NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2019-20 Thread

Tommybojangles

Mick McGraw wrote: »

The Last Dance documentary has been very good.Jordan comes across as an extremely likeable figure in it.

I agree with the first sentence... I'm not sure about the second, I personally like him more since watching it, but 'likeable' isnt the word I'd use! Seems like a total dose to play with and be around, but that was part of his greatness. The scene where he starts crying when hes trying to explain why he was so hard on teammates was unreal 😮

rushfan

Mick McGraw wrote: »

The Last Dance documentary has been very good.Jordan comes across as an extremely likeable figure in it.

I'd say the whole docu series ( we're up to date ) is something you could write a thesis on. What stand out for me at times though is almost a comparison with Roy Keane, as in if MJ is in a good mood everyone else could be too. If not, then the whole crew was walking on eggshells as it were.

ButtersSuki

Tommybojangles wrote: »

I agree with the first sentence... I'm not sure about the second, I personally like him more since watching it, but 'likeable' isnt the word I'd use! Seems like a total dose to play with and be around, but that was part of his greatness. The scene where he starts crying when hes trying to explain why he was so hard on teammates was unreal ��

+1 on this. Jordan was an assh*le at times, and a legendary one at others. What's great about the documentary is it's warts and all and not a puff piece. Many of the usual podcasts go into this in a lot more detail. This is not new news btw, if you've read any of the main books on Jordan (Rare Air, Jrdan Rules etc.) or listened to any of the many podcasts on Jordan over the years this aspect of his personality comes out a lot.

It doesn't really touch on the womanising - for example when his wife had him followed whilst preparing for their divorce he was seeing 6 different women regularly and concurrently; but this is the NBA, it's almost expected - well it was at the time. I guess it's touched on in the "I didn't want to be a role model" conversation, but not in any great depth. And not much about his kids, althogh maybe that's a good thing.

rushfan

I read "The Jordan Rules" a couple of years ago, definitely not very flattering to the subject. That said, I'm thoroughly enjoying the series, even Mrs R who's no basketball fan, is too. It's also interesting to see how the lesser known players are faring too. I reckon everyone would walk past Horace Grant in the street without recognising him, Paxton too.

ButtersSuki

rushfan wrote: »

I read "The Jordan Rules" a couple of years ago, definitely not very flattering to the subject. That said, I'm thoroughly enjoying the series, even Mrs R who's no basketball fan, is too. It's also interesting to see how the lesser known players are faring too. I reckon everyone would walk past Horace Grant in the street without recognising him, Paxton too.

There's a funny video on YouTube of John Stockton walking around Barcelona during the 92 Olympics talking to US fans asking them about the Dream Team and who's on the team etc. No one recognises him.

To be fair to Grant and Paxson, they do look a lot different now - Grant minus the goggles and plus 100 pounds, Paxson with very different hair and a goatee.

I like some the musical choices they've made too as a big rap fan back in the day. The use of LL Cool J's "I'm Bad" over the 63 point game v the Celtics was inspired; then LL's nemesis in the rap game's Kool Moe Dee's LL diss track "How Ya Like Me Now?". There was some Eric B & Rakim too, as well as the Stereo MC's "Connected" - which considering they're British was a big surprise. Prince's "Partyman", a Beastie Boys Track, KRS 1, Special Ed, Naughty by Nature, Run DMC, Nas and even the instrumental to Biggie's "Hypnotise" made an appearance but all add to the nostalgia for someone who lived through theat period. Great stuff.

Oh and The Alan Parson's Project's "Sirius" which most people will know as the Bulls intro music.

Mick McGraw

Tommybojangles wrote: »

I agree with the first sentence... I'm not sure about the second, I personally like him more since watching it, but 'likeable' isnt the word I'd use! Seems like a total dose to play with and be around, but that was part of his greatness. The scene where he starts crying when hes trying to explain why he was so hard on teammates was unreal ��

His arrogance is quite endearing in a lot of ways, his complete and utter disgust at Clyde Drexler being compared to him was hilarious.

LuckyLloyd

I think the archive footage is phenomenal - both the 98 footage and the chosen flash backs. It’s extremely entertaining.

It is also a somewhat underhanded homage to Jordan’s ego. The deliberate omission of his production company and mention of his own final cut from the credits is cheeky, to say the least.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/may/09/the-last-dance-michael-jordan-netflix?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-1

Phil Jackson comes across phenomenally throughout. A tonic after the unfortunate nonsense that was his time with the Knicks.

cosatron

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think the archive footage is phenomenal - both the 98 footage and the chosen flash backs. It’s extremely entertaining.

It is also a somewhat underhanded homage to Jordan’s ego. The deliberate omission of his production company and mention of his own final cut from the credits is cheeky, to say the least.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/may/09/the-last-dance-michael-jordan-netflix?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-1

Phil Jackson comes across phenomenally throughout. A tonic after the unfortunate nonsense that was his time with the Knicks.

