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GN Toilets

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    #272
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,788 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    manbitesdog wrote: »
    Then I come back to asking you to explain why have a problem with it, and I will decide if I find the reasons persuasive or not. I don’t automatically just respect every and anyone’s preferences on how they want to be described.

    Others have already said it, but thank you for this post.

    It both highlights the arrogance of the identity politics movement and walks itself into a brick wall by acknowledging that no one has to automatically accept and acknowledge someone's personal gender preferences if they don't personally find them persuasive.

    For myself, I think I'll stick with my usual approach. Call yourself whatever you want and live however makes you happy. But don't expect me to ignore reality or facts, or adjust my own lifestyle, speech or value system to accommodate it.


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    #273
    Sittingpretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,872 ✭✭✭Sittingpretty


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    That's like saying "hetrosexual" and "not heterosexual" - we don't need the word "homosexual"

    Or "tall" and "not tall" - we don't need a word for small.

    It’s entirely not like that at all.


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    #274
    Sittingpretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,872 ✭✭✭Sittingpretty


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Others have already said it, but thank you for this post.

    It both highlights the arrogance of the identity politics movement and walks itself into a brick wall by acknowledging that no one has to automatically accept and acknowledge someone's personal gender preferences if they don't personally find them persuasive.

    For myself, I think I'll stick with my usual approach. Call yourself whatever you want and live however makes you happy. But don't expect me to ignore reality or facts, or adjust my own lifestyle, speech or value system to accommodate it.

    This.


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    #275
    SoupMonster
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭SoupMonster


    Sittingpretty wrote: »
    It’s entirely not like that at all.

    It's more like the UK Green Party, men and non-men.

    It's progressive and inclusive and has the added advantage of pissing off vast numbers of non-men.


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    #276
    manbitesdog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭manbitesdog


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Others have already said it, but thank you for this post.

    It both highlights the arrogance of the identity politics movement and walks itself into a brick wall by acknowledging that no one has to automatically accept and acknowledge someone's personal gender preferences if they don't personally find them persuasive.

    For myself, I think I'll stick with my usual approach. Call yourself whatever you want and live however makes you happy. But don't expect me to ignore reality or facts, or adjust my own lifestyle, speech or value system to accommodate it.

    I’m not part of any movement and I certainly don’t speak for anyone else. All I’m saying above is that I have heard the case for using cisgender in contexts where I want to distinguish between a cisperson and a transperson, and I find the case persuasive, because if I say “man” in contrast with “transman”, that implies that transmen aren’t men, only pretending to be men, or somehow mistaken in their gender identity, and they find that hurtful.

    Against that, I’ve got people saying “I don’t want to be called a cisman, just a man.” Despite several posts now claiming that reasons for this have been provided, they haven’t been. But I can speculate what the objection is: it’s that the posters don’t regard trans people as the gender they present as, because they think being a man or woman is biologically determined.

    Nobody is going to force you to use this terminology, or to profess to hold views that you don’t. But society at large may decide that your views are outmoded and bigoted. What you might face consequences for is deliberately misgendering a person in, for example, a school or workplace, where it could be considered transphobic bullying.


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    #277
    antix80
    Registered Users Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    manbitesdog wrote: »
    Nobody is going to force you to use this terminology, or to profess to hold views that you don’t. But society at large may decide that your views are outmoded and bigoted.

    Society at large wants nothing to do with this thought control crap.

    I'd never "misgender" a "trans" person. I'd avoid their pronouns and use their assumed name.


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    #278
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    manbitesdog wrote: »
    I’m not part of any movement and I certainly don’t speak for anyone else. All I’m saying above is that I have heard the case for using cisgender in contexts where I want to distinguish between a cisperson and a transperson, and I find the case persuasive, because if I say “man” in contrast with “transman”, that implies that transmen aren’t men, only pretending to be men, or somehow mistaken in their gender identity, and they find that hurtful.

    Against that, I’ve got people saying “I don’t want to be called a cisman, just a man.” Despite several posts now claiming that reasons for this have been provided, they haven’t been. But I can speculate what the objection is: it’s that the posters don’t regard trans people as the gender they present as, because they think being a man or woman is biologically determined.

