Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

molloyjh · 10-11-2020 3:04pm

I have a sneaking suspicion we'll see the logic in some of these calls by the end of the month. Theres a lot to juggle here. A new system they still need to bed in, giving players minutes in that system, blooding new talent, getting back on the horse, preparing for a trip to Twickenham (where we simply can't get badly beaten again), balance minutes overall given 6 Tests & 2 HEC games in 9 weeks and also a small matter of actually winning the game.

I might have made a few tweaks myself, like starting Ed Byrne and having Conan & Conway on the bench, but overall I've no real complaints with it. Its 1 game. So far we've seen Farrell isn't afraid to completely change up how we play and also isnt afraid to blood new guys. Ed Byrne, Kelleher, Doris, Connors, Deegan, JGP, Keenan, Lowe, and Burns have (or will have) all featured for the first time under him. Guys like Baird and Daly could have but for injury and likely still will. Thats a reasonable number of new caps in what will be 9 games by the end of the month.

Tommybojangles · 10-11-2020 3:06pm

Last week it was France now the uber successful Wallabies are the team we should be trying to emulate according to some on here ðŸ™„ðŸ™„

I like the team. Stockdale is being given more of a chance, I dont think hes the answer but no point dropping him after one bad game away to France. Keenan only had 2 caps so give him more of a run.

Kelleher coming into the pack will hopefully show he can stay there long term and doris at 8 is interesting. No point putting in a brand new half back pairing IMO, we've done it for years against Samoa, Georgia etc and wound up with 2 backup players who had never played with the first choise 9/10.

The Injury to Baird is a real pity, was very excited to see him, and loose head is a big problem

lawrencesummers · 10-11-2020 3:08pm

I was all set to slate the selection of Sexton at ten.
That this game is the perfect opportunity to give a start to another 10.
That the Irish OH position needs to be put up for grabs because of sextons age.

But then I see that they have Burns selected on the bench and now I hope sexton plays 80 minutes because I don’t rate Burns at Heineken Cup level let alone international level. He is to small and kicks a disproportionately large amount of possession, and doesn’t even do it well.

molloyjh · 10-11-2020 3:08pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

We gain nothing in the medium and long term selecting Sexton, Healy, Murray, Earls and O ‘Mahony in this Wales game.
Stockdale at FB should have been shelved after Paris debacle.
Disappointed at how short term his selections are especially considering that this is a micky mouse tournament with no fans.

Comparing it to what Rennie has been doing with Australia.
4 games for Australia. All v NZ and 10 debuts. 7 debutants started in the XV!

Farrell 6 games. 8 debuts. 4 debutants in the XV.

Queensland No.8 Harry Wilson 20 / Caelen Dorris 22
QLD back-rower Fraser McReight 21 / Will Connors 24
NSW back-row Lachie Swinton 23 / -
Brumbies winger Tom Wright 23 / Hugo Keenan 24
Fiji Filipo Daugunu 25 / NZ Lowe 28
Samoa/NZ QLD 12 Hunter Paisami 22 / -
NZ NSW 12 Irae Simone 25 / -
NZ/Aus QLD 10 Noah Lolesio 20 / Eng Burns 26
QLD 9 Tate McDermott 22 / NZ Park 28
NSW Prop Angus Bell 20 / Ed Byrne 27
Hooker - / Ronan Kelleher 22

Average age Australia 22.1
Average age Ireland 25.1

Australia have been a basket case for years now. They need a massive shot in the arm. Theres no point in comparing them with us. It isnt even remotely close to being the same.

aloooof · 10-11-2020 3:14pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Australia have been a basket case for years now. They need a massive shot in the arm. Theres no point in comparing them with us. It isnt even remotely close to being the same.

The format probably lends itself better to change as well. If we had 4 consecutive Tests against, say, England, I'd fully expect to see a large number of changes across those tests too. From both teams.

Paul Smeenus · 10-11-2020 3:16pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

You don't rate a player at this level who is uncapped at this level?

Burns really hasn't done very well in any of those games he hasn't played in, at this level he has never played at. We can agree on that, surely?

Niallof9 · 10-11-2020 3:20pm

Burns isn't good enough for this level. lets be completely honest with ourselves.