Phil Jackson and scottie pippen come across very well. Its a good watch. I like how physical the game was back then compared to now with guys flopping etc.

ButtersSuki

cosatron wrote: »

Phil Jackson and scottie pippen come across very well. Its a good watch. I like how physical the game was back then compared to now with guys flopping etc.

Jackson always comes across as calm, thoughtful, and collected. His books are an interesting read - not brilliant, but far from awful.

Yeah his time with the Knicks really damaged his legacy in the eyes of some. TBH, he had checked out, really didn't give a monkey's by all accounts. It's strange, it's not like he needed the money.

Osmosis Jones

Yeah it's a great doc but I'm not buying much into the whole MJ personality stuff. You can't call it a "no holds barred, under the skin" style documentary when the subject has a hand in the production process.

Mick McGraw

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Yeah it's a great doc but I'm not buying much into the whole MJ personality stuff. You can't call it a "no holds barred, under the skin" style documentary when the subject has a hand in the production process.

I'm not sure they were fully going for that, it strikes me as being mainly a piece of entertainment to remind people about how great Jordan and the bulls were particularly for people (like myself) who didn't get to see him when he was playing.

ButtersSuki

I'd read the Ken Burns criticism of it earlier in the week or maybe last week.

FWIW, if you haven't seen his (Burns') work, he has an amazing 10-part documentary on Netflix on the Vietnam War, and a great series on Baseball (not sure if that's on Netflix - i saw it at least 10-15years ago.

LuckyLloyd

Mick McGraw wrote: »

I'm not sure they were fully going for that, it strikes me as being mainly a piece of entertainment to remind people about how great Jordan and the bulls were particularly for people (like myself) who didn't get to see him when he was playing.

I think it is definitely presented as authoritative and objective. ESPN have their chops here given their OJ Doc a couple of years ago won an oscar, and the documentary has an edge of seriousness about it. It's a shame more than anything else that they don't just add MJ's production company in the credits and then there really would be no issue imo.

I'm glad the footage eventually saw the light of day and it's great entertainment for any basketball fan. Realistically once MJ had final cut there was no way he was going to sign up to a doc that didn't manipulate things to his advantage. It is what it is.

Carcharodon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think it is definitely presented as authoritative and objective. ESPN have their chops here given their OJ Doc a couple of years ago won an oscar, and the documentary has an edge of seriousness about it. It's a shame more than anything else that they don't just add MJ's production company in the credits and then there really would be no issue imo.

I'm glad the footage eventually saw the light of day and it's great entertainment for any basketball fan. Realistically once MJ had final cut there was no way he was going to sign up to a doc that didn't manipulate things to his advantage. It is what it is.

I agree but rather than manipulate, I feel like he really just wanted to get his point of view across clearly as a lot of things in the media have been manipulated against him throughout his career.
It really is much watch tv for any sports fan, not too many athletes with his ability and mentality out there.

LuckyLloyd

https://www.vulture.com/2020/05/the-last-dance-finale-michael-jordan.html

Perfect summary really - great footage but it's an insubstantial piece of work from a documentary perspective.

Coneygree

Bird calling Jordan a motherf*cker and Jordan calling Bird a b*tch while smiling and embracing each other is one of my favourite moments of the entire series.

eagle eye

It brought back a many great memories for me. I loved it and disagree that it's hollow.

Carcharodon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

https://www.vulture.com/2020/05/the-last-dance-finale-michael-jordan.html

Perfect summary really - great footage but it's an insubstantial piece of work from a documentary perspective.

Not a big fan of that type of writing, feels like the writer is desperately looking for an angle against the series and trying to get a dig in at Jordan.
Jordan is arguably one of the greatest athletes/sport stars ever, scrutiny is expected but it seems so desperate at times

StringerBell

I'm taking it for what it is, an amazing trip down nostalgia lane for me and a reminder of what greatness was and how utterly dominant that franchise was.

It would be better if it was without MJs influence in production obviously but it is what it is, I'm just happy it's been made, some great moments in it and footage that I'm delighted has seen the light of day.

Carcharodon

Also for me, although iam a big advocate for players deciding on where they get to apply their trade, it really does make you think how more loyal (Maybe a better word could be used) were back then, players like Stockton, Malone, Miller, Barkley spending majority of their careers at one franchise trying to beat the best in the league and not winning a ring.
It really is a different ere now with the player power, not too many rivalries left with the amount of trading of star players.

LuckyLloyd

Carcharodon wrote: »

Not a big fan of that type of writing, feels like the writer is desperately looking for an angle against the series and trying to get a dig in at Jordan.
Jordan is arguably one of the greatest athletes/sport stars ever, scrutiny is expected but it seems so desperate at times

That seems overly defensive to me.

