The kickstarter adventures of Sólás - solaswatches.com

893bet

You basically called him dishonest for allowing another persons review have a minor error; despite the fact that it’s been shouted from the roof tops that the movement is Chinese.

I am not sure what the word “legal” has to do anything. He is hardly going to start suing.

banie01

893bet wrote: »

You basically called him dishonest for allowing another persons review have a minor error; despite the fact that it’s been shouted from the roof tops that the movement is Chinese.

I am not sure what the word “legal” has to do anything. He is hardly going to start suing.

No, I said allowing the assembled in Ireland portion of the review to stand was dishonest.

Those are very different things.
Errors happen every day, it's how one handles rectifying such errors that matter more than the happenstance.

The circumstance of the error, were it was pointed out.
Then a defence of what constitutes place of assembly was entered in to.

In the interim the review was corrected at Diyu's request.

However much like Diyu, I have a sense of integrity and in this particular instance I stand by what I said, I stand by the spirit of it.

All that was required was a nod/wink and a request for correction as happens every day round the world for a multitude of issues.

The leap to defend an error, and excuse it are what irk me in this particular circumstance.
Not the error, but the actions after it.

Might be that I have a thin line, but it's a line I'm staying my side of.

I find it amusing that some folk are jumping on a bandwagon after Diyu asked them not to?

What's the aim?

Wibbs

Right. Stop this back and forth bickering or take it to PM. If anyone doesn't want to buy or contribute to the thread in a helpful manner, cool beans, but the sniping stops here. Thank you.

Thirdfox

This is it wrote: »

Anyway, €1,600+ for the chairty so far. I was thinking €1k including your donation, this is fantastic stuff

Yeah - totally surprised by that and great for Alone - and that last 100 euro donation was from a company I was enquiring about getting customs importation help from - they've been pretty active in helping out with the Covid response here in Ireland too so it was touching to see them contribute some more to this cause as well.

And I would expect maybe another minor bump once the actual SoK is "assembled" here in Ireland (not putting fuel on the fire - it was actually the first word that came to mind ) As my leather supplier will be sending on the straps to me next week and the rest should be ready by mid-July - after it is "put together" - I'll get some photos taken of the complete watch and at that point I might ask Alone if they might promote it one more time - by then it would be a week before the draw too.

Who knows - we might reach 2.5k once all contributions are put together.

And actually - something I had discussed with Alone already - when the SoK comes out I'll be adding one of the review versions (so slightly battered...) into the draw too just so there won't be just one winner from the prize draw. It'll be pretty unique too - what with the misspelling and "Comic Sans" logo, dial/caseback text that will be changed and the additional date window frame. A prototype that someone might appreciate even if it's not in pristine condition any more. So 1/100ish odds suddenly becomes 1/50ish odds of winning something


edit: and here's the review again on the latest page (at least with how I've arranged my viewing options - page 29)

https://wristwatchreview.co.uk/solas-starlight-review

Cienciano

Thirdfox wrote: »

A lovely quote from his written review too "...in my opinion, this is the best watch that I have seen from an Irish brand..."

Stick that on McGonigles front door :pac:

No1VIPER

All of this debate about the strap being Irish or not, is why I didn't really focus on it too much in my review. It's a little confusing on how Irish it really is.

Thirdfox

Hey James - I don't think there was any debate about the strap being Irish or not - rather if the watch can be said to be assembled in Ireland (which I'm not claiming but I did say wasn't incorrect).

The strap is most definitely Irish, that's something I will stand behind 100% having met Robin of Turas Leather who makes these straps by hand in the hills of Wicklow. The material as stated on the website is ordered in from Horween tannery in the US (because Ireland has no tanneries left) - but the Swiss don't mine their iron ore from Switzerland either (do they smelt their own stainless steel even?) - so having the raw components ordered from abroad definitely does not influence whether the strap is "made in Ireland" or not. I think if you speak to Robin - the maker of the straps - he will tell you he definitely considers his handiwork as made in Ireland (even if the thread, the springbars, the glue, the varnish, the clasp and the raw leather - none of them are manufactured in Ireland - it is his skill in assembling and working on the leather that creates the end piece you see on the Starlight).

If I had any concern at all about it being called an Irish strap I wouldn't have paid 10x the price for it over a similar in feel (but not comparable in materials) Chinese strap my factory partner was offering.

banie01

100% agree with TF here, no issue at all with where any of the components are sourced. None.

