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American Prices, they'd make you sick.

  • 25-10-2019 11:26pm
    #1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,430 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    I know we've discussed this to death over the years but i've gotten a few e-mails today and yesterday with specials from American sites/manufacturers.

    They'd make you sick, the prices, compared to what we pay here.

    Ashbury Precision Ordnance selling their chassis for $349 (€310)

    6034073

    Their rifle in 308 for $700 (€630) or in 6.5 Creedmoor for $750 (€675)

    6034073

    There is also ammo.

    Hornady 6.5cm SST for $24 (€21 there compared to €42+ here)
    9mm ammo for $170 (€153) per 1,000 compared to €280 here (cheapest i found)

    I could go on about scopes, and basically every other type of shooting item and i understand and realise the costs involved here (Ireland), the fact these are sale items, the nature of our sport industry here, and that the Irish market, even coupled with the English one, is not a patch on the American market, but jaysus it'd make you cry

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,430 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    A link doesn't explain much. Care to elaborate?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    Cass wrote: »
    A link doesn't explain much. Care to elaborate?

    On goods from outside the eu, you have to pay four duties, Customs duty, excise duty, anti dumping duty, countervailing duty and value added tax, thats on top of shipping costs and everyone who handles the goods along the way taking a cut.

    I bought tools from the USA, that were only a fraction of the cost of buying them here, Brands like Starrett, Brown and Sharp. But again i got them landed here it would have been cheaper to buy them here.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,430 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    On goods from outside the eu, you have to pay four duties, Customs duty, excise duty, anti dumping duty, countervailing duty and value added tax, thats on top of shipping costs and everyone who handles the goods along the way taking a cut. .
    I understand the costs involved:
    Cass wrote: »
    ......... and i understand and realise the costs involved here (Ireland),.........
    .... and i've spoken about the tax, duties, etc. before but still we pay more than we should.

    I've spoken, at length, before about the cost of taxes, duties, but i've also highlighted how even taking them into account we pay between 15 to 27% more than what it would cost to import stuff directly.

    Rifles, not on sale price, going for $200 - $250 (€180 to €225) in the states that with duties, taxes, VAT, shipping, etc. would stand you about €375 to €400 are being sold for €550+ here.

    Scopes are the same, and ammo is a joke.

    As i keep saying i understand that RFDs have to make a few bob and i don't begrudge it to them, but we are being rode some cases.

    Not to mention the "i want it" effect. Rifles mostly, but it applies to other items that start at one price and within a year have gone up by , in some cases, over 35% even though the price from the supplier/manufacturer hasn't changed.

    IOW demand has pushed the price up and people seem happy to pay it. When i say happy i mean they pay the asking price rather than import themselves or shop around. I've seen rifles starting at €1,450 and within 12 months they are €2,000 or more.

    Seeing as how the majority of the stuff we get is from the UK what will happen to the already high prices when Brexit does kick in? There was a thread on the Brexit topic a while back, but however long it takes it will be coming. Add VAT, duties, and other taxes to the current prices to get an idea of Brexit prices. So in theory we could be looking at an increase across the board of up to 25% on top of CURRENT prices.

    At this point personal imports are seeming more and more attractive.

    Not really into the Brexit debate but i hope RFDs are working or at least looking at other EU suppliers which could work to our benefit as the prices are Euro already and in Germany, Italy, Spain, etc. prices are lower than the UK and here.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,668 ✭✭✭✭ kowloon


    I had a purchase recently enough that was just under €3450, that charges worked out at just under €520. That's not just the gun but also the packaging materials and postage cost. The gun was at the antiques VAT rate, so a new gun would likely be more. Antiques also don't need an export licence or whatever it is that the Americans call it, which a new gun would require.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    Its also down to economies of scale and the whole rigmarole of getting a licence here. In America with a population of 300 million + , apart from a few pinko states like New York and California, you can stroll in and buy a long gun with your drivers licence, so turnover is huge, the shops can buy them cheap and sell them cheap.

    Talk to any dealer here and they will tell you there is very little to be made on selling guns, clothing and accessories is where the money is. Prices here should be in line with the prices on mainland europe, but they aren't, and i don't see brexit making that any better, probably worse.

    "Not really into the Brexit debate but i hope RFDs are working or at least looking at other EU suppliers which could work to our benefit as the prices are Euro already and in Germany, Italy, Spain, etc. prices are lower than the UK and here".

