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Scottish independence

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,351 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    It was not just Scotland who fought with England in the 2 world wars. Between August 1914 and November 1918 considerably over 200,000 Irish served in armed forces engaged in the First World War.  Much fewer than that fought in the GPO. In the second world war over 80,000 Irish-born men and women joined the British armed forces, with many tens of thousands more going to help in hospitals, factories etc. There are millions of people with Irish ancestry in Britain, the vast majority will tell you they were always treated fairly otherwise they would not have joined they armed services / chosen to live in Britain / still be there. People have been going over and back for centuries.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,781 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    I just never hear English people criticising Irish domestic issues. I think Irish people would have a fit about it. Sure we get offended when they can't pronounce our Irish names.

    I just can't see how the almost daily commentary on England is anything other than veiled anti English sentiment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,111 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    So if I comment negatively on something that happens in another country I hate/am anti the people of that country? I hate an awful lot of the people of this world so.

    Irish people in their droves express pro English sentiment too, by consuming their cultural output, as they do ours, by having interests in things specifically English, like their monarchy and football teams etc and by going there in huge numbers all the time.

    You are creating unbalanced myths tbh



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,781 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Talking negatively about England daily is specific to some Irish people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,111 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Only if you have your ears cocked for that. Outright hate of the English people is a minor minor sport even from where I am from.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,387 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I really dislike when posters come into threads trying to shut down discussions based on accusations of racism, tribalism or nationalism. The idea of a new country being created right next door is of course of interest to us. An independent Scotland could easily compete against the ROI with a low tax strategy for example. I doubt an independent Scotland will ever happen but the thread shouldn't be diverted into becoming an English victim mentality thread .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,630 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    How are the public not interested when they returned a pro-independence majority of representatives to Holyrood who had stood on a mandate of pushing for another referendum, while at the same time Labour and the Tories stood on opposing a referendum and were soundly beaten?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,785 ✭✭✭eire4


    Yes no doubt about it the Welsh have got the short end of the stick to say the least from the English.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,785 ✭✭✭eire4




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,785 ✭✭✭eire4


    No question they have a ways to go for Welsh independence to be a real possibility any time soon. But there is no doubt also that an independence movement in Wales has been energized by the fallout from Brexit and the reality of Irish reunification and Scottish independence being very much real possibilities. When the Scottish do regain their independence it will be very interesting to see how the Welsh react in the subsequent years.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The problem Wales have with independence is the same as NI would have - the border. There is no border that is clearly defined such that a customs frontier could be established with any credibility, just as the one between NI and Ireland.

    Scotland has a very clear border with few crossings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,501 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    What I have always noticed about this thread is that it's as if Irish people with a nationalist outlook are trying to "stick it to the Brits" with their enthusiasm for Scottish independence.

    They seem to think that the Scots should have the same attitude to the English as we Irish had when we got independence.

    But it's not like that at all.

    As you point out, Ireland's independence was only 65 years after the famine, the Irish were always regarded as inferior by the rest of the UK, and there was a very obvious religious difference at a time when religion was a much bigger deal than it is today.

    And even given all of the above it still took an armed rebellion and the fallout from it to turn the public towards support for independence.

    Prior to 1916 Irish people were pretty benign about being in the empire.

    You have none of this with Scotland.

    The last religious wars they fought were back in the 1600s and that was because the Scots didn't think the English were protestant enough.

    The last uprising came in 1746.

    Independence movements usually need a hook, something to show how different they are, it's usually religion or a language or some local trait that distinguishes them from the country or union they are trying to leave.

    It's really hard to find that in the Scottish independence movement.

    Religion is not a big deal, even though they have their own language it's not the main spoken or written language of the people.

    So what is Scotlands hook ?

    I don't think they have one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,630 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    The 'hook' is that the Scots are predominantly left of centre in their politics, whereas the English are predominatly right of centre, and thus the Scots have had to put up with Westminster governments that do not represent their outlook. Corbyn's Labour was the closest thing to a vision of politics that the Scots would endorse, and yet he was completely anathema to the English general public.