The issue I flagged was with a review
It has been addressed and in all honesty and fairness!

The watch itself is as Irish as it's currently possible to be unless TF starts making movements in his kitchen

My issue was addressed and corrected, I see no other issue with that at all.

Eoin

For the second review, it's a bit disappointing that the movement is barely called out - and then says that similar watches (but usually with lesser movements) can be had cheaper. Of course they can, they have lesser movements. I do agree with them that the second hand could be lighter, now I look closer.

It does say though the dial is natural aventurine - is that the case?

Not to re-open the whole thing, and I don't really care either way - but I'd expect that "assembled" means that hands & dials are added to the movement and cased in Ireland. But that's not based on anything other than gut feel; perhaps there are guidelines on what this actually means.

Thirdfox

Eoin wrote: »

For the second review, it's a bit disappointing that the movement is barely called out - and then says that similar watches (but usually with lesser movements) can be had cheaper. Of course they can, they have lesser movements. I do agree with them that the second hand could be lighter, now I look closer.

It does say though the dial is natural aventurine - is that the case?

Not to re-open the whole thing, and I don't really care either way - but I'd expect that "assembled" means that hands & dials are added to the movement and cased in Ireland. But that's not based on anything other than gut feel; perhaps there are guidelines on what this actually means.

Good spot Eoin - I'll ask Mike to update the review there - though that's an easy mistake to make (again in info pack I did not say it was natural aventurine) - I did mention that even Omega and other high level Swiss companies make the mistake of calling their aventurine natural when it clearly isn't (see the Speedmaster I love - it's not natural aventurine but aventurine glass too - I recall seeing a watchtoblog or similar article on it confusing the two too). You'll see on the aventurine wiki that it's one of the only substances where the man-made version might be more famous than the natural version. Quick way to spot - natural aventurine is almost always green in colour. Not sure if the natural stuff is more or less expensive than the man-made stuff as the man-made stuff is in higher demand I believe.

I think in Ireland we might not even have laws on what "made in Ireland" means, nevermind "assembled". Happy to be corrected though - a quick google didn't throw up anything. So assembled *could* cover one turn of the screw to assembling the whole movement prior to casing and so it makes really little sense to put any meaning in it (is my opinion - and why I don't say it, because it adds almost nothing).

Thirdfox

And Mike tells me he might pull the review if further issues are spotted - though I believe having reviewed it throughly now that all the info is correct.

Of course the +-20 seconds he mentions in the review is a minimum accuracy (compared to -20,+40 for Seiko NH35 and +-30 seconds for standard grade ETA 2824 (averaged to +-12seconds over two positions).

Closest comparison of +-20 seconds would be to an elabore grade 2824 in terms of accuracy specification.

Edit: I wonder should it be that I request a view of the proposed text prior to publication - though I'm loathe to think that it would suggest this might impact their journalistic integrity. I'm pretty sure Mike is annoyed by the changes I've requested over the last few days - but equally I don't think the information I presented to him would have led him to believe it is natural aventurine/assembled in Ireland etc. Instead I just mentioned there are two types - and confusion between the two even at the Swiss level - I specicifally mention ny aventurine is made in a kiln (also on the website), and that while it could be argued that I am assembling the watch in Ireland I am not suggesting it is on my website (as a broader point about making it as Irish as possible by using an Irish made strap).

I think it's better to have a review to correct any factual mistakes prior to publication rather than clarifications after. But conscious that some reviewers may fear it would be used to questiin their opinions.

Cienciano

I wouldn't be to bothered about getting onto reviewers over little things tbh. No one is going to sue over the wording of something like that. If I liked the look of the watch, they'll buy it, simple as.

Thirdfox

Here's a 480p sneak peak (unlisted video) of what the next reviewer has planned - super impressive - he also gave permission to share this - I've kept it 480p out of respect to him so he can post up the 1080p version on his page first.

Have to say that this looks much better than the meagre video I mustered up - in fact I think I will ask if I could use this as the promotional video for the Starlight - gives all the key information - aventurine/micro-rotor/height/width in a snappy way.

Much cooler than the diddly Irish music I'm sure Irish boardsies would say too :pac:

banie01

TF, that video is fantastic.
It does a really great job of showing of the dial and the applied indices take on a life of their own as the camera pans.
It looks absolutely mint!

