Scottish independence

Sam Russell

It looks like, from the above posts, that everything about the UK favours England - everything.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119609774#Comment_119609774

So the pegging the currency to sterling will be easy, joining the EU will not be an issue and the border should be as seamless as possible.

How do you do all that when a requirement for EU membership is Euro membership and having a seamless border between EU countries and non EU countries is a very difficult endeavor as we have seen.

People who promote Scottish Independence are no different than Brexiteers when it comes to glossing over the hard realities of the split.

And I'm sure if independence does come to pass they will be screaming their own version of "project fear" when anyone questions their judgement and they will be happy to blame all problems on London, just like the Brexiteers blame problems on the EU.

rock22

@Fr Tod Umptious said "they will be happy to blame all problems on London, just like the Brexiteers blame problems on the EU."

Really, after all this time and all the discussion on this boards in multiple threads, you cannot distinguish Brexit from Scottish independence. Perhaps you need to read up on nationhood and democracy, Just think about people in a country making their own decisions and you might see the difference.

And no one, to my knowledge, is saying it is easy. But is has all been done, or do you not remember our own history? We linked to Sterling for years, we joined to EU ( EEC at time) and the Euro and we managed both hard and soft borders with the UK

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610791#Comment_119610791

What???? I specifically stated that their close links with the UK would be a barrier to the EU membership. My point was that EU countries have already said that their own independence issues would not be a blocker for Scotland joining the EU.

If you are going to follow on and insult me with a rant at least get what I have said right in the first place.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610857#Comment_119610857

I think you misunderstood my post.

Brexit and Scottish independence are different, though there are similarities in the sense that the separatists think something bigger is holding them back.

But what I am talking about is how the actions of the proponents of both will be the same.

The promotion of the positive and the unwillingness to elaborate on the potential negative.

The inevitable blame game when things are not going well for the pro independence side.

Don't try tell me that the pro independence movement are above all that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610636#Comment_119610636

it called geography, with a fair bit of history thrown in for good measure.

There's not much point having an RAF airbase in the north of Scotland, when the biggest threat came from the south or east.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119609502#Comment_119609502

1. 'Scotland' is not an independent country and currently cannot run a deficit. The deficit is a portion of UK deficit allocated to 'Scotland' by UK govt. An independent Scotland will run a deficit which is like the vast majority of countries
2. The SNP wants an independent Scotland so does want to consider financing
3. 'Scotland' can use the pound if it so wishes
4. Why do you think Scotland and rUK would not keep the CTA?
5. An independent Scotland would be wise to diversify its trade over time
6. EU membership is for the people in Scotland after independence
7. NATO membership is for the people in Scotland after independence. An independent Scotland could rent out the Faslane and Coulport facilities until such time rUK has secured their own with rUK
8. Many people have hard choices to make when Scotland is in the UK or outwith
9. The NHS funding is being constrained and cut within the UK currently
10. Do you think the inverse is also true?
11. Do you think the UK govt is going to remove UK citizenship from people who do not want it removed?

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610981#Comment_119610981

You are projecting the actions of the leave campaign in Brexit with the future actions of the proponents of Scottish independence without acknowledging that what is at stake is totally different and that there is no reason why anyone , arguing for independence, would try to mimic the Brexiteer voices of 2016.

At the end of the day it is about nationhood and whether the peoples of Scotland should make their own decisions or allow those decisions continue to be make in Westminster. Everything else is either FUD, or waffle.

But if that decision is made then the peoples of Scotland can set out how best to achieve that independence. No doubt by negotiations with the UK and maybe, if they so decide, with EU.

There is no comparison with a desire for democracy and the xenophobic driven Brexit, as any examination would make plain. Continuing to bring up Brexit in this context is simply attempting to sow confusion and fear.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610791#Comment_119610791

Joining the euro has been a requirement of EU membership since 1995, but Sweden has managed to fudge the issue; as have a handful of the 2004 accession countries (Poland, Czechia, Hungary). None are even close to bringing it in; Croatia are the only country in process.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610008#Comment_119610008

I live here and have done so for quite a bit of time. I do not think 'SNP rule' (you ignore the fact that the Scottish govt is a coalition) is worse. The SNP have many faults and I do not think Sturgeon has the heart for the independence fight. She has turned the SNP into devolutionists, from what I can see

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119610986#Comment_119610986

Geography does not give rise to 'The Bank of England' or 'The Church of England'. These are English establishments.

Scotland has different laws from England, as evidence by the rituals being run out over the last few days. King Charles has Scottish titles that pass directly to his son, but Prince of Wales does not, and had to be expressly granted. King Charles automatically becomes head of the CoE and automatically defends it. In Scotland he had to give an express declaration for the Church of Scotland as, unlike the CoE, is not the established church.

