Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

No harm in giving Burns a go - if he actually gets any meaningful game time remains to be seen.

is POM in because AF doesn't trust the lineout function?

Stockdale has to show solidity or surely it's game over at 15 for him?

as said these games mean nothing with the world cup pool seedings already set so really need to use the opportunity to give new guys some experience, especially at 9 and 10.

lawrencesummers

bilston wrote: »

The reaction to Burns's selection is probably more reflective of the southern media's complete lack of interest in Ulster rugby.

If you're really honest a lot of you probably haven't seen him play consistently enough to form an opinion. If you had youd have known his game has moved to another level in the last 12 months.

I can agree he has moved to another level in the last while, I just don’t think that level is good enough for Heineken cup and certainly not for international.

He might look good against a pants welsh team, but he’s not going to take the jersey from sexton anytime soon, and that’s what is needed.

As regards POM being included, our lineout was a shambles against France. POM is our best lineout jumper.

Dubinusa

Not a bad selection imo. Delighted to see someone other than Murray get a start. Henderson back will boost the tight 5 imo. AF has done quite well so far. A lot of new faces and somewhat different attacking approach.
Our defense has been shambolic. Awful! The team need to improve in this area. I hope they're all on the same page and can make the required adjustments.
I think we are in a bit of a mess at lh. Healy I believe is not a starter no more and Byrne is not the answer. Kilcoyne is also older....
I think VDF will put in a huge effort and stake his claim. Doris is playing his natural position and hopefully puts in a good shift.
Burns is worth a look. There's not much between himself RB and Carty. Carberry is still the frontrunner if he's healthy, but I don't think he's the answer either.
Stockdale needs a big step up. Larmour is still the frontrunner imo.
POM will be jettisoned over the next year. There's so many lads capable of usurping him. It's a matter of time. I think we might see Beirne at 6 this series and Doris is also in the running. My bolter for 6 is Josh Murphy. He's been superb.
It's good to see Kelleher back. But I would have had him on the bench. He's played very little thus far and may struggle.
I think Farrell is going quite well as far as blooding new players. With injuries and retirements, we are seeing a lot of turnover. This side is unrecognizable as compared to the stalwarts of 3 seasons ago. Huge influx of new blood.
Blooding new lads is just as important as winning imo. This is basically a test run for the new lads. This tournament should be used to gain experience for the new players.

molloyjh

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I completely agree.

I'd not be confident that he's good enough to to start and pull the strings to win against anyone better than Italy. I'd say he's certainly not at the moment.

But I think he has earned a crack at it. He's 26, has put in some very good performances in his last year and a half at Ulster, and has played in tough, make-or-break games.

This categorically is not aimed at you at all, Molloy, but there's a definite undertow in the conversation around the Ireland team that opportunities belong to the right type - young Leinster lads, 20, 21, 22. There's been calls for Dan Sheehan to play in this tournament, and Harry Byrne.

Felipe Contepomi recently declared himself delighted that Byrne had worked on his fitness to a point where he was able to go 80 minutes at Pro14 level.
( https://www.the42.ie/harry-byrne-leinster-out-half-5255359-Nov2020/ ) You'll have to excuse me if I wonder if he's really earned a call-up to the international side. If he can really do a job.

We all suffer from our provincial biases, I certainly won't claim that I don't have them. But there's a weight of posters on here uninterested in having to - or unable to - assess soberly any player they haven't been following since Irish schools at St Michaels.

I take it on a case-by-case basis. Do I want to see Kieran Treadwell or Alan O'Connor line out for Ireland instead of - or even before - Ryan Baird? No. Do Andrew or McBurney possess anywhere near the same talent or potential as Kelleher? Absolutely not. Lowry is a brilliant player, but I suspect he's simply too small for international level, and it would be sad but not unrealistic or unfair if a player of his talent, but also his stature, never earned a cap. Marty Moore is actually turning in excellent performances for Ulster, industrious and with a decent amount of skills, but I don't think he should get another call up. He's too old - he's not the future. It'd be a step backwards. Those are, I think, all realistic assessments and judgements.

But equally, do I think Billy Burns has earned a call up ahead of Harry Byrne? Yes I do. Do I think Byrne would perform as well as Burns off an international bench tomorrow? Not a chance. Harry Byrne is not on the cusp of being good enough for international level. He may well be a future superstar, but let's worry about that when he's actually better than other players working their holes off, week in, week out, putting in better performances at a higher level, who are in their mid twenties.