The dial looked good in the 1st review, in this one it looks amazing and puts me in mind of the Lange & Sohne Saxonia aventurine.

It makes the starlight look a really luxury piece.

Thirdfox

A more in-depth answer to a question that some people here and reviewers have asked me (and something I've sent to other reviewers to pre-empt this question):

a. So why hasn’t anyone else used the Hangzhou 5000A? (It has been out for a few years now)

i. I’ve been wondering about this too as I waited impatiently over the years for someone to release something with the 5000A movement in an affordable watch. After pondering this I think the reason is, “because it is more profitable/less risky to go with a Seiko NH35 or ETA2824/SW200”. For a microbrand – if you make one wrong move and release one bum product you might be sunk as a business. It is much more safe to use the tried and tested Seiko NH35a for 200-300 euro watches and ETA2824/SW200 for 400-600 euro watches. Who wants to take a risk of putting in a Chinese movement into a 400 euro watch? Because on a related point – that 550 euro RRP on my website isn’t plucked out of thin air – it was what I calculated that I needed to charge for the Starlight if I were to quit my job and “survive” on profits of the watch. So for the average microbrand where they are reliant on the profits of the brand I don’t think many people are willing to risk releasing a 550 euro watch with a Chinese movement that others haven’t tried before.

ii. As I do have a job and am not reliant on the Starlight to feed my myself I’ve set the price point at 399 euro which I truly consider to be extremely low for what is being offered – all as a way to entice people to try something that they may not be inclined to do so if I had set a price of 550 right out of the gate. Selling the Starlight certainly won’t make me a millionaire – but it would give me funds to develop future Sólás models (the Starlight R&D has been funded completely from my own personal funds). Because of the support of my day job I can afford to “not take a salary” for the 2 years of part time work, and plough a substantial amount of any profits into the future development of Sólás – something not everyone has the luxury of being able to do.

iii. It’s quite clear that if the Starlight is successful – potentially other micro-brands may start using this movement too – but even then – I would argue that at 399 they might see better profits available from other movement combinations. When business is business – people make rational choices as to how best to make profits. For me – I have the luxury of being “irrational” and saying “I want to make an affordable micro-rotor for the general public”.

iv. I can only say that the above isn’t marketing speak – hope fully you might find that reason interesting (or perhaps you have other ideas why it might be the case?)

redlead

Thirdfox wrote: »

I think it's better to have a review to correct any factual mistakes prior to publication rather than clarifications after. But conscious that some reviewers may fear it would be used to questiin their opinions.

I don't think you should be asking them to correct minor mistakes. At the end of the day, it's a third party review and not a press release. There is no way Omega or Breitling are reaching out to YouTubers asking them to correct minute details. Unless it's something major that is giving a negative impression of the watch then just leave it. You've been completely honest and upfront with all information provided so if they make a mistake it is also an honest one. This is especially true when the bigger youtubers look at it. It's great just to get it out there so you don't want to run the risk of annoying them.

Given how honest and upfront you have been throughout the whole process, its disappointing to see something you said blown out of all proportion a couple of pages back. I've really enjoyed following the development of the watch on here which is a unique enough thing to have on a forum. Please continue to do so.

Thirdfox

Could I ask for boardsies' opinion on something – are sponsored posts like https://www.ablogtowatch.com/ablogtowatch-micro-monthly-june-2020/ - worth it in your opinion? This is something new they launched – because when they first wrote back to me saying “wow your watch concept looks really interesting...it’ll be X thousands to do a sponsored article” I was immediately turned off (though understand they are a huge watch site and they announce transparently it is a sponsored post, and most importantly my budget also doesn't allow for thousands on an ad). They’ve come back to me now and asked if I’d be interested in doing this effectively micro-ad at X hundreds not thousands any more.

I’ve seen Kickstarter can really be a numbers game – I’m sure there are at least 391 people in the world who would be delighted to get a micro-rotor for 399 – but how to let them know about it? Hundreds of dollars is more stomach-able then what they were originally asking for in a full article. The micro-monthly is a new thing they’ve launched since I guess they must be feeling the pinch from the pandemic too.

Also – I think running this ad on ABW shouldn’t compromise my ethical point that any reviews my brand takes part in will be unpaid (in money or watch). Just had to turn down a foreign language large-ish reviewer who contacted me because they needed the sample as payment for review. I’ve made a big list of the people I’ve contacted and what their response was – so it’ll be useful to know in the future who to prioritise if I have multiple people who want to get in touch with me . Would people agree with my distinction - this is clearly an "ad" and not a review of the watch - all reviews are unpaid but something like this is clearly an ad right?

