Budget 2020: VRT on used imports

WacoKid

The rhetoric from the Gov and Irish motors dealers seems to be the UK is dumping its 'unwanted imports' on us...and we must charge our own consumers to discourage this awful practice and stop it immediately for the good our children.

The cynic in me sees it more as a way of restricting the selection the Irish consumer has by cutting off the UK, thus driving us into the arms of car dealers in Ireland, where VRT is a greater take for the Gov. Win/win for everyone except the consumer as we will be forced to fork out for new cars when there is ample used selection out there that would more than do the job.

The price of cars in Ireland, along with their basic specification, means the Irish consumer is shopping abroad for a better product.

UK cars are ending up in Ireland because the Irish consumer wants to buy them, due to the better price and spec they offer...not because the UK has a strategy to use Ireland as a breakers yard!

gussieg

Exactly my thoughts...and still no further work in making alternatives any more cost effective for us. As for car insurance, mine is due for renewal in 2 weeks, I'd like to gamble and wait til after Brexit/no Brexit to renew, as at the moment only finding one half decent quote with a 10 year plus NCD , nopoints/penalties, crossed fingers, I would so love to run an electric vehicle, or at least one ten years younger, but so far I'm not going to beat myself up for the 1 litres failings. All good come to those who wait....?

Marcusm

Taht’s All true; however, the shift to petrol in new car sales is not refelected in second hand imports. The proposal the Dept floated in July was a NOX tax based on mg/km using V5 data and/or highest applicable for Euro4/5/6 if not stated. Proposal was for upwards of €2k charge on a Euro4 diesel meaning pre 2011 registrations.

WacoKid

Marcusm wrote: »

Taht’s All true; however, the shift to petrol in new car sales is not refelected in second hand imports. The proposal the Dept floated in July was a NOX tax based on mg/km using V5 data and/or highest applicable for Euro4/5/6 if not stated. Proposal was for upwards of €2k charge on a Euro4 diesel meaning pre 2011 registrations.

Thanks Marcusm, to confirm any uplift in VRT on used imports from the UK is only for EURO4 (pre 2011) cars, or EURO5/6 mays also get hit, albeit at a lower rate?

Marcusm

WacoKid wrote: »

Thanks Marcusm, to confirm any uplift in VRT on used imports from the UK is only for EURO4 (pre 2011) cars, or EURO5/6 mays also get hit, albeit at a lower rate?

The papers included proposals that cars registered after a future date (whether new or secondhand imports) would attract a NOX element to VRT. That included sample calculations for Euro 4-6. Those papers were issued in July and the feedback to them will inform the announcements next week. I think it’s fair to assume that, if implemented, it will apply to all cars newly registered as to do otherwise would impinge on freedom of movement of goods, ie second hand imports could not be unfairly targeted.

Atlantic Dawn

Without checking for dpf removals and measuring diesel emissions at NCT the whole clean air buzz is dead.

adunis

It's all academic if they crash out it won't be remotely cost effective to import from outside the EU,no matter how low sterling goes.
Price,+shipping travel expenses etc,then vat on that then customs duty then vrt on top and then nox tax.

Atlantic Dawn

adunis wrote: »

It's all academic if they crash out it won't be remotely cost effective to import from outside the EU,no matter how low sterling goes.
Price,+shipping travel expenses etc,then vat on that then customs duty then vrt on top and then nox tax.

Don't think that's entirely true, there should still be plenty of cars worth importing in, if you look at the amount of hybrids and low sized petrols imported from Japan the last 5 years or so there's thousands coming in and they would be subject to the very same plus around a grand in shipping costs on top.

MrMusician18

https://www.lobbying.ie/return/51078/society-of-the-irish-motor-industry

How good of SIMI to bring their environmental concerns to the Minister.:rolleyes:

Quite simply, a tax specifically on used imports is designed to hobble grey imports which are depressing the local Irish market (the way a single market is meant to actually work btw).

Old diesel

The Irish car trade hasn't a problem with UK imports per se.