Niallof9 · 10-11-2020 3:21pm

aloooof wrote: »

Didn't you also make the prediction (and were disappointed) that Will Connors would be an automatic starter?

well the fact is he brought back one of the old reliables (connors could play 6). so i don't think it counts. I meant in terms of fresh blood.

its definitely more promising than past coaches. that is something. Yet Healy, POM, the bench are all shocking calls in a nothing tournament and a free play. Build true depth.

molloyjh · 10-11-2020 3:26pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Burns really hasn't done very well in any of those games he hasn't played in, at this level he has never played at. We can agree on that, surely?

We can also agree he hasn't completed a single tackle and, most damning of all for a 10, neither passed nor kicked the ball.

Seriously though, I get the point. I wouldn't be convinced that Burns is a Test level 10. The thing is, we aren't exactly blessed with options. We might as well take a look given that nobody else is putting their hand up.

ionadnapokot · 10-11-2020 3:27pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Australia have been a basket case for years now. They need a massive shot in the arm. Theres no point in comparing them with us. It isnt even remotely close to being the same.

There is always a point in comparing with other rugby nations if you want to progress.
Especially ones with a similar age profile and relatively limited player pool.
It's also a good comparison if you want some perspective on how short sighted this selection is v's what Rennie went with v NZ.

You might think Ireland dont need a massive shot in the arm whereas i think they need a massive kick up the hole based on 2019 6N, RWC & 2020 6N.

Niallof9 · 10-11-2020 3:29pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

There is always a point in comparing with other rugby nations if you want to progress.
Especially ones with a similar age profile and relatively limited player pool.
It's also a good comparison if you want some perspective on how short sighted this selection is v's what Rennie went with v NZ.

You might think Ireland dont need a massive shot in the arm whereas i think they need a massive kick up the hole based on 2019 6N, RWC & 2020 6N.

they do need one agreed. we're slipping into believing our hype. 2018 was great but its an age in sport. we need to move on now. they need to drop the team of us and reboot. Picking lads like Burns won't be doing us any favors. Its promising AF seems to trust lads quicker than any of our past coaches. that is positive. Doris, kelleher, Connors, Keenan are testament to it.

10-11-2020 3:34pm

I think that team will thump the weakest Welsh outfit in a decade and delighted to see Lowe in green - I had no doubt in my mind that he would go straight into the 23 albeit this isn't confirmation yet that he is first choice.

Re the POM selection, it's a 4 week tournament and he is a part of the wider squad so this doesn't indicate pecking order but it does give Kelleher another jumping option and similarly having Farrell in doesn't suggest Aki has slipped behind.

I think the Earls call is more because he can cover wing or centre.

I have absolutely no issue with this team, looking forward to the game.

molloyjh · 10-11-2020 3:36pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

There is always a point in comparing with other rugby nations if you want to progress.
Especially ones with a similar age profile and relatively limited player pool.
It's also a good comparison if you want some perspective on how short sighted this selection is v's what Rennie went with v NZ.

You might think Ireland dont need a massive shot in the arm whereas i think they need a massive kick up the hole based on 2019 6N, RWC & 2020 6N.

We were 1 of only 2 teams that could have won the 2020 6Ns with 40 mins left in the tournament. At which point we were missing Kilcoyne, Kelleher, Furlong, Henderson, Leavy, Carbery, Ringrose, Earls and Larmour from our 23. We lost away to a superb French side and played badly in Twickenham. 2020 was not as bad as you make out.

And Australia needed a reset. Really, really badly. We dont. We need to make sure we continue to turn things around. We have been. Its a process and it will take time. Australia suffered a humiliating 5-43 loss at home ahead of the changes that Rennie made. And they won 1 game. Lets wait and see how it all pans out there beyond just 1 game before hailing it as the way forward shall we....

bilston · 10-11-2020 3:39pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I must say i don't rate Burns at this level.
I wouldn't go with Madigan either (he needs to play allot more rugby)

But why is Carty not involved?
Id even cap young Byrne v Georgia.

Burns has come a long way in the last 12 months or so. I'd say he is well deserving of a chance. I think he might surprise a few. I dont see him being theing term answer or anything like that, but he could be someone who might be in consideration for a WC squad spot in 3 years time. We will see.