    I have known a few lads contacting suppliers in Germany and Italy about buying stuff, they were not remotely interested "Contact the agents for your area" was the usual reponse, usually those agents were the likes of gunmark or sportsmans in the Uk.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,430 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    Its also down to economies of scale and the whole rigmarole of getting a licence here.......... the shops can buy them cheap and sell them cheap.
    Yep, understood and agreed. 3+ months waiting, storage, overheads, staff, utilities, etc. All part and parcel of it. However this:
    Talk to any dealer here and they will tell you there is very little to be made on selling guns,.............
    I don't believe for a second. The prices are just too varying for this to be true.

    Over the years and even today i've seen different shops selling the exact same rifle, shotgun, scope, ammo, etc. but the prices can be as much as 30% different.

    Few examples:

    Remington 700 in 308 (CDL)
    1. Shop 1 - €950
    2. Shop 2 - €975
    3. Shop 3 - €1,125
    4. Shop 4 - €1,050

    Difference of €275 between cheapest and most expensive. Highest mark up of 27%.

    Ruger 10/22 (standard/entry model)
    • Shop 1 - €475
    • Shop 2 - €450
    • Shop 3 - €575
    • Shop 4 - €550

    Difference of €125 between cheapest and most expensive. Highest mark up of 26%

    Hawke Sidewinder 6-24
    • Shop 1 - €450
    • Shop 2 - €515
    • Shop 3 - €460
    • Shop 4 - €595

    Difference of €145 between cheapest and most expensive. Highest mark up of 32%.

    Hornady Superformance 308
    • Shop 1 - €49
    • Shop 2 - €50
    • Shop 3 - €54
    • Shop 4 - €52

    Difference of €5 between cheapest and most expensive. Highest mark up of 11%.


    I know the answer is to shop around, but i've seen one dealer that has a mark up of €2 per BOX of cartridges and gives no discount for bulk purchases (per slab). So over each slab he is making €20, on top of the money he would make selling it at the price everyone else is.

    I've seen the same with suppressors with one shop selling them for €360 and the most expensive selling the exact same one in the same caliber for €475.

    It brings me back to the question above. If the shops selling at the lower prices are making a profit selling at the price(s) they charge, what are the ones selling it for 10%, 20% and 30%+ making on it (other than the obvious) and why?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    The lad i knew as a dealer had retired early, had plenty of money of his own and was only running a shop as a hobby from home. He reckoned he was making feck all selling guns, its a nightmare according to him. One lad comes in buys a rifle, leaving a deposit on it and is not seen again for 18 months because the local super is acting the ball-of-wax issuing a cert. So the dealer had to pay for the rifle in full and then wait 18 months to make maybe 250 euros. I suppose too it depends on what you are selling, big difference between the margin on say a Blaser straight pull and a cz .22, or a Beretta shotgun and a Turkish bramble beater.

    Thats not to say there are gangsters out there selling stuff, i know of a couple of dealers out there who would have your trousers down as quick as look at you.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,430 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    One lad comes in buys a rifle, leaving a deposit on it and is not seen again for 18 months because the local super is acting the ball-of-wax issuing a cert. So the dealer had to pay for the rifle in full and then wait 18 months to make maybe 250 euros.

    Again i understand that aspect and it is annoying but its perhaps the exception and not the rule. Add to that, its one lad over his entire time waiting. An RFD can have dozens of lads waiting over a variety of time frames for their licenses. In other words how many firearm sales are there per week per RFD? How long are the different guys waiting on their license? Is it all new licenses or subs? What is the actual wait times per district? What districts are the guys buying coming from? There is simply too much data to say it's "X" reason for high prices. Considering the majority of RFDs are one man shows, or small set ups. Only a handful, and i'm talking low single digits, would have a staff of 3 or more and the higher overheads that come with such a shop.

    Also this is only the firearm part of the industry. Scopes, binoculars, ammo, other accessories, clothing, etc. require no license(s) and no waiting time.

    Look, i'm not making out, or at least i'm not trying to, the RFDs are out to gouge the community. I travel an hour and a half to my RFD because he has a great selection, is one of the cheapest around, will order in something regardless of what he has in stock, will take any trade in, and is eager to help his customers.

    It just seems some RFDs are in it for the "quick sale" and not interested in repeat business even though they are around years. I see lads that, from conversations, appear to be regulars, and i wonder how they continue to pay the prices in some shops when i know other RFDs are selling at between 15 to 30% less if they only traveled an hour in any direction.

    I realise talking about it here won't change or solve anything and i don't expect it to. I also know the soul crushing taxation and administration we live under in Ireland INCLUDING the RFDs, so i'm not laying all this or even the majority of it at their feet.