It'd eat into potential profits again (which haven't been made yet) - but what do people think? Do you read/look at ablogtowatch/hodinkee etc. or is it all youtubers for people mainly?

Thirdfox

Speaking of mistaking aventurine dials as natural - see this watchbox review - "a quartz...formation" - sounds natural right? :P - same material as in the Starlight - made in kiln too.

You can see it's hard to video correctly - Moser used this expensive (relatively) material because it looks good - but it may not have come across correctly in the video:

Mitch Buchannon

I look at both Hodinkee and ABTW. It would certainly get your watch seen by a lot of readers if they had a piece about it. Obviously the money aspect is a bit off putting.

Thirdfox

Mitch Buchannon wrote: »

I look at both Hodinkee and ABTW. It would certainly get your watch seen by a lot of readers if they had a piece about it. Obviously the money aspect is a bit off putting.

I think a clear ad is a clear ad - text and photo would be provided entirely by myself. They would have no editorial input into it (besides doing QC in terms of not promoting a fraudster [I would hope!])

I also want to raise it here just so people can give their views on whether this would on my brand's reputation negatively - the worst thing would be a bigger "assembled" issue. I personally think advertising has its uses too - if you have a good product (which I do believe in) - you need people to notice it.

Currently at 145 followers (of course without the "big hitters" publishing their reviews yet) - which maybe translates into 40 backers? That is a far way off the minimum of 200 backers (where no profits are made) and what I would have considered as an realistically do-able amount at 300+.

If a few hundred (well closer to a thousand :P) dollars will get 50 more backers then it's a "win" in terms of advertising.

As in - if I get to 200 backers I'll do the project - not getting a penny from it will be a little disappointing - so would be better to spend a few hundred now if I believe people will be interested in getting a "good thing"

More thoughts on this is very welcome - asap if possible since they only have 4 slots per month so if I wanted August I have no idea if there's space available still. Thanks guys!

edit: ABTW claim 1 million views per month so it "should" be a substantial bump in viewer numbers if I go down an ad route.

SnowyMay

I think you should do it TF.

Advertising is advertising, and is a necessary weevil. You’re not saying that this is some unbiased review.

As they say, you can’t come this far without going further!!

MAJJ

I also think you should do it. Not many products succeed without it. Your moral compass is sound and I think you already know it's the right thing as you know it's an add not an independent review.

dakar

I’ll ask the question that’s been niggling at me. I have the Kickstarter fear.

Say you get 150 backers, not enough for you to reasonably proceed. You decide not to go ahead with it, which is fair enough. What happens the 150 backers’ money?

I haven’t kept up with KS lately, but I remember being quite interested in some coffee and photography gizmos back in the day which disappeared into vapour along with the money.

Can that still happen?

EDIT: Google was my friend, so backers cards don’t get charged until the project is funded? That puts my mind at ease. Carry on

Thirdfox

dakar wrote: »

I’ll ask the question that’s been niggling at me. I have the Kickstarter fear.

Say you get 150 backers, not enough for you to reasonably proceed. You decide not to go ahead with it, which is fair enough. What happens the 150 backers’ money?

I haven’t kept up with KS lately, but I remember being quite interested in some coffee and photography gizmos back in the day which disappeared into vapour along with the money.

Can that still happen?

Here's a good FAQ from Kickstarter: https://help.kickstarter.com/hc/en-us/categories/115000499033-Backer-questions

But to answer you directly - you give over your card details and it only gets charged if the goal is met. So you never get charged if it only gets to 75% of goal. From what I understand this is different from Indiegogo which charges at time of making the "backing".

The Kickstarter fear stems mostly from project managers over-promising ("LCD projector on your wrist for $100!") or more insidiously changing things as project unfolds - I would point to Meccanie Vechanzise (sic) - they promised ETA GMT movements watches...used it in all their ads, promotions etc. and then switched to Sellita "equivalents" something like a month before shipping - but at least they still delivered something - and sorta equivalent - but I would suspect their profit motives in using a cheaper movement (considering some people specifically backed it for that movement and they didn't seem to be giving refunds to people).