    Nobody is going to force you to use this terminology, or to profess to hold views that you don’t. But society at large may decide that your views are outmoded and bigoted.

    But they aren't men. A man is an "adult human male". A transman is not a male, they are females who identify as male and want to transition to a male-like body. And that is perfectly fine. But this is why the term trans exists, precisely because a trans man is not a man in the true definition of the word. They may act like and feel like a typical average man, but they are not one (edit starts here) in a biological sense at least.

    I still fail to see why you can't use transgendered and non transgendered anyhow. You were the one who brought up the use of "inclusive language", yet aren't willing to use it yourself.


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    #279
    manbitesdog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭manbitesdog


    antix80 wrote: »
    Society at large wants nothing to do with this thought control crap.

    Like when Ireland decided people can self ID their gender?


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    #280
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    manbitesdog wrote: »
    Like when Ireland decided people can self ID their gender?

    When did Ireland decide this? I don't remember there being a referendum. I'd imagine most people aren't even aware that these self Id laws even exist, since there was virtually no debate around their introduction, and no political party campaigned on their introduction that I'm aware of.


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    #281
    manbitesdog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭manbitesdog


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    But they aren't men. A man is an "adult human male". A transman is not a male, they are females who identify as male and want to transition to a male-like body. And that is perfectly fine. But this is why the term trans exists, precisely because a trans man is not a man in the true definition of the word. They may act like and feel like a typical average man, but they are not one.

    I still fail to see why you can't use transgendered and non transgendered anyhow. You were the one who brought up the use of "inclusive language", yet aren't willing to use it yourself.

    Dictionary definitions aren’t the be all and end all.


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    #282
    manbitesdog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭manbitesdog


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    When did Ireland decide this? I don't remember there being a referendum. I'd imagine most people aren't even aware that these self Id laws even exist, since there was virtually no debate around their introduction, and no political party campaigned on their introduction that I'm aware of.

    Ireland rarely decides things via referendum; that is afaik exclusively reserved for Constitutional changes. The law has been around for four years now, and I don’t notice any groundswell of public opinion against it.


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    #283
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    manbitesdog wrote: »
    Dictionary definitions aren’t the be all and end all.

    Ridiculous response. Sure anything can come to mean anything if that's the case, since no words have any true meaning.

    But that is all part of the ideology really, it's like how a minority of leftwingers in America and the UK are trying to redefine racism as being based on power structures as opposed to simply being discriminated against based on your race.


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    #284
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    manbitesdog wrote: »
    Ireland rarely decides things via referendum; that is afaik exclusively reserved for Constitutional changes. The law has been around for four years now, and I don’t notice any groundswell of public opinion against it.

    Because nobody knows it exists. What political party campaigned on introducing self-Id laws?


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    #285
    antix80
    Registered Users Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    manbitesdog wrote: »
    Like when Ireland decided people can self ID their gender?

    There was no referendum. Just something enforced on us by our european overlords who said "jump" and we said "how high"?


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    #286
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,042 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    But they aren't men. A man is an "adult human male". A transman is not a male, they are females who identify as male and want to transition to a male-like body. And that is perfectly fine. But this is why the term trans exists, precisely because a trans man is not a man in the true definition of the word. They may act like and feel like a typical average man, but they are not one (edit starts here) in a biological sense at least.

    I still fail to see why you can't use transgendered and non transgendered anyhow. You were the one who brought up the use of "inclusive language", yet aren't willing to use it yourself.

    Transgendered hasnt been used for a long time. Thats like saying you are heterosexualised.

    Noone objects to people describing them as straight or heterosexual so honestly I cant take this umbrage at cis being used seriously.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #287
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,042 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    antix80 wrote: »
    There was no referendum. Just something enforced on us by our european overlords who said "jump" and we said "how high"?

    There didnt need to be a referendum.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #288
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Transgendered hasnt been used for a long time. Thats like saying you are heterosexualised.