So, yeah, I say give Burns a shot.

Yep, agree with all of this. Happy to see how Burns goes. Sometimes guys have an ability to step up with no drop off in performance (Keenan has done so in the last few weeks) while others struggle with the pace at Test level (Byrne has done so in the last few weeks). Burns has clearly done enough in training to (a) move ahead of Carty and (b) get his shot at showing his worth. Lets see how he gets on and make a call then on how close he is or isn't.

As for Harry Byrne, he still has a bit to go yet. Thats not a criticism, just an observation. If he can make the step up then great. But he's far better off getting mins under his belt with Leinster for now.

Paul Smeenus

For me, Lowry is the heart-breaker. So much talent, but such a small package. Maybe he'll get a shot... but I'm not holding my breath.

I'd hope Eric O'Sullivan gets a crack at the next Six Nations, or is at least in the squad. He was going great guns before McGrath arrived, and then Jack's experience and scrummaging saw him push EOS to the bench. O'Sullivan lost a bit of impetus then, understandably. But he's close to being first choice again.

It's hard to tell, because we have this thing that's brand new to Ulster that's making it all very complicated. Rotation, I think it's called.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I don’t think he really has been shown up though, when ever he has played he has come now he ireland are well ahead or in a **** show.

RB has had one started game tho, as far as I can remember, which was the England RWC warm-up game that finished 57-15. England are obviously capable of doing that to a lot of teams, but he didn't have a good day at the office.

Leinstertomas

Was struggling remember the last time Henshaw and Farrell played together and just read on the 42 that they haven't since u18! Will be interested to see how that goes

bilston

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

For me, Lowry is the heart-breaker. So much talent, but such a small package. Maybe he'll get a shot... but I'm not holding my breath.

I'd hope Eric O'Sullivan gets a crack at the next Six Nations, or is at least in the squad. He was going great guns before McGrath arrived, and then Jack's experience and scrummaging saw him push EOS to the bench. O'Sullivan lost a bit of impetus then, understandably. But he's close to being first choice again.

It's hard to tell, because we have this thing that's brand new to Ulster that's making it all very complicated. Rotation, I think it's called.

Lowry will get a shot at some point. He's too good not to be given a chance.

His positional game at 15 seems to be first class.

Size will probably work against him. But I'd like to think he can get a few caps along the way

Eod100

thomond2006 wrote: »

At first look it suggests an eye on development but Earls on the bench doesn't fit that narrative. Stander has been in the form of his career since the return from lockdown, it would be odd to bench him.

Guess Stander could be rested plus gives a chance to other players. Heard Sexton talk about consistency in the 4 games so was thinking squad would be fairly similar for Wales and England games at least but maybe it's performance wise whoever is in squad.

Guess with no RWC seeding at stake, there's less at stake than previous games around this time of year too so might as well experiment a bit ahead of 6N.

Paul Smeenus

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I can agree he has moved to another level in the last while, I just don’t think that level is good enough for Heineken cup and certainly not for international.

He might look good against a pants welsh team, but he’s not going to take the jersey from sexton anytime soon, and that’s what is needed.

As regards POM being included, our lineout was a shambles against France. POM is our best lineout jumper.

Who is going to take the jersey from Sexton soon? Who's closer to doing it?

kingofthekong

shootermacg wrote: »

Surely Cronin is due a shot at loosehead? He's easily better than the shadow that is Healy at this stage.

Cronin gives away more stupid penalties then even Healy does, he literally offers nothing which would have him ahead of Healy

kingofthekong

Downlinz wrote: »

I think you need to take a breather outside the blue bubble if you genuinely think a guy with 12 career appearances is going to displace Henderson any time soon.

It's nice to be excited about the potential of young players but a few good performances against Dragons isn't going to see him move ahead of a lion, provincial captain and member of the international leadership group.

I think you need to get that chip off your shoulder, I reckon Baird starts with Ryan barring injury in the next year with Henderson coming off the bench

thomond2006

Cronin has been immense for Munster this season. He turns 30 in a few weeks so is still a potential option for 2023.
I wouldn't rule him out of breaking into the Six Nations squad, particularly with Kilcoyne sidelined until the New Year.