    Add into the equation Brexit, which was opposed by the Scots even more than it was in NI - and factor in that the Scots didn't get any of the perks that NI did such as the protocol, Erasmus continuing etc. - and it's yet another example of a largely English demand taking precedence over what the Scots want.

    Independence doesn't have to be about shaking off oppression or persecution as in the Irish case historically. In the case of Scotland, it's about charting a path in politics that doesn't involve having to be subservient to a country with very different politics. If you're a left-leaning Scot with aspirations to be a part of the EU, what is your pathway to do that without independence? Would love to hear it. 'Sit tight and wait for England to get over its post-imperial angst' isn't good enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Yes, some good points and it should be noted too that Scotland has a substantial Protestant population and people who were traditionally pro-union and pro-monarchy.

    The one thing though that makes independence much more likely is the rise of 'English nationalism'. Many of the English Brexity types don't even seem to like the UK, don't identify with being 'British' and give the impression that they would be more happy to see Scotland and NI leave.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,781 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Corbyn's Labour did terrible in Scotland in the 2019 election.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,785 ✭✭✭eire4


    A very valid point on the border between Wales and England no question about it. A lot of work to do though I think by the independence movement within Wales before that even comes close to being a real live issue the border that is and what it would be. But nonetheless it is interesting to watch the first significant flowers of a Welsh independence movement developing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,785 ✭✭✭eire4


    We have conversed so to speech before on other threads and tend to agree for the most part but I will have to say I cannot agree with the thrust of what you posit here. Firstly as an Irishman with some Scottish relatives who enjoys visiting them in Scotland there is no sticking it to the English mentality on my side or anybody else in my family in Ireland. While for our Scottish relatives it is about the kind of society and outlook on life and how they want their countries direction to be that is their hook. Their outlook on life and the kind of society they want to live in is diametrically opposite to the one put forward by the tories. They feel that Scotland has no voice in the UK and never will because the English majority will always control any outcome. So no matter how they vote or how completely they vote opposite to England they end up stuck with a government and polices that are in direct opposition to their wishes. Be it being a member of the EU or a society that has a greater emphasises on the We as opposed to the English emphasises more on the I they see no future as part of the UK in terms of being able to live in and build the kind of Scotland they wish to live in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,630 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    That was very much about Brexit. Labour's vote has predominantly collapsed in Scotland under criticism of them being Tory-lite. Someone of the Corbyn wing of the party - who would support rejoining the EU, unlike Corbyn - would be the best way to combat the Labour slide. It doesn't look possible in the short-term. Starmer is opposed to Corbyn-style politics and is terrified of upsetting the working class English who voted for Brexit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,630 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    Ash Regan, who has thrown her hat into the ring for SNP leader, has set out her belief in how independence should be pursued:




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,501 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Decent enough piece here from the BBC about Scottish independence.

    The conclusion: The SNP will have to play the long game and hope that the current cohort of young voters that currently show the greatest support for independence remain supporting it while the middle aged and older opponents literally die out.

    Then if support is consistently in the 60% range for a long period Westminster can't deny a referendum.

    And probably by that time it will be another generation on from 2014 anyway.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,630 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    It's a good piece, although the 60% figure is silly. If polls for example showed consistent support for Yes at 55%, does anyone think it would be remotely tenable for the UK to ignore that when the 2014 referendum allowed for the continuance of the UK at the same figure? Not to mention the fact that the UK has signed up to the GFA which allows for NI to leave the UK on a 50+1% vote, and the SoS is obliged to call one if he/she thinks the majority desire unity.

    Problem for the Scots is they don't seem to have the stomach to take a tougher line if the UK continues to say no to their democratic mandates. Violence should be avoided, yet things like civil disobedience, mass strikes etc., don't appear to be contemplated by the SNP. I listened to Ash Regan being interviewed about her de facto referendum idea. She had no answer when asked what she'd do if the UK said no to a mandate for independence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,480 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    It is clear over the last few years that the SNP are more interested in devolution than independence. It would appear that parliamentary mandate means little in the current climate in the UK



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    That sounds like an acceptance of the obvious democratic deficit that comes from FPTP and the lying toads that have managed to get to be PM and wreck the place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,501 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    It's moving away from ideas like mass strikes, civil disobedience etc that the SNP will be doing.