The absence of the RAF and navy from Scotland has more to do with penny pinching.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611447#Comment_119611447

there are only three navy bases, two in southern England and one in Scotland.

RAF bases are pretty much all a legacy of WWII where geography was the number one driver.

im not sure the relevance of the rest of your post. It’s a bit bizarre

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611135#Comment_119611135

I don't think you're correct on your statements at all.

And as said before, no, Scotland, can't use the pound. And things don't get more correct, if you keep repeating them.

Also why should Scotland continue to use the pound, if they want to leave? ( that's the part which sounds very very much like a Brexiteer )

I also don't think that there is ever a majority of Scots who would want the Euro, - it's a mismanaged currency which constantly devalues, it's worse than the pound.

Sturgeon doesn't get more credible if she keeps reiterating that the pound can still be used in an Independent Scotland.

I would also find it very very hard to believe that the rest of the UK would tolerate the Scotts leaving, but at the same time still retaining citizenship or wanting to retain Briitsh citizenship, with all it's advantages. This would include voting in every federal election in the rest of the UK by absentee ballot for at least another 15 years, this could change every outcome of every election. Same goes for free NHS treatment across the border in England. Sorry, but whatever you say, I simply won't believe that Westminster would ever tolerate that and Sturgeon will certainly not have a clear answer to that as well.

The debate on the English/Scottish border will be very much one of the border on Northern Ireland to the Republic now. Westminster could easily impose taxes and customs duties, use it as a possible trade war, if Scotland doesn't play along as they want, like continue using the pound, etc.... There is not much Bruxelles could ever do, regarding the English Scottish border.

Scottish independence is already an argument, before it even happens. That one is certainly for sure.

pixelburp

As has been said already, the Bank of Scotland can use any currency they wish, and name it whatever, while pegging it to Sterling. The Bank of England have no say in this matter, so I'm not sure why the insistence otherwise. Would appreciate a link that somehow confirms Scotland can't use "pounds", and simply match it to Sterling.

We ourselves are the obvious precedent and Case Study on a slow decoupling from the Union while asserting legislative independence.

Strazdas

Scottish unionists have been continuously pushing the 'Scotland is not a real country' line, just a mere British region, but I notice King Charles has referred to Scotland as a 'country' and a 'nation' on quite a few occasions.

tinytobe

There is an article on citizenship:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/independence-would-spark-a-citizenship-crisis-in-scotland-and-the-uk

The subject would even go further, like Scots living in England, their spouses and children, etc...

As a comparison, when Czechoslovakia spilt up, similar issue, Czechs could not have Slovak citizenship and vice versa. Former Yugoslavia is a similar thing. Croats certainly don't want the Serbs voting in their federal election......

tinytobe

Or here about financial matters: ( of course that's a Tory paper, so the SNP voters automatically discredit it)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scottish-independence-going-it-alone-will-come-with-180bn-debt-p9j2c03zt

"An independent Scotland could start off saddled with £180 billion of debt and be forced to borrow £20 billion annually to plug a financial black hole, according to a former economic adviser to the Scottish government.

Professor John Kay, who served on the Scottish council of economic advisers, warned of the challenges that lie ahead as ministers prepare to publish new papers arguing that Scots would be better off outside the UK"

Annascaul

Scottish independence is just too risky I think. There are more questions and the answers are given by populist politicians. Criticism is always answered by the don't see things too negative kind of talk.

The currency matter is sure a serious one. Parting ways normally means parting ways, severing ties. Suppose an independent Scotland could theoretically use the British pound, then the Bank of England would set the interest rates, - as it deems it for the rest of the UK. Suppose they raise them to say, 5 or 6% to their needs, but Scotland would need 2% to stimulate lending for their economy. It'll be a constant issue.

All possible thoughts, which neither Sturgeon or any politician can answer with certainty.

And then there are fiscal policies of the country, funding if universities and the NHS in Scotland, - I wouldn't trust the SNP on this at all, given their performance.

Citizenship would also be a grave concern. I suppose it will work on some kind of "habitual residency" thing, - another bureaucracy. How long do you live here or there, or where were you born? Children of those and those criteria are eligible, cut off dates for this and that, depending on birth dates, etc...

All unpleasant matters.

ancapailldorcha

Ultimately, whether or not independence is a good idea should be decided by the Scots themselves. As someone who was raised a Unionist, I can sympathise with either side of the debate but what's disgusting is the derision from Westminster towards arguably the most capable politician in the country at the moment.

Let Scotland decide and have done with it.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119612137#Comment_119612137

Citizenship and money can be answered and have been already on this thread by looking at Ireland.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613041#Comment_119613041

One can answer anything it only depends how and not everybody likes the answers.