    Noone objects to people describing them as straight or heterosexual so honestly I cant take this umbrage at cis being used seriously.

    Ofcourse you can't. You are all for being inclusive and using inclusive language up until the point it doesn't suit you, and people's requests are suddenly dismissed as "umbrage".


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    #289
    antix80
    Registered Users Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    There didnt need to be a referendum.

    There should have been, given our constitution refers to women and this changes the definition of "woman."

    You'd find most people don't view transwomen as actual women.


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    #290
    Ironicname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭Ironicname


    Transgender is a state of mind. It makes no difference to biology.

    A man will always be a man, a woman will always be a woman.

    You can feel whatever you want to feel. I doesn't change reality.


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    #291
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    Cis is a word that is being used purely to give affirmation to an ideology that has zero scientific standing. Approx one in a thousand (0.1%) are born with either a sixth finger or toe on one limb. This stat far outnumbers the amount of people who are born gender dysphoric, yet we don't need a special word ascribed to people who are born with the normal amount of digits.

    The arguments for the use of Cis are usually made by people who also argue that sex is a spectrum and that you can be born in the wrong body. There is no comparison to the differantiators, hetero and homosexual. Homosexuality is scientifically observed and occurs naturally in up to 10% of the population. Hetero and homo are as synonymous as right and left handed. Cis is being applied to 99.98% of the population and is redundant.


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    #292
    MEGA BRO WOLF 5000
    Registered Users Posts: 17,438 ✭✭✭✭MEGA BRO WOLF 5000


    Ironicname wrote: »
    You can feel whatever you want to feel. I doesn't change reality.

    Reality. The thing that's missing in their arguments.


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    #293
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,788 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Hunky Monster wrote: »
    Reality. The thing that's missing in their arguments.

    That's basically what it comes down to..

    The idea that feelings and self-assumed identity trump basic biology and historical facts about the person.

    They don't.

    As I said previously, people are free to identify as whatever they wish, and live however makes them happy, but that is their choice (and right) alone. It does NOT mean that others must believe it, advocate for it, or celebrate it. All those others must do is treat the individual with respect (also known as basic decency).

    Tolerance and acceptance is a two way street.


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    #294
    Princess Calla
    Registered Users Posts: 5,843 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    In the last week we've had a person bringing women to court because they refused to wax the persons bits.... Did that person go to a salon that specialises is waxing every type of bits...no that would be the sensible non attention seeking route, they purposely singled out women who for religious reasons wouldn't never touch said bits.

    Then it moved onto the packaging of sanitary towels, of all the items in the world.... Not only do I have to suffer the indignation of paying a "luxury tax" on them, ffs, now I'm listening to someone moan about a symbol on them.....here's an idea if they offend you don't use them.

    Now it's toilets, can't even have a p1ss in peace. Do I want to step out of a cubicle and be faced with guys at urinals, no! I'm also fairly sure many men don't want that either.

    Then to top it all off I'm being told no I can't get offended by being labelled a ciswoman.

    Do you know something, whatever sympathy I had for the trans community it's rapidly depleting. For a community that says they want inclusion they should really step back and look at themselves.


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    #295
    MEGA BRO WOLF 5000
    Registered Users Posts: 17,438 ✭✭✭✭MEGA BRO WOLF 5000


    Princess Calla wrote: »
    Do you know something, whatever sympathy I had for the trans community it's rapidly depleting. For a community that says they want inclusion they should really step back and look at themselves.

    I agree with most of what you've said but what you're reading online doesn't represent most of the trans community, trans people for the most part are just like you and me, sensible human beings, its the twitter brigade who scream the loudest who are giving the rest of them a bad name. The media then picks up on these absolute lunatics and gives them a megaphone to project their insanity, our leftist government and papers then entertain this nonsense when the man on the street knows how absolute bonkers it all is and everyone is left walking on eggshells for fear of being labelled transphobe for not thinking someone born a man can stick a dress on and is now 100% a woman, bollocks he is!


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    #296
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,788 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Princess Calla wrote: »
    Do you know something, whatever sympathy I had for the trans community it's rapidly depleting. For a community that says they want inclusion they should really step back and look at themselves.

