worried about bad people in prison. I'd say the old don't drop the soap line was enough to convince a lot of men to avoid a life of crime, is it any harm women now have the same fear. It's all a deterrent.

kildare lad

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The toilets-issue at this stage is a bit of a distraction.

The question is: should women have safe spaces where men can't go; and how do you stop men pretending to be transwomen to get into them?

Because sticking your head in the sand and pretending transwomen don't exist; or that they are all a pack of liars, is at best, confirmation bias; and at worst, downright ignorant.

There all ready is a safe space where women can go , it's called the woman's toilet . And that's the way it should be . I wouldn't fancy my girlfriend or daughter going into a toilet in a bar that's full of pissed fellas . I don't really care if there's a gender neutral toilet as long as theirs men's and women's aswell. A very small minority of people are doing their best to make life as awkward for every one else. A lot of it's just a small group of vocal attention seekers who can't decided what day to be male or female or neither .

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

OK so you don't think there's a male brain or a female brain.

My apologies, I have completely misread you.

I thought you were one of these loons who think that you can have the 'wrong' brain in your body.

Fair enough, but I did say "psychological" meaning mind fairly often.

It's neither "right" nor "wrong". My point being that gender psychology - psychological traits more associated with one gender more than the other - is a real thing and gender dysphoria is when it contradicts the physical gender.

To say that one doesn't exist or that they are automatically correctly aligned in every person as invisibleman claimed is somewhere between ignorant and confirmation bias.

ceadaoin.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fair enough, but I did say "psychological" meaning mind fairly often.

It's neither "right" nor "wrong". My point being that gender psychology - psychological traits more associated with one gender more than the other - is a real thing and gender dysphoria is when it contradicts the physical gender.

To say that one doesn't exist or that they are automatically correctly aligned in every person as invisibleman claimed is somewhere between ignorant and confirmation bias.

Probably better to do away with rigidly enforced gender stereotypes then. The we'd have fewer kids being told that their bodies dont "match" their brain so therefore must start on a pathway of a lifetime of medicalization.

I mean really, most people arent completely "correctly aligned " whatever that means. It's not like is one set way to be a man or a woman

Annasopra

DanDan6592 wrote: »

No I agree with you to extent. What I am asking is why increase the risk?

When a self-id "women" enters prison they are monitored more, due to the fact that they are really a man and thus have a penis and are physically stronger. It may not be possible with current resources to non-stop have a guard beside a self-id women in a prison. And by doing this more man-power is used up for this one person on average then the rest of the prison population. And it's done needlessly.

We have to deal with the way things are, not how we'd like them to be re resources, monitoring etc.

So I ask again, why increase the risk to the female prison population?

From the link posted by another poster:



And all because of silly self-id laws.

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

What?

Who said all self id trans women dont have gender confirming surgery. Thats news to me.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

My point being that gender psychology - psychological traits more associated with one gender more than the other - is a real thing and gender dysphoria is when it contradicts the physical gender.

Sorry, you are doing it again.

So if someone has 'psychological traits more associated with one gender' and that contradicts their biological sex, then they have gender dysphoria?

Please name one of these psychological traits.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What?

Who said all self id trans women dont have gender confirming surgery. Thats news to me.

Nice obfuscation.

I suppose when you are going into bat for rapists in a women's prison then attempting to deflect is the only course of action.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What?

Who said all self id trans women dont have gender confirming surgery. Thats news to me.

Nobody. I said self-id and put women in inverted commas, the insinuation being that they are men, with a penis. I never used the word trans. That was just you.

ceadaoin.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What?

Who said all self id trans women dont have gender confirming surgery. Thats news to me.

Does it not raise any questions with you when it has emerged that an estimated 1 in 50 male prisoners in the UK are now identifying as trans? Like does that not pierce your bubble at all and make you think that maybe the self id system is being abused?

I'd be interested to know whether Joeytheparrot agrees with putting rapists into women's prisons, and how many sexual assaults he thinks would be OK as a result.

It seems to me one side of this debate always work desperately hard not to answer simple questions like this. Yes or no would do, but we won't get a straight answer, you can be absolutely sure of that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Probably better to do away with rigidly enforced gender stereotypes then. The we'd have fewer kids being told that their bodies dont "match" their brain so therefore must start on a pathway of a lifetime of medicalization.