The questions are never dangerous, but the answers are.

I would suspect that they would do some kind of "habitual residency test" on how they would award Scottish citizenship.

That would mean, that even somebody who feels English but lived in Scotland for professional reasons for say, 15 years or more, would get Scottish citizenship. Place of birth would be another criteria.

Or if you have clearly Scottish ancestry, but are living in England or Wales for several generation.

And then there is the problem of the referendum results. Say 52% vote in favour of independence, this would mean roughly 2,5 Million people in Scotland would b become Scottish citizens and quite possibly lose British citizenship against their will. Personally I would never agree to that. A slim majority deciding over my identity, an identity I clearly do not want to have.

This scenario is not impossible. I only think back, when Newfoundland joined Canada, everybody became Canadian, and British ancestry was later on not recognized.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119611193#Comment_119611193

If Sturgeon doesn't have the heart for the independence fight, who does?

How close to giving up on indyfref2 is she?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613399#Comment_119613399

I would suggest the independence fight is driven by hardliners inside the SNP.

It'll be similar as the Brexit was driven by hardliners in the Conservatives. Cameron didn't want it either, I'd suggest.

Sam Russell

@tinytobe You talk of federal elections - What are they? Are you aware of British or Irish nomenclature? Are you sure you even know where Scotland is?

People born in Ireland prior to 1948 were entitled to British citizenship. People born in NI have always been entitled to British citizenship - if they wanted it.

People of Irish nationality are not aliens in Britain, according to the 1948 British Nationality Act. That means they are on a par with British citizens, but they cannot vote for the head of state - but neither can British citizens as we see from recent events but we will leave that there. Otherwise they can vote as any British citizen can, including parliamentary ones.

The Irish citizens are entitled to access to the NHS on a par with British citizens - unless that has changed recently.

If Scotland pegged the Scottish Haggis (Scotland's new currency) to the GBP, then obviously they suffer whatever interest set by the Bank of England. If they do not like it, they float. If they wanted, they could peg it to the US$, or the Euro, or the SA Rand. I am sure they could pick the best solution that favours their economy.

Scottish nationality would be determined by the Scottish Constitution - should they institute one, or by whatever the Scottish Parliament should decide. British nationality is up to the various British Nationality Acts that have been passed over the last 100 or so years. Currently anyone born on NI can be British, Irish, or both. [Of course, the British Home Office have yet to reflect that in British Nationality law, but there you go, never trust them].

The passing of the Scottish Independents Referendum (should one be allowed to be held) would result in negotiation for divvying out the various financial mess England has found itself to be in. Scotland is quite separate from England as it stands - health, police, railways, general Gov services, etc.

As for the border between Scotland and England, Hadrian did a good job of delineating it quite a few years ago. There are very few crossing due to geography - a few railway lines, a few motorways, and a few other roads. It is quite remarkable how separate the two countries are. The NI border, on the other hand, has crossings every km or so. The Scottish border is also a lot shorter than the NI border.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613342#Comment_119613342

Well 5.5 million Scottish people lost EU citizenship on a margin as tight.

Scotland could just stay in the CTA like Ireland and those people could keep being British and live there just like I did with my Irish passport in the UK.

Again all this has been done on this thread already.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613522#Comment_119613522

The Scottish border is a natural choke point which is probably why it became the natural border when both countries were separate.

NI was never a national border and wouldn't have been on if both countries were separate and evolved naturally over 100s of years.

Sam Russell

The Scottish border, as the crow flies is less than 130 km, and according to my perusal of Google maps has about 24 road crossings, and I think two railway lines.

One of the cleanest borders you could hope to police.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613522#Comment_119613522

Your language is as welcoming and educational, as if I was to lecture an Irishman on the advantages of the plantation and what Oliver Cromwell did for the greater good of Ireland.

And as you said, "born in Ireland prior to", this would be what I've meant by cut off dates.

Anybody born after, it's their bad luck.

And who wants citizenship of a country where international contracts and agreements aren't forged yet?

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613621#Comment_119613621

In 1948, Ireland became a republic. Those born after that date were Irish citizens. But even as Irish citizens, they were given the equivalent of British citizens in Britain.

You do understand what the means. They were not British citizens in Canada, or Australia, or anywhere else in the British Empire, later to become the British Commonwealth, but were treated for all issues as if they were British citizens in Britain. Incidentally, British citizens enjoy significant benefits in Ireland not available to other nationalities. [Some not even available to Irish citizens].

I would expect that the same would apply to those born in Scotland after Scotland became independent of England.

astrofool

Interestingly, it would be a lot easier for Scotland to separate from the UK (print their own money, have their own resources, have a functioning government, border defined properly) than it would be for Northern Ireland.