    I simply believe that based on actual, real world, prices i've seen across a variety of RFDs that we [the shooting community] are being ................ exploited? gouged? taken advantage off? ............ not sure of the right word(ing).

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,668 ✭✭✭✭ kowloon


    It doesn't seem like there are many people queuing up to become RFDs. The cost of entry is high and the risk of losing your business or parts of it without warning or compensation is high. Perhaps it's those barriers to entry that are the problem as opposed to money made by established RFDs.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,430 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    kowloon wrote: »
    It doesn't seem like there are many people queuing up to become RFDs.
    I wouldn't imagine so. Like any business it requires capital, investment, and in the case of firearm sales, a huge amount of administration.
    The cost of entry is high
    There are security requirements that will demand an initial outlay, but again like any other business the start up cost is no different. Whether that capital comes from owned money or loaned money is, to my point, irrelevant because whether it's a donut shop, chipper, fitted kitchens, or firearms the basic start up of any business is the same.
    and the risk of losing your business or parts of it without warning or compensation is high.
    In what sense. I understand what you mean, i think, but i'm unsure as to any actual examples of this happening. The C/F pistol ban in 2009 would the only thing i can think off, but there wasn't exactly a thriving market for C/F pistols to begin with.
    Perhaps it's those barriers to entry that are the problem as opposed to money made by established RFDs.
    There is no doubt that laws in the past ten years have tightened up how the industry runs/works, but costs haven't changed that much and to suggest that a lack of competition is the reason why some RFDs (and only a handful i know of) are using it as an excuse to charge higher prices only highlights my point about prices.

    I'm not an RFD, but have a limited understanding/knowledge of some of the costs and to me the RFD license fee is basically the same the last ten years, as is the restricted RFD license fee. Security may cost more due to the RFD SI, but how much more given the nature of their business and the security needed anyway? Other amenities and utilities are the same as every other business (staff, electricity, rent, etc). Increases in VAT, Duty, etc. on products are passed onto the customer, and only last year (found it, from 2017) there were articles and e-mails sent out (which i got) about how due to Brexit and the dropping value of the pound, UK based suppliers would be increasing the cost of products by between 10 to 15% at a minimum and that increase would be passed onto customers.

    Now most if not all dealers here buy from the UK including ammo. The UK buys from Europe, and possibly the states, so we're getting hit with multiple shipping costs, multiple handling costs, exchange rates, and now a "fee" for the drop in value of the pound. Funny thing is since 2017 the pound has stabilised somewhat and while not back to 2015/2016 levels it's not at the lows it was in 2017 we're still getting the "fee".

    If this is going to be not only an ongoing event but get worse when Brexit does finally happen (sometime in the late 24th century), and as i said above, we're going to get hit even harder if a supplier(s) is not found within the EU and cut out the UK.

    I asked before, what would it take for RFDs, seeing as how they have their own associations, to pool together and set up a supplier directly from the states.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    Cass wrote: »
    Again i understand that aspect and it is annoying but its perhaps the exception and not the rule. Add to that, its one lad over his entire time waiting. An RFD can have dozens of lads waiting over a variety of time frames for their licenses. In other words how many firearm sales are there per week per RFD? How long are the different guys waiting on their license? Is it all new licenses or subs? What is the actual wait times per district? What districts are the guys buying coming from? There is simply too much data to say it's "X" reason for high prices. Considering the majority of RFDs are one man shows, or small set ups. Only a handful, and i'm talking low single digits, would have a staff of 3 or more and the higher overheads that come with such a shop.

    Also this is only the firearm part of the industry. Scopes, binoculars, ammo, other accessories, clothing, etc. require no license(s) and no waiting time.

    Look, i'm not making out, or at least i'm not trying to, the RFDs are out to gouge the community. I travel an hour and a half to my RFD because he has a great selection, is one of the cheapest around, will order in something regardless of what he has in stock, will take any trade in, and is eager to help his customers.

    It just seems some RFDs are in it for the "quick sale" and not interested in repeat business even though they are around years. I see lads that, from conversations, appear to be regulars, and i wonder how they continue to pay the prices in some shops when i know other RFDs are selling at between 15 to 30% less if they only traveled an hour in any direction.

    I realise talking about it here won't change or solve anything and i don't expect it to. I also know the soul crushing taxation and administration we live under in Ireland INCLUDING the RFDs, so i'm not laying all this or even the majority of it at their feet.