What it has a problem with is people going over to the UK and buying their car themselves.

That's costing the Irish trade money because it's harder to sell cars as less buyers in the market.

We know there isn't an inherent dislike of UK imports in the Irish trade because the Irish trade itself happily deals in UK imports itself when it suits.

Irish trade wants you to pay top dollar for an Audi A6 rather then save by buying in UK.

Brexit is obviously a barrier to UK imports in short term BUT if you are the motor trade planning your future.

Then you need to plan for no deal being possibly not a long term situation.

Hence cracking down on UK imports with some new non Brexit rules.

bazz26

The Irish motor trade or SIMI want their bread buttered on both sides. They want to value your trade-in at UK prices but want to sell you their car at inflated Irish prices. They then whinge to and lobby the Government when the consumer doesn't play ball and seeks better value across the Irish Sea.

Its similar to the minimum alcohol pricing they are bringing in. Lobby groups like the Vintners' Federation complaining that supermarkets selling cheap booze are taking their members livelihoods yet they keep increasing the price of their drink regularly instead of reducing it to stay competitive. Government wilts and then introduces minimum pricing in the name of reducing binge drinking to appease them.

S.G.M.

Excuse my ignorance but how is southern cars have poorer spec? Are dealers here just not selling as good a car?

bazz26

Better speced new cars attracted more tax here which raised the list price of them. In turn people went for the cheaper lower speced versions.

S.G.M.

bazz26 wrote: »

Better speced new cars attracted more tax here which raised the list price of them. In turn people went for the cheaper lower speced versions.

Ah ok. So would it be wise to look in the north for a new car or will the budget now mess that up coupled with Brexit.

bazz26

Nobody knows for sure what way Brexit will work out regarding importing used cars. If they crash out without a deal then you could be stung for VAT as well as VRT on an imported used car which would make it more expensive to import.

If you are ready to buy then I'd tend to do it before the end of this month.

adunis

Vat vrt and customs duty

Eric Cartman

S.G.M. wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but how is southern cars have poorer spec? Are dealers here just not selling as good a car?

irish people in general dom't even check the options list , options cost more because of vrt and as a nation we're more concerned about the price and picking colours that 'hide the dirt/scratches' than the UK are.

finding an actual fully loaded (all options , all features, all switches filled) model of any car originally bought in ireland is a hard art.

a new e class mercedes before 2015 , heated seats were a 250-350 euro option depending on the year and a nice feature to have - I have never seen an original irish plated e class in that era with heated seats, only the imports.

S.G.M.

What if you buy in the North and then there is a problem with the car after Brexit at the end of the month? Would that cause issues?

WacoKid

Does anyone know will any changes to VRT come into effect straight away or on Jan 1st 2020?

Marcusm

WacoKid wrote: »

Does anyone know will any changes to VRT come into effect straight away or on Jan 1st 2020?

It was suggested by Do Finance that 6 months or more notification would be given to allow for repricing etc. I would not expect it to change until July or later.

astrofool

Eric Cartman wrote: »

irish people in general dom't even check the options list , options cost more because of vrt and as a nation we're more concerned about the price and picking colours that 'hide the dirt/scratches' than the UK are.

finding an actual fully loaded (all options , all features, all switches filled) model of any car originally bought in ireland is a hard art.

a new e class mercedes before 2015 , heated seats were a 250-350 euro option depending on the year and a nice feature to have - I have never seen an original irish plated e class in that era with heated seats, only the imports.

Not just that, the dealers wouldn't buy in any stock with it, so if you wanted the car and that relatively simple option, it was a 6 month wait. There's some very odd spec Merc's around dealers if you take a look (BMW seem to be a bit more normal). The "Irish" brochures then spend 75% of the pages listing features that nobody in Ireland buys.

Leonard Hofstadter

astrofool wrote: »

Not just that, the dealers wouldn't buy in any stock with it, so if you wanted the car and that relatively simple option, it was a 6 month wait. There's some very odd spec Merc's around dealers if you take a look (BMW seem to be a bit more normal). The "Irish" brochures then spend 75% of the pages listing features that nobody in Ireland buys.