    As the article alludes to they will sit and wait until the current older generation that see themselves as British are eventually replaced by the current and a new generation that have a greater sense of Scottish identity.

    Sturgeon tried to use the differences between her party and the Tories as a vehicle to increase support for independence, trying to protray everything the Tories did as bad and everything the SNP did as good, but that backfired spectacularly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,630 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    I wouldn't say it backfired spectacularly for Sturgeon when she won every election convincingly, so much so that unionists were doing cartwheels when her departure was announced. 45% support in 2014 to circa 50% now isn't bad going imo. I do think making the gender bill a priority certainly backfired. I suspect in time people will wonder what the fuss was about but evidently she moved further than the public were ready for.

    Sturgeon got a lot of stick from impatient SNP supporters that she wasn't going far enough. It sounds like Yousaf if he takes over will annoy those people even more since he doesn't seem in a hurry to push anything.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    SNP would be silly to get offside, like the Catalans. Get a max devo of some sort from Starmer and work with that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,480 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    The devolutionists want to talk and talk and talk about independence. It is actually amazing how it has moved from 'there will be an independence referendum in 2017/18/19/20/21/22/23' to 'keep electing us and maybe we will move on independence in 30 years!'



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I also suspect the big problem was the Yes vote stalled at the mid 50s, when perhaps the expectation was it'd hit the low 60s just around the time Sturgeon was eyeing up another go at the referendum. Or maybe I'm projecting my own supposition: this idea that the Yes vote was only going in one direction and there wasn't some weird ceiling on support once it hit the 50-50 split. Though I always thought for independence to work it had to have a buy-in by at least 2/3s of its population.

    The Gender Bill probably fed enough Bad Faith merchants to truly put her in the ha'penny place, but I suspect the wheels were already wobbling a little on the Sturgeon train when she kept talking up Ref #2 - despite support for Independence failing to become louder. Forcing Westminister to play its hand wasn't a bad strategy by all accounts, not if the purpose was to rile up Scots over London interference - but she picked the wrong legislation to pin those hopes.

    The new leader may decide the best policy is to work on getting the Yes vote into the 2/3s before shouting for another referendum. Go back to basics, get the Scottish economy and society humming through its own graft, let Scots see the value of that, over London, before talking up another ref.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭rock22


    I think you sum it up very well, Pixelburp

    I too expected support to keep growing into the 60s and beyond. As a matter of fact, given the absolute chaos , dishonesty and incompetence in Westminster in the past few years, and the reality of being denied membership of the EU from Brexit, I am astonished that there ia anyone in Scotalnd that prefers Westminster to make their decision for them rather than make those decision themselves in Scotland.

    Given that support stalled I think the only realisitic way forward is to slowly build support again. WWe will have to wait to see if that can ever be done .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,501 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    The SNP seem to be is a sort of bother.

    Arguments over what the membership numbers were.

    Membership down 32,000 in two years.

    The chief executive resigning, his replacement saying that the party is in a tremendous mess.

    Even though it's not at the same level of disarray as the Tories, it hardly bodes well for the SNP if they want to convince people that they are competent enough to run an independent country.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,630 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    It's been a messy couple of weeks for the SNP but is that going to translate into a swing for the Tories or Labour? I'd be surprised.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,480 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    The SNP leadership have been guilty of gerrymandering and corruption for a while now



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,480 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Kevin McKenna in the (Glasgow) Herald does not mince his words for the SNP leadership

    https://archive.ph/ClX49



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Beth Rigby interview with Nicola Sturgeon on Sky 9pm tonight.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,781 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    3 duds running for the SNP leadership.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭rock22


    Just read this .

    If true, it is a fairly damning assessment of the Sturgeon / Murrell hold on the party. The reality would seem to be very much at odds with the public persona of Sturgeon as the capable leader.

    Either way it does seem the SNP 'brand' is damaged in the short to medium term. And with it the pathway to independence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    It is wrong that the CEO and the leader had a personal relationship. Murrell should have stepped down when Sturgeon became party leader.