I mean really, most people arent completely "correctly aligned " whatever that means. It's not like is one set way to be a man or a woman

Why does everyone seen to misread my posts today..

I just told one poster I never used the word brain - and then you show up...??

Also, id argue doing away with all 'rigidly-enforced stereotypes' on the basis they serve no purpose.

Kids don't have problems understanding any of this by the way, it's adults who have problems

Annasopra

Deleted User wrote: »

Nice obfuscation.

I suppose when you are going into bat for rapists in a women's prison then attempting to deflect is the only course of action.

I am not at all going to bat for rapists but yeah obfuscate away yourself.

Ironicname

Deleted User wrote:

I'd be interested to know whether Joeytheparrot agrees with putting rapists into women's prisons, and how many sexual assaults he thinks would be OK as a result.

As many as it takes just once people are "inclusive". That's the only important factor.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I am not at all going to bat for rapists but yeah obfuscate away yourself.

You are when you seemingly have no problem with them entering women's prison based on them simply saying they are female.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry, you are doing it again.

So if someone has 'psychological traits more associated with one gender' and that contradicts their biological sex, then they have gender dysphoria?

Nope, not the correct definition

Please name one of these psychological traits.

Irrelevant.

victor8600

kildare lad wrote: »

There all ready is a safe space where women can go , it's called the woman's toilet . And that's the way it should be . I wouldn't fancy my girlfriend or daughter going into a toilet in a bar that's full of pissed fellas . I don't really care if there's a gender neutral toilet as long as theirs men's and women's aswell. A very small minority of people are doing their best to make life as awkward for every one else. A lot of it's just a small group of vocal attention seekers who can't decided what day to be male or female or neither .

The small minority who make life awkward are those who would force a woman to use a toilet as a safe space. And no, this is NOT the way it should be.

One eyed Jack

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Really?

...

Which part is nonsense?

Yes really.

Which part is nonsense? Well the fact that none of what you said addresses what I actually said, and I didn’t have to multiquote to point that out either.

One eyed Jack

DanDan6592 wrote: »

We have to deal with the way things are, not how we'd like them to be re resources, monitoring etc.

So I ask again, why increase the risk to the female prison population?

We do have to deal with the way things are, and we’re dealing with the way things are. We’re not increasing the risk to the female population solely by virtue of housing inmates who are transgender in either men’s or women’s prisons, the increased risk comes from the fact that some inmates, regardless of their gender, are sexual predators. See for example the recent case of the female teacher who was found guilty of defilement of a 16 year old boy -

Female teacher who had sexual relationship with student, 16, tells court she is truly sorry


If I actually wanted to really drive home the point, I too can google for incidents in other jurisdictions of female sexual predators, but to be honest I really don’t think that’s necessary, because it’s not the gender of the perpetrator is the point, it’s that the person is just a sexual predator.

p1akuw47h5r3it

One eyed Jack wrote: »

We do have to deal with the way things are, and we’re dealing with the way things are. We’re not increasing the risk to the female population solely by virtue of housing inmates who are transgender in either men’s or women’s prisons, the increased risk comes from the fact that some inmates, regardless of their gender, are sexual predators. See for example the recent case of the female teacher who was found guilty of defilement of a 16 year old boy -

Female teacher who had sexual relationship with student, 16, tells court she is truly sorry


If I actually wanted to really drive home the point, I too can google for incidents in other jurisdictions of female sexual predators, but to be honest I really don’t think that’s necessary, because it’s not the gender of the perpetrator is the point, it’s that the person is just a sexual predator.

Yes, but men far more so. Regardless, there is nothing stopping a sexual predator self iding as a woman to be put in with women. This is the point. This has happened already as you know. This is the point. Someone else posted that 1 in 50 inmates are now "declaring", I'd imagine it's mostly men declaring as women. Do you honestly not see the problem if that number of male inmates had to be put in female prisons?

A women has a far higher chance of fending of unwanted advances by another women, then she does a male.

ceadaoin.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

We do have to deal with the way things are, and we’re dealing with the way things are. We’re not increasing the risk to the female population solely by virtue of housing inmates who are transgender in either men’s or women’s prisons, the increased risk comes from the fact that some inmates, regardless of their gender, are sexual predators. See for example the recent case of the female teacher who was found guilty of defilement of a 16 year old boy -

Female teacher who had sexual relationship with student, 16, tells court she is truly sorry


If I actually wanted to really drive home the point, I too can google for incidents in other jurisdictions of female sexual predators, but to be honest I really don’t think that’s necessary, because it’s not the gender of the perpetrator is the point, it’s that the person is just a sexual predator.