This documentary has been sold as the best sporting documentary ever, put in the same bracket as the Oscar winning OJ Made in America. As a consequence it entered in the arena of serious criticism, i.e. how does it stack up as a complete piece of work. How has it been produced and what is it not telling us? If this was a fan video on YouTube transparently produced by MJ’s production company this type of analysis would be unwarranted, I agree.

And look, clearly the fans don’t care. It’s pure nostalgia that glosses over any difficult territory while highlighting the great aspects of MJ and the era. And the footage is great. So by all means people can choose to wallow in what they like about it. I like plenty of films that received negative reviews from critics and were a bit ridiculous, I’m sure most people do.

As for the scrutiny about Jordan himself? Well look, we’ve just been given 10 ~50 minute episodes where he gets the last word on *everything*. The last word on every player, every situation and on the franchise itself. When himself and his production company have presented the story in that manner it makes it valid to analyse the man himself as part of analysing the movie.

To be honest, that it’s getting a serious nose from critics from different angles is a signal of the documentaries success and reach! It’s been the television event of 2020 by a long way. Lots of my friends who have never really watched basketball have watched the whole thing. Overall, Jordan is winning massively from this, selling his legacy in his own words to a whole new audience.

eagle eye

It's clearly a biography with input from others. That's what it is and there's no apologies for it. Why do people need to look for ulterior motives or find flaws or say it doesn't cover his deep secrets?
The biggest laugh to me is people talking about the timing of it as an attempt to affect LBJ's legacy. That's insane. It's like everybody has to have an agenda nowadays because the idiots on social media say so.

Coneygree

eagle eye wrote: »

It's clearly a biography with input from others. That's what it is and there's no apologies for it. Why do people need to look for ulterior motives or find flaws or say it doesn't cover his deep secrets?
The biggest laugh to me is people talking about the timing of it as an attempt to affect LBJ's legacy. That's insane. It's like everybody has to have an agenda nowadays because the idiots on social media say so.

I think that stemmed from the rumour that Jordan agreed to the doc being made on the day LeBron and Cleveland celebrated their championship win. 2+2=5 if you ask me but social media loves a narrative.

Carcharodon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That seems overly defensive to me.

This documentary has been sold as the best sporting documentary ever, put in the same bracket as the Oscar winning OJ Made in America. As a consequence it entered in the arena of serious criticism, i.e. how does it stack up as a complete piece of work. How has it been produced and what is it not telling us? If this was a fan video on YouTube transparently produced by MJ’s production company this type of analysis would be unwarranted, I agree.

And look, clearly the fans don’t care. It’s pure nostalgia that glosses over any difficult territory while highlighting the great aspects of MJ and the era. And the footage is great. So by all means people can choose to wallow in what they like about it. I like plenty of films that received negative reviews from critics and were a bit ridiculous, I’m sure most people do.

As for the scrutiny about Jordan himself? Well look, we’ve just been given 10 ~50 minute episodes where he gets the last word on *everything*. The last word on every player, every situation and on the franchise itself. When himself and his production company have presented the story in that manner it makes it valid to analyse the man himself as part of analysing the movie.

To be honest, that it’s getting a serious nose from critics from different angles is a signal of the documentaries success and reach! It’s been the television event of 2020 by a long way. Lots of my friends who have never really watched basketball have watched the whole thing. Overall, Jordan is winning massively from this, selling his legacy in his own words to a whole new audience.

Good post and perspective, I would say though that Tiger King might give it a run for its money

eagle eye

Carcharodon wrote:

Good post and perspective, I would say though that Tiger King might give it a run for its money

Where's the perspective in that post?

Carcharodon

eagle eye wrote: »

Where's the perspective in that post?

I just like the points he made and his view of the series, articulated well.

Gregk961

Carcharodon wrote: »

I just like the points he made and his view of the series, articulated well.

It's hard to argue with a lot of the points he made in fairness.

From a strictly entertainment/nostalgia point of view I really did enjoy The Last Dance though. We are hardly spoiled for choice when it comes to basketball documentaries and it just came at the right time with all of us starving for some sport.

Going to sit back tonight and watch Hoop Dreams, as I tend to do every few months!

LuckyLloyd

Hoop Dreams never disappoints, a true work of art.

Carcharodon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hoop Dreams never disappoints, a true work of art.

Just watched it for the first time, brilliant. I’ve gone down a rabbit hole of looking into where they all are now, eye opening documentary.

Gregk961

Carcharodon wrote: »

Just watched it for the first time, brilliant. I’ve gone down a rabbit hole of looking into where they all are now, eye opening documentary.

When somebody asks me for a documentary recommendation it's always the first I give, regardless of a person's interest in sport. I first seen it when I moved to England over 20 years ago and I've watched it at least 40 times since!