The Lost Sheep

kingofthekong wrote: »

I think you need to get that chip off your shoulder, I reckon Baird starts with Ryan barring injury in the next year with Henderson coming off the bench

You are over egging The Michaels guys a fair bit. Bit much to be going on about chip on shoulder...

thomond2006 wrote: »

Cronin has been immense for Munster this season. He turns 30 in a few weeks so is still a potential option for 2023.
I wouldn't rule him out of breaking into the Six Nations squad, particularly with Kilcoyne sidelined until the New Year.

Only year and half younger than one of our two new caps this weekend. And as you say is potential option for 2023 especially as he's a prop where starting later/continuing on into 30s isnt near much of an issue compared to other positions

lawrencesummers

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Who is going to take the jersey from Sexton soon? Who's closer to doing it?

Two questions that I would love to see Us closer to answering before the end of next years nations, but if someone doesn’t get a decent chance this Autumn they certainly won’t in the new year.

I would have thought that Byrne who finished the French game would be the first to get a start and make a claim.

lawrencesummers

thomond2006 wrote: »

Cronin has been immense for Munster this season. He turns 30 in a few weeks so is still a potential option for 2023.
I wouldn't rule him out of breaking into the Six Nations squad, particularly with Kilcoyne sidelined until the New Year.

Cronin scrum is a problem at the highest levels.

Paul Smeenus

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Two questions that I would love to see Us closer to answering before the end of next years nations, but if someone doesn’t get a decent chance this Autumn they certainly won’t in the new year.

I would have thought that Byrne who finished the French game would be the first to get a start and make a claim.

Hopefully he'll at least get a start against Georgia.

Niallof9

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You are over egging The Michaels guys a fair bit. Bit much to be going on about chip on shoulder...

Only year and half younger than one of our two new caps this weekend. And as you say is potential option for 2023 especially as he's a prop where starting later/continuing on into 30s isnt near much of an issue compared to other positions

who's overegging ..unfortunately or fortunately they are producing a heap of our elite young talent.

Baird looks class and seems to have real zip in his carrying something we have been missing for a long time.

Henderson needs to start living up to his early promise in Green.

Thank heavens Andy Farrell seems to be from a different school of thought to some of you guys. HE trusts form, invests in inexperience. That is something even though i don't think its far enough.

shootermacg

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Cronin scrum is a problem at the highest levels.

Tell me how did Healy/Porter manage the scrum vs Sarries? Cronin's scrum work is fine.

kingofthekong

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You are over egging The Michaels guys a fair bit. Bit much to be going on about chip on shoulder...

Only year and half younger than one of our two new caps this weekend. And as you say is potential option for 2023 especially as he's a prop where starting later/continuing on into 30s isnt near much of an issue compared to other positions

I'm over-egging Michaels?? they are by far producing the best talent in the country and its not even remotely close,

L.Mcgrath,
Penny,
James Ryan,
Ryan Baird,
Kelleher,
R.Moloney,
Josh murphy,
J. Dunne,
Ross Byrne,
Harry Byrne,
Dan Leavy
Max Deegan
Rory O'loughlin

shootermacg

kingofthekong wrote: »

I'm over-egging Michaels?? they are by far producing the best talent in the country and its not even remotely close,

L.Mcgrath,
Penny,
James Ryan,
Ryan Baird,
Kelleher,
R.Moloney,
Josh murphy,
J. Dunne,
Ross Byrne,
Harry Byrne,
Dan Leavy
Max Deegan
Rory O'loughlin

Kelleher's throwing is dodgy...and that's to Toner. Adding him to a lineout that's already creaking is not a good idea IMO. Marshall and O'Byrne are currently throwing darts, no idea why they aren't involved.

kingofthekong

shootermacg wrote: »

Kelleher's throwing is dodgy...and that's to Toner. Adding him to a lineout that's already creaking is not a good idea IMO. Marshall and O'Byrne are currently throwing darts, no idea why they aren't involved.

I think Farrel is prepared to take some pain with missed lineouts in the short term and hope he grows into it with experience,

Bringing in Kevin O'byrne to replace Kelleher would be absolutely ridiculous

shootermacg

kingofthekong wrote: »

I think Farrel is prepared to take some pain with missed lineouts in the short term and hope he grows into it with experience,

Bringing in Kevin O'byrne to replace Kelleher would be absolutely ridiculous

I don't get this growing into stuff by playing international games. By all means grow into it in the club games. There should be a minimum standard at international level, one of those should be doing your basics.