99% of sex offenders currently imprisoned in the UK are male. As of 2018, that's 13,580 men and 128 women (and no doubt some of those recorded as female actually arent). There is substantially less risk of a woman being sexually assaulted by a female sex offender in prison.

As I mentioned earlier with 1 in 50 males in prison now identifying as female, and a large proportion of those being sex offenders, the risk is substantially increased if they are housed with women. Are you actually disputing this? Especially considering that the female estate just doesn't have the resources to correctly deal with such an increase in the number of dangerous prisoners.

One eyed Jack

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Yes, but men far more so. Regardless, there is nothing stopping a sexual predator self iding as a woman to be put in with women. This is the point. This has happened already as you know. This is the point. Someone else posted that 1 in 50 inmates are now "declaring", I'd imagine it's mostly men declaring as women. Do you honestly not see the problem if that number of male inmates had to be put in female prisons?

A women has a far higher chance of fending of unwanted advances by another women, then she does a male.

So house them with the Scissors Sisters, solves a multitude of problems - snip snip :pac:

I’m only half joking, I have no sympathy whatsoever for sex offenders, regardless of their gender.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Nope, not the correct definition

You just said exactly that:

"My point being that gender psychology - psychological traits more associated with one gender more than the other - is a real thing and gender dysphoria is when it contradicts the physical gender"

Gender psychology = psychological traits more associated with one gender more than the other (sic)
Gender dysphoria = when gender psychology contradicts physical gender

So what are these psychological traits more associated with one gender, the presence of which, when it contradicts 'physical gender', results in gender dysphoria?

In your own time.

p1akuw47h5r3it

One eyed Jack wrote: »

So house them with the Scissors Sisters, solves a multitude of problems - snip snip :pac:

:pac::pac: I had to laugh at that!

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m only half joking, I have no sympathy whatsoever for sex offenders, regardless of their gender.

Neither do I. Hence why I don't want some of them having the option of self-declaring to gain access to women, regardless if those women are sex offenders themselves!

Ironicname

With people who support self identification but also deride JY, what is it about JY that makes you not respect their claim that they represent the trans movement?

Gynoid

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd be interested to know whether Joeytheparrot agrees with putting rapists into women's prisons, and how many sexual assaults he thinks would be OK as a result.

It seems to me one side of this debate always work desperately hard not to answer simple questions like this. Yes or no would do, but we won't get a straight answer, you can be absolutely sure of that.

Collateral damage. There have already been rapes in prisons and refuges by trans identifying males. Abuse of children in dressing rooms. Assault in unisex showers. Upskirting. Voyeurism. Period shaming. Girls avoiding peeing or even school. Political support of TIMs who have been accused of sexual crimes. All already happening. In UK. It is just collateral damage to those pushing the agenda. Hundreds if not thousands of children on drastic life limiting experimental medication.. These are heartless idealogues fundamentally.

ceadaoin.

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Yes, but men far more so. Regardless, there is nothing stopping a sexual predator self iding as a woman to be put in with women. This is the point. This has happened already as you know. This is the point. Someone else posted that 1 in 50 inmates are now "declaring", I'd imagine it's mostly men declaring as women. Do you honestly not see the problem if that number of male inmates had to be put in female prisons?

A women has a far higher chance of fending of unwanted advances by another women, then she does a male.

Here is a link about the 1 in 50 stat, and yes thats the figure for males only

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/one-50-prisoners-identify-transsexual-first-figures-show-amid/

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

You just said exactly that:

"My point being that gender psychology - psychological traits more associated with one gender more than the other - is a real thing and gender dysphoria is when it contradicts the physical gender"

Gender psychology = psychological traits more associated with one gender more than the other (sic)
Gender dysphoria = when gender psychology contradicts physical gender

So what are these psychological traits more associated with one gender, the presence of which, when it contradicts 'physical gender', results in gender dysphoria?

In your own time.

I'm not suggesting it's a case of take a quiz and tick X boxes and they tell you what gender you are. It's up to the individual to decide.

This, again would be gender nonconformity. '7 put of 10 - I must be a woman then".

Lefty Bicek

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I am not at all going to bat for rapists but yeah obfuscate away yourself.

Answer the question.