    Slagging the 3 running for the leadership, without giving reasons. Well we know what that's called.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,723 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    There is no wonder the SNP brand is damaged. Also the pathway to independence was a cull de sack from day one. Voters just didn't want to see that as the playbook was always the depressed minority within the UK and the evil of Westminster. ( Westminster, the ones who paid for everything the SNP promised.....)

    There are far to many domestic problems in Scotland, starting from the Scottish NHS, to education issues. Also Scotland is sadly leading the number of drug deaths in Europe. Sturgeon also had no real succession planning upon her departure, no leader in waiting nothing of that sort. She also failed twice on the referendum issue, lost the first referendum, and the second one was overruled by the supreme court. Also when Sturgeon announced that she was stepping down, there was some kind of police enquiry into SNP finances.

    Also the SNP is having a massive loss of party members recently. Sturgeon has been taking the Scottish votes for a ride for many many years, and I believe she left, before anybody is really smart enough to pin all these failures on her.

    Maybe some Irish take fun into the idea of Scottish independence, but from a reasoning point of view, it's way better it never ever happens.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,630 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    Sturgeon won every election as leader convincingly and leaves office as the most popular leader in Scotland.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Sturgeon's reputation seems to be broken, not the SNPs own; or at least, we can't see either for sure until the next set of polls come out, or indeed election. It survived the last big personality departure in leadership with Alex Salmond; I'd not write its obituary just yet with Sturgeon leaving.

    The first referendum might have been lost but it wasn't manifested by a reduction in pro independence representation in Holyrood; in fact taking the Greens into account there remains an overall majority support in of SMPs. And whether the public appetite exists or not, it seems happy to vote for SNP over the Scottish variants of the main 3 English parties. Alba didn't appear to cause much of a rift, with no sign of bleed elsewhere AFAIK.

    No independence movement comes ready baked, the country perfect and primed for going it alone. It has always been an issue driven by emotion, not pragmatism. Name me a country whose independent movement was driven by stats or charts; it's always about something deeper.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭rock22


    Remaining as part of the UK is a vul de sac, if ever there was one.

    And the only way for Scotland to deal with those problems you list, and they exist, such as health and education, is to end Westminster interference and get fill control of the Scottish budget. Those problems are an argument for independence not against it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,501 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    So even though education and health have been devolved since 1999 the excuse for them being in poor shape under the SNP for the last so many yeay is that Westminster aren't giving Scotland enough money to run them correctly?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    The analogy doesn't quite track but should Ireland's autonomy by stripped for each successive, failed government, given over to Brussels because it failed some nebulous sense of competence? Or ditto US states whose budgets or institutions lag behind some arbitrary sense of federal autonomy, the blame sitting with the resting party?

    The case for independence will invariably be linked to the party most vocal for it, and the state of things while being run by that party - but again, independence won't be won or lost exclusively by the state of the economy, or some sense of needing to be This High for independence to be valid. it certainly wasn't our barometer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,111 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Who is the smart money on here?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,501 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Yousaf it seems.

    Clear favorite with the bookies.

    Not surprising seening as Forbes is socially conservative in a party that has been very socially liberal over the last few years, and Yousaf is socially liberal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    A party built on the flag of independence will by its nature, be a broad church. You have both christian and social democrats in the one party. It is in effect a coalition. Hard to keep that as one over a longer period of time.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,341 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Great, if Forbes loses I'm sure she will blame it because of discrimination of her beliefs etc. rather than her putting her foot in her mouth on multiple topics as a politican...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭rock22


    The Scottish government can only allocate expenditure from what resources it receives, mainly in the block grant. And that is set in Westminster .It cannot decide to tax the City financial institutions in order to spend more on health and education.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,671 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    You'd have to expect Yousaf to win, the continuity Sturgeon candidate.


    The SNP is becoming more of a niche party day by day.


    Hopefully he won't finish off the chance of Scottish independence.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭rock22


    Yousaf won but not by an overwhelming number.

    Final tally was Yousaf 26,032 and Forbes 23,890 after distributing Regan's vote.

    So endorsement for continuity, but not by much



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