Niallof9 · 10-11-2020 3:43pm

molloyjh wrote: »

We were 1 of only 2 teams that could have won the 2020 6Ns with 40 mins left in the tournament. At which point we were missing Kilcoyne, Kelleher, Furlong, Henderson, Leavy, Carbery, Ringrose, Earls and Larmour from our 23. We lost away to a superb French side and played badly in Twickenham. 2020 was not as bad as you make out.

And Australia needed a reset. Really, really badly. We dont. We need to make sure we continue to turn things around. We have been. Its a process and it will take time. Australia suffered a humiliating 5-43 loss at home ahead of the changes that Rennie made. And they won 1 game. Lets wait and see how it all pans out there beyond just 1 game before hailing it as the way forward shall we....

could have, should have. didn't. we weren't good enough to beat France in a behind closed doors game. that's it. we've been hammered by England thrice now. we're not looking in great shape at all. i'm not sure where we turned anything around?

Injuries are definitely a factor granted.

But unlike Australia we wouldn't have a hope of beating NZ. you conveniently forgot that. they also drew with them in October. People really need to catch a wake up with whats happening here. we haven't been any great shakes whatsoever. by picking such a strong experienced squad AF has walked himself into needing a good result here in this thing.

he would get bags of slack (like the injuries excuse) if he had a bit of balls and said right this is what we're doing ala Rennie. but no, now we need another top 3 finish and we'll be eventually rueing it when we are selecting a 38 year old outhalf in vital tests etc. its a never ending cycle. its worse now because its such a free shot.

bilston · 10-11-2020 3:43pm

The reaction to Burns's selection is probably more reflective of the southern media's complete lack of interest in Ulster rugby.

If you're really honest a lot of you probably haven't seen him play consistently enough to form an opinion. If you had youd have known his game has moved to another level in the last 12 months.

kilns · 10-11-2020 3:48pm

In what amounts to more or less a meaningless game, it is nice to see some rotation in the starting team.

However what stands out is our severe lack of depth at prop currently, for a game like this Healy should not even be in the squad but yet he has to be as the drop down after him at loosehead is dramatic

I am disappointed to see Doris move to 8 to accommodate POM, Doris needs all the time he can get at 6 at international level

If the back 3 click they could be very very exciting, Stockdale 100% deserves another chance at full back

ionadnapokot · 10-11-2020 3:59pm

molloyjh wrote: »

We were 1 of only 2 teams that could have won the 2020 6Ns with 40 mins left in the tournament. At which point we were missing Kilcoyne, Kelleher, Furlong, Henderson, Leavy, Carbery, Ringrose, Earls and Larmour from our 23. We lost away to a superb French side and played badly in Twickenham. 2020 was not as bad as you make out.

And Australia needed a reset. Really, really badly. We dont. We need to make sure we continue to turn things around. We have been. Its a process and it will take time. Australia suffered a humiliating 5-43 loss at home ahead of the changes that Rennie made. And they won 1 game. Lets wait and see how it all pans out there beyond just 1 game before hailing it as the way forward shall we....

Im sorry i dont agree with this premise. I said 2019 6N, 2019 RWC & the 2020 6N.
The main reason we were so bad in 2019 was primarily because of Murray, Sexton's from. Also Best, Healy and Stockdale.
The main players are all still in-situ and played poorly again in 2020 6N's and are again selected for a meaningless game v Wales.

It was obvious during the 2019 6N that something was seriously wrong. I do recall you saying to me then that it was too early to say and that i was over reacting.

So here we are 18 months on and i think there is more than legitimate grounds to question this selection.

& to your point about England and France.
We also had these main players v England. It wasnt that we got badly beaten v England it was how they beat us. Again. & how we capitulated. Again v's them.

v France. Ringrose and Furlong were massive losses. But you could see drastic system errors in defense and shocking execution of attack v them.
France didnt have to play particularly well to beat us. In fact they played poorly enough and are also a far younger team and aslo with a new coaching ticket.

I've seen enough in the last 5 games and the previous 10 games (in which Farrell has been integral) to question the basis of the selection, the coaching and the game plan.
It's early yet. But this selection is another red flag to me.

shootermacg · 10-11-2020 4:02pm

bilston wrote: »

If you're really honest a lot of you probably haven't seen him play consistently enough to form an opinion.

From what I've read, I think its only a Leinster opinion really.