On that refund thing - my understanding is that backers are backing projects "with the knowledge" that the projects might fail to materialise - it's part of the risk/reward of Kickstarter - you're not paying 550-700 to get the watch in the box in the store and walk out. KS T&Cs require creators to try their best to deliver what was promised.

So always do good due diligence on any projects you are interested in - ask questions of the creators - see do they have reasonable/logical plans, contingencies etc.?

For example - I had stated that I was likely to be doing QC in person in China once the watches come in - well due to Covid-19 that's looking uncertain. Instead I've ordered in a timegrapher as a precaution of me not being able to travel to Guangzhou later this year. This way I'll be able to inspect the watches once it gets to me in Ireland - so does that sound like a good/reasonable contingency plan etc.?

At least on one point people don't need to worry - the amount I get from this project 1) is limited - I'm limiting it to 391 backers for tax reasons - so I couldn't "run off with 20 million euro" even if I wanted to and 2) my day job is as a lawyer in a top law firm in Ireland - it's not a secret, just look up linkedin - I think that should give people plenty of comfort that I have a pretty important reputation to preserve and would never try to con anyone. Unexpected problems may occur - but due to their nature of being "unexpected" I can only try and build in safety margins and hope to deal with them in a clear and transparent way if/when they occur.

And Kickstarter isn't for everyone that's for sure - if for example (as I've seen on the Hamtun H2 thread) someone backed a watch because they wanted to wear that watch for their wedding at X date - it might be worth considering if maybe getting a pre-made product for time-critical scenarios is better. I'm going to try and keep as close to my delivery timetable as possible but (reasonable) delays may be (reasonably) expected. Again, from my experience as a backer for the Hamtun H2 - I think as long as people are given clear information (or even if the information is that "currently it is unclear") then most people will be understanding of the nature of this kind of backing.

Thirdfox

I did put where my money where my mouth was and asked Roberto if I could use the video with his permission to replace the current promotional video I have. His is much "slicker" and professional.

As a result of using this (and asking for some modifications made to the text of the video) I felt that a small gratuity should be paid to him for such use - €50 - and I consider it completely this to be completely separate to the review he's doing independently of amending his video for my commercial use. But wanted to disclose this in full too. As an enthusiast photographer I'd like to think I can spot professional work - and I also don't think it's wrong that if a reviewer then offers these photos/videos for use freely without conditions that I can express my gratitude with a small payment.

Separate disclosure - Relative-time whose photos I shared a few posts back also just sent me the photos he took for free use without any conditions - I thought it only fair that I sent him a small unprompted payment too (and stated that if he felt uncomfortable about this he is very welcome to pass it on to charity etc.)

dakar

Thank you, Google served me well while you were typing, however it is good to have clarification. I suspect it was Indiegogo that left those bad impressions.

I was a bit on the fence until I saw the video reviews, but I’m a convert now (font notwithstanding, and even with that, I appreciate that there is a reason behind your choice).

Hope it goes well for you.

Thirdfox

dakar wrote: »

Thank you, Google served me well while you were typing, however it is good to have clarification. I suspect it was Indiegogo that left those bad impressions.

I was a bit on the fence until I saw the video reviews, but I’m a convert now (font notwithstanding, and even with that, I appreciate that there is a reason behind your choice).

Hope it goes well for you.

There are lots of horror stories on Kickstarter too - just like with buying/selling watches - you'll need to "buy the seller" - and see if they've got a good plan or not.

On video reviews I think the video from Shane (Relative-time) *should* provide quite a few converts - he is a dedicated large (18k+ subscriber) watch reviewer and he truthfully has been impressed with the watch from my discussions with him (or at least that was my impression!) His subscribers and viewers should be primarily watch enthusiasts too.

On the font front - here is what the final expected font/dial/caseback will look like:


So thanks to David's lovely wife who suggested EB Garamond - that is my "serious" font - for the informational text (bottom of dial and caseback). The Sólás logo has been pushed back closer together to try and capture more of the calligraphic feel and the caseback also uses Garamond. Due to the switch in font the caseback size was increased but it was felt that there were still too much empty space so we carried over the rotor and crown weave design to intersperse between the words.

If you hate this font - :pac: - apologies but I don't think any more changes will be happening. We'll see soon enough in around 2-3 weeks time when the actual production watches come out with this design.

dakar

Thirdfox wrote: »

If you hate this font -

On the contrary, for me, all the changes are positive.

fat bloke

Ditto. Looks great.

micks_address

Can I ask for the Kickstarter link?