    Same here. In fact any of these modern crusades (identity, immigration, climate etc) follow the same simplistic and adversarial model - "you're with us or against us".

    There's nothing more sure to alienate people than being told what to think without opportunity for reasonable debate and where ideology is held higher than facts or reality.

    In many ways it's like a religious cult in that it demands blind adherence from its followers.

    No thanks. We finally moved past one damaging religious ideology (for the most part) in this country. I see no reason to replace it with others - especially ones from the US which generally have very little relevance outside of their own borders.


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    #297
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,788 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Hunky Monster wrote: »
    I agree with most of what you've said but what you're reading online doesn't represent most of the trans community, trans people for the most part are just like you and me, sensible human beings, its the twitter brigade who scream the loudest who are giving the rest of them a bad name. The media then picks up on these absolute lunatics and gives them a megaphone to project their insanity, our leftist government and papers then entertain this nonsense when the man on the street knows how absolute bonkers it all is and everyone is left walking on eggshells for fear of being labelled transphobe for not thinking someone born a man can stick a dress on and is now 100% a woman, bollocks he is!

    And this is why there's an increasing (and self-inflicted) backlash against this nonsense and social media crusaders. It was one thing when it was confined to the likes of twitter and Facebook, but now it's seeping into everyday life and IS affecting those who don't buy into it.


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    #298
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Hunky Monster wrote: »
    I agree with most of what you've said but what you're reading online doesn't represent most of the trans community, trans people for the most part are just like you and me, sensible human beings, its the twitter brigade who scream the loudest who are giving the rest of them a bad name. The media then picks up on these absolute lunatics and gives them a megaphone to project their insanity, our leftist government and papers then entertain this nonsense when the man on the street knows how absolute bonkers it all is and everyone is left walking on eggshells for fear of being labelled transphobe for not thinking someone born a man can stick a dress on and is now 100% a woman, bollocks he is!

    Princess C, I'd just like to echo this sentiment. I said this earlier to one eyed Jack, that I don't believe "trans-activists" have trans people's needs in their mind. They are self absorbed narcissists. I understand your frustrations but there is a huge difference between trans activists and actuall trans people. Here's an example of what I mean. 1 is a trans person, the other a trans-activist. See for yourself who the sensible one is, and a better representation of the community.

    https://youtu.be/C1roM98Dass


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    #299
    MEGA BRO WOLF 5000
    Registered Users Posts: 17,438 ✭✭✭✭MEGA BRO WOLF 5000


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Princess C, I'd just like to echo this sentiment. I said this earlier to one eyed Jack, that I don't believe "trans-activists" have trans people's needs in their mind. They are self absorbed narcissists. I understand your frustrations but there is a huge difference between trans activists and actuall trans people. Here's an example of what I mean. 1 is a trans person, the other a trans-activist. See for yourself who the sensible one is, and a better representation of the community.

    https://youtu.be/C1roM98Dass

    Heh, I knew it was going to be that video. It's excellent.


    Embedded.



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    #300
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Hunky Monster wrote: »
    Heh, I knew it was going to be that video. It's excellent.


    Embedded.


    Cheers, on phone so couldn't. There are other examples too. Kaitlyn Jenner from what I've seen is a reasonable enough person, also a Republican. The Australian Cate Mcgregor too.


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    #301
    decky1
    Registered Users Posts: 975 ✭✭✭decky1


    Gynoid wrote: »
    The irony is that gender has come to mean some incontrovertible fact, such as a girl playing with trucks or a boy who wears dresses really IS the opposite gender, whereas biological sex is merely a state assigned at birth that is an uncertain reality. Gender identity which any arse knows is fluid in its expression is more real now. Thus give that child hormones to stop the menarche or spermarche and make them sterile and impotent. Savagery.

    just got a flyer from on of the big supermarkets with adverts for toys for Christmas, here's a little boy maybe 2 or 3 standing at an iron board , i know it's only fair if adults share the household chores but is this right? it just did'nt look right to me.:rolleyes:


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