UAEguy2020 · 10-11-2020 4:04pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

There is always a point in comparing with other rugby nations if you want to progress.
Especially ones with a similar age profile and relatively limited player pool.
It's also a good comparison if you want some perspective on how short sighted this selection is v's what Rennie went with v NZ.

You might think Ireland dont need a massive shot in the arm whereas i think they need a massive kick up the hole based on 2019 6N, RWC & 2020 6N.

Can we please win the 6N just so we can clear out accounts like this from the forum

:(:(

Paul Smeenus · 10-11-2020 4:04pm

molloyjh wrote: »

We can also agree he hasn't completed a single tackle and, most damning of all for a 10, neither passed nor kicked the ball.

Seriously though, I get the point. I wouldn't be convinced that Burns is a Test level 10. The thing is, we aren't exactly blessed with options. We might as well take a look given that nobody else is putting their hand up.

I completely agree.

I'd not be confident that he's good enough to to start and pull the strings to win against anyone better than Italy. I'd say he's certainly not at the moment.

But I think he has earned a crack at it. He's 26, has put in some very good performances in his last year and a half at Ulster, and has played in tough, make-or-break games.

This categorically is not aimed at you at all, Molloy, but there's a definite undertow in the conversation around the Ireland team that opportunities belong to the right type - young Leinster lads, 20, 21, 22. There's been calls for Dan Sheehan to play in this tournament, and Harry Byrne.

Felipe Contepomi recently declared himself delighted that Byrne had worked on his fitness to a point where he was able to go 80 minutes at Pro14 level.
( https://www.the42.ie/harry-byrne-leinster-out-half-5255359-Nov2020/ ) You'll have to excuse me if I wonder if he's really earned a call-up to the international side. If he can really do a job.

We all suffer from our provincial biases, I certainly won't claim that I don't have them. But there's a weight of posters on here uninterested in having to - or unable to - assess soberly any player they haven't been following since Irish schools at St Michaels.

I take it on a case-by-case basis. Do I want to see Kieran Treadwell or Alan O'Connor line out for Ireland instead of - or even before - Ryan Baird? No. Do Andrew or McBurney possess anywhere near the same talent or potential as Kelleher? Absolutely not. Lowry is a brilliant player, but I suspect he's simply too small for international level, and it would be sad but not unrealistic or unfair if a player of his talent, but also his stature, never earned a cap. Marty Moore is actually turning in excellent performances for Ulster, industrious and with a decent amount of skills, but I don't think he should get another call up. He's too old - he's not the future. It'd be a step backwards. Those are, I think, all realistic assessments and judgements.

But equally, do I think Billy Burns has earned a call up ahead of Harry Byrne? Yes I do. Do I think Byrne would perform as well as Burns off an international bench tomorrow? Not a chance. Harry Byrne is not on the cusp of being good enough for international level. He may well be a future superstar, but let's worry about that when he's actually better than other players working their holes off, week in, week out, putting in better performances at a higher level, who are in their mid twenties.

So, yeah, I say give Burns a shot.

ionadnapokot · 10-11-2020 4:05pm

bilston wrote: »

The reaction to Burns's selection is probably more reflective of the southern media's complete lack of interest in Ulster rugby.

If you're really honest a lot of you probably haven't seen him play consistently enough to form an opinion. If you had youd have known his game has moved to another level in the last 12 months.

Yikes!
im not sure.....in the interest of keeping a good old debate active.
Would you have him as a starting 10 for Ireland in the next 2 6N's or RWC?

From my point of view Carbery, Carty, Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne and Jack Crowley will all be ahead of Burns in the conversation as to who should be the starting 10 for the next 2-10 years

10-11-2020 4:05pm

Ross Byrne is a good player and looks top drawer when he has a Leinster pack bludgeoning all around them but as we've seen he is less effective when the two opposing packs match up a bit more and he doesn't have a big toolkit to unlock teams.

I think if we were expecting a tight last 20 minutes Byrne might have gotten the nod but I think the selection of Burns indicates an intention to hold onto the ball, kick a bit less and try and run in some scores.

Again - a decision that I've no issue with, Burns is a quality operator and we're lucky to have him.

UAEguy2020 · 10-11-2020 4:06pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Im sorry i dont agree with this premise. I said 2019 6N, 2019 RWC & the 2020 6N.
The main reason we were so bad in 2019 was primarily because of Murray, Sexton's from. Also Best, Healy and Stockdale.
The main players are all still in-situ and played poorly again in 2020 6N's and are again selected for a meaningless game v Wales.