    I simply believe that based on actual, real world, prices i've seen across a variety of RFDs that we [the shooting community] are being ................ exploited? gouged? taken advantage off? ............ not sure of the right word(ing).


    Its not just shooting stuff though. I remember when the euro came out and we had closer ties to the eu, we were told we would have much cheaper cars and jeeps, now that was a crock of poop if ever there was one. Looking longingly at adverts in foreign car magazines dreaming of getting cars for the prices advertised, it was all a pipedream.

    We pay far more for cars then other countries, and now that all the parties are going green, that is not going to change.

    Its just the nature of this country.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,430 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    Its not just shooting stuff though.
    True.
    We pay far more for cars then other countries,
    Because when the EU told Ireland you cannot keep, illegally, charging duty on car imports they changed it to VRT and problem solved (for them).

    I discussed this very issue not so long ago.
    and now that all the parties are going green, that is not going to change.
    That is going to be fun.

    Electricity suppliers saying they cannot keep up with demands as it is, and with plans to ban petrol and diesel cars in the next 10 or so years, we'll see.

    I listed the issues with electric cars here.
    Its just the nature of this country.
    Yeah, and like i'm doing right now, we bitch and moan but simply lay quietly while it happens.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,668 ✭✭✭✭ kowloon


    Cass wrote: »
    In what sense. I understand what you mean, i think, but i'm unsure as to any actual examples of this happening. The C/F pistol ban in 2009 would the only thing i can think off, but there wasn't exactly a thriving market for C/F pistols to begin with.

    That's an example, but they could change anything overnight and you wouldn't get anything in compensation because nobody feels sorry for a gun dealer ('cause y'know, evil and all). I believe the security requirements were changed not too long ago, and if I remember correctly, smaller dealers were saying it was a deliberate move against them.
    I wouldn't like to have a bunch of guns in stock when our superiors decide to ban a particular feature, calibre or whatever.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,430 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    That is what i thought you meant alright, but, and without being flippant, if they work on the basis of "it could be banned at any minute" then it's alarmist and frankly a piss poor excuse for overcharging (again in some cases, not all).

    This thread has seemingly turned into me attacking all RFDs. It's not the case. I keep saying it's not all them, and i know of only two RFDs that i would rank as being excessively overpriced compared to any other dealer i've dealt with.

    As for the other 95% of RFDs their prices, while in line with each other, is just so much more than what our American and even European counterparts pay that it makes you wonder.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭ oldgit1897


    Cass wrote: »
    That is going to be fun.

    Electricity suppliers saying they cannot keep up with demands as it is, and with plans to ban petrol and diesel cars in the next 10 or so years, we'll see.


    Yeah, and like i'm doing right now, we bitch and moan but simply lay quietly while it happens.

    The oil burner ban will be quietly forgotten like so many more high-falutin hot air promises we have had over the years. It was varadkar who said it and i don't see him being around much after the next election.

    As for quietly laying down, what else can you do ? I did get out and roar and wave a placard when the irish water quango was announced, that worked, but yeah, usually the irish are a rollover and accept it type of people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,259 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    The oil burner ban will be quietly forgotten like so many more high-falutin hot air promises we have had over the years. It was varadkar who said it and i don't see him being around much after the next election.

    As for quietly laying down, what else can you do ? I did get out and roar and wave a placard when the irish water quango was announced, that worked, but yeah, usually the irish are a rollover and accept it type of people.

    Pity we didn't finish it out with Irish water, it hasn't gone away you know. It should have been pushed to a complete dismantling. But yes you are right,we tend to take it too much as a race,bed over,spread em and forget about the KY lube..We like it rough it seems.Why are we not out every weekend,like the French Yellow Vests,50 weeks into protesting and brick throwing at the riot cops,long even after Macron's government had to pull the fuel tax?
    Are we that submissive as a race?Fighting Irish....Yeah,for everyone else,except for ourselves.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,668 ✭✭✭✭ kowloon


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Why are we not out every weekend,like the French Yellow Vests,50 weeks into protesting and brick throwing at the riot cops,long even after Macron's government had to pull the fuel tax?

    It's ball shrinkingly cold out, but I'll happily e-mail a brick to the relevant authority. Reminds me, need to get more oil for the heating.

    693092000005.jpg?size=xl


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,430 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    kowloon wrote: »
    It's ball shrinkingly cold out,......
    That s**t someone else said it. Thought i was getting soft in my old age, and that is was "just me" feeling it.. Heating has been on for the last couple of hours and i'm trying my best not to fall off the rad. :D

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