Leinster need to look seriously at their lineout coaching. Cronin, Kelleher and Tracy...It surely isn't a coincidence at this stage.

kingofthekong

shootermacg wrote: »

I don't get this growing into stuff by playing international games. By all means grow into it in the club games. There should be a minimum standard at international level, one of those should be doing your basics.

Leinster need to look seriously at their lineout coaching. Cronin, Kelleher and Tracy...It surely isn't a coincidence at this stage.

Some coaches would have that opinion but I'm glad Farrell doesnt I think Kelleher deserves his spot for his work around the field, and he doesnt lose that many lineouts ,

I agree about the Leinster line-out, its been one of the worst parts of Leinsters game for about 2 years , structurally something looks poorly coached, maul set ups and defense looks poorly coached also

Zzippy

shootermacg wrote: »

Tell me how did Healy/Porter manage the scrum vs Sarries? Cronin's scrum work is fine.

shootermacg wrote: »

From what I've read, I think its only a Leinster opinion really.

shootermacg wrote: »

I don't get this growing into stuff by playing international games. By all means grow into it in the club games. There should be a minimum standard at international level, one of those should be doing your basics.

Leinster need to look seriously at their lineout coaching. Cronin, Kelleher and Tracy...It surely isn't a coincidence at this stage.

Mod: Please read the charter. Trying to start an inter-provincial p1ssing contest will get you into trouble, fast. You've been around long enough to know better, so it will be considered deliberate trolling if you do it again.

irishbucsfan

What’s the story with this match on Friday. Does anyone know if Amazon Prime have it internationally?

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What’s the story with this match on Friday. Does anyone know if Amazon Prime have it internationally?

According to this: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/autumn-nations-cup-watch-amazon-prime-b1719719.html

I'm wondering do I just sign up to amazon prime and will it be obvious how to watch the games from there?

I scrolled down a bit on amazon prime and there was a live events section hidden away. Threw on some tennis. The quality was not as good as I expected.

Fixtures and TV channel
Autumn Nations Cup fixtures and TV channel

Round 1

Ireland vs Wales, 7pm on 13 November – Channel 4

Italy vs Scotland, 12.45pm on 14 November – Amazon

England vs Georgia, 3pm on 14 November – Amazon

France vs Fiji, 3pm on 15 November – Amazon

Round 2

Italy vs Fiji, 12.45pm on 21 November – Amazon

England vs Ireland, 3pm on 21 November – Channel 4 and Amazon

Wales vs Georgia, 5.15pm on 21 November – Amazon

Scotland vs France, 3pm on 22 November – Amazon

Round 3

Scotland vs Fiji, 1.45pm on 28 November – Amazon

Wales vs England, 4pm on 28 November – Amazon

France vs Italy, 8pm on 28 November – Amazon

Ireland vs Georgia, 2pm on 29 November – Channel 4

Finals Weekend

Georgia vs TBD, 12pm on 5 December – Amazon

Ireland vs TBD, 2.15pm on 5 December – Amazon

Wales vs TBD, 4.45pm on 5 December – Amazon

England vs TBD, 2pm on 6 December – Amazon

EachSmallChime

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Two questions that I would love to see Us closer to answering before the end of next years nations, but if someone doesn’t get a decent chance this Autumn they certainly won’t in the new year.

I would have thought that Byrne who finished the French game would be the first to get a start and make a claim.

The Georgia game is going to be huge for Ross Byrne. He was individually awful when he came on in the French match. With Carty gone, he's now our most experienced backup to Sexton.

He needs to start, get plenty of minutes and be rock solid against Georgia, otherwise we're fairly goosed.

Bazzo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

According to this: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/autumn-nations-cup-watch-amazon-prime-b1719719.html

I'm wondering do I just sign up to amazon prime and will it be obvious how to watch the games from there?

I scrolled down a bit on amazon prime and there was a live events section hidden away. Threw on some tennis. The quality was not as good as I expected.

When I go to my prime video it's the first thing advertised anyway but it's fairly easy to navigate to "sport" up the top anyway (from my mobile I just click the menu drop-down and it's there).

OldRio

Really excited about Friday. Nice blend of youth and experience. Wales have lost 5 in a row. We're mullering the Welsh teams in the Pro14. Let's hope our league form transfers to the international side.
Plenty to be optimistic about.