It was obvious during the 2019 6N that something was seriously wrong. I do recall you saying to me then that it was too early to say and that i was over reacting.

So here we are 18 months on and i think there is more than legitimate grounds to question this selection.

& to your point about England and France.
We also had these main players v England. It wasnt that we got badly beaten v England it was how they beat us. Again. & how we capitulated. Again v's them.

v France. Ringrose and Furlong were massive losses. But you could see drastic system errors in defense and shocking execution of attack v them.
France didnt have to play particularly well to beat us. In fact they played poorly enough and are also a far younger team and aslo with a new coaching ticket.

I've seen enough in the last 5 games and the previous 10 games (in which Farrell has been integral) to question the basis of the selection, the coaching and the game plan.
It's early yet. But this selection is another red flag to me.

France's average age was only a year or 2 younger than the Irish side. By alot younger you mean we had 1 really old player and the rest were mostly 24-28.

Downlinz · 10-11-2020 4:06pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

With Baird and Ringrose and leavy to recover from Injury or come into the team and Jimmy o'brien looking good at FB for Leinster we could have an all Ireland team of only leinster players... soon,

Somehow I dont see the management picking it but were not far off with 11/15 being leinster as it stands

I think you need to take a breather outside the blue bubble if you genuinely think a guy with 12 career appearances is going to displace Henderson any time soon.

It's nice to be excited about the potential of young players but a few good performances against Dragons isn't going to see him move ahead of a lion, provincial captain and member of the international leadership group.

jacothelad · 10-11-2020 4:07pm

molloyjh wrote: »

We can also agree he hasn't completed a single tackle and, most damning of all for a 10, neither passed nor kicked the ball.

Seriously though, I get the point. I wouldn't be convinced that Burns is a Test level 10. The thing is, we aren't exactly blessed with options. We might as well take a look given that nobody else is putting their hand up.

Imagine how he might go behind a really dominant pack. He plays right to the line, has a good range of vision in passing, is accurate out of hand, can tackle and has great field awareness.

shootermacg · 10-11-2020 4:10pm

Surely Cronin is due a shot at loosehead? He's easily better than the shadow that is Healy at this stage.

sydthebeat · 10-11-2020 4:13pm

bilston wrote: »

The reaction to Burns's selection is probably more reflective of the southern media's complete lack of interest in Ulster rugby.

If you're really honest a lot of you probably haven't seen him play consistently enough to form an opinion. If you had youd have known his game has moved to another level in the last 12 months.

agreed.

personally i think he has more in his bag than Ross Byrne, and, of all the available options, hes probably a better choice now than both carty and byrne .
mainly because hes a better mix of the two... he has the control of byrne and the playmaking ability of carty.

where i do fear a bit for him at test level is physicality... hes slight enough at 87 kgs... and i wonder how is kicking would be under pressure at this level too. it doenst help that he doenst kick for ulster

UAEguy2020 · 10-11-2020 4:33pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ross Byrne is a good player and looks top drawer when he has a Leinster pack bludgeoning all around them but as we've seen he is less effective when the two opposing packs match up a bit more and he doesn't have a big toolkit to unlock teams.

I think if we were expecting a tight last 20 minutes Byrne might have gotten the nod but I think the selection of Burns indicates an intention to hold onto the ball, kick a bit less and try and run in some scores.

Again - a decision that I've no issue with, Burns is a quality operator and we're lucky to have him.

I don’t think he really has been shown up though, when ever he has played he has come now he ireland are well ahead or in a **** show.

Farrell is looking for at least it seems and from what I’ve heard Byrne is one of the slowest players in the squad so that could explain why he isn’t really interested, the way he wants Ireland to play I can see why Burns has been picked, arguably one of the most if not most improved players in Irish rugby for the last few years, I would have laughed if you told me he could be an Irish international after his first season. Still only 26 so we can definitely get afew seasons out of him.

Burkie1203 · 10-11-2020 4:39pm

shootermacg wrote: »

Surely Cronin is due a shot at loosehead? He's easily better than the shadow that is Healy at this stage.

No he isn't. Healy is still producing better then any other LH currently.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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