To be fair the spec on Irish cars is way better than it used to be but many buyers just go for the smallest possible engine still, it's rare enough you'd see a 5 series with a six cylinder engine for example, everyone will just buy the 520d instead.

colm_mcm

Meh, your standard 520d these days does 0-60 the same as an e39 530i, and has far better mid range ability.
The good old days of 6 cylinder 5 series in Ireland was really just 2.0s that could be outrun by a 1.8 Avensis.
The reality is that the 20d engine is all the engine most people could need. I’m not one bit surprised people aren’t stumping up the 13 grand of guaranteed depreciation to go from 520d to 530d.

WacoKid

"The 1% diesel surcharge introduced last year is being replaced with a nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions-based charge.
This surcharge will apply to all passenger cars registering for the first time in the State from 1 January 2020.

The charge will apply on a euro (€) per milligram/kilometre basis, with the rate increasing in line with the level of nitrogen oxide emitted. "

colm_mcm

WacoKid wrote: »

"The 1% diesel surcharge introduced last year is being replaced with a nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions-based charge.
This surcharge will apply to all passenger cars registering for the first time in the State from 1 January 2020.

The charge will apply on a euro (€) per milligram/kilometre basis, with the rate increasing in line with the level of nitrogen oxide emitted. "

That’s interesting for VW cars.

terrydel

WacoKid wrote: »

The rhetoric from the Gov and Irish motors dealers seems to be the UK is dumping its 'unwanted imports' on us...and we must charge our own consumers to discourage this awful practice and stop it immediately for the good our children.

The cynic in me sees it more as a way of restricting the selection the Irish consumer has by cutting off the UK, thus driving us into the arms of car dealers in Ireland, where VRT is a greater take for the Gov. Win/win for everyone except the consumer as we will be forced to fork out for new cars when there is ample used selection out there that would more than do the job.

The price of cars in Ireland, along with their basic specification, means the Irish consumer is shopping abroad for a better product.

UK cars are ending up in Ireland because the Irish consumer wants to buy them, due to the better price and spec they offer...not because the UK has a strategy to use Ireland as a breakers yard!

The like to preach about a common market except when it suits them.

terrydel

MrMusician18 wrote: »

https://www.lobbying.ie/return/51078/society-of-the-irish-motor-industry

How good of SIMI to bring their environmental concerns to the Minister.:rolleyes:

Quite simply, a tax specifically on used imports is designed to hobble grey imports which are depressing the local Irish market (the way a single market is meant to actually work btw).

Love the way dealers market their simi membership as some kind of comfort blanket to the customer, when all it is is a lobbying group for their interests.

terrydel

terrydel wrote: »

The like to preach about a common market except when it suits them.

Big time. the whole VRT thing is a racket that should be banned.

A 2016 A6, S-Line, 2.0TDI Ultra Black Edition can be bought for £15,750 with 23,000 miles on it (or 37,000 KM). That's €17,526 by today's transferwise rates. Add in ferry (€150), Hotel (€100), fuel (€100) and you're up to €17,900 roughly.

The VRT on the above is:


Ignoring the fact that this is criminally high, for a second, it brings the total outlay, door-to-door to €22,876.

The cheapest 2.0 TDI S-Line black edition version on carzone currently is €420 cheaper, but it has 99,420 miles on the clock which is 4 times the mileage of the UK one.

And that's the cheapest.

If you look for one around the same mileage, the price jumps to €26,950.

TL;DR - That's a saving of just over €4,000. If VRT wasn't a factor, you'd be saving €9,000. That's like they're throwing in a second car as a bonus., FFS.

WacoKid

I did a quick comparison today on a 2018 BMW 530i M Sport with about 5,000 miles.

Including all travel, VRT etc., from the UK it was about €38-39k. The ones for sale on Carzone.ie are approx. €46-47k.

How much of that is VRT.....€10,000+ ?

terrydel

WacoKid wrote: »

I did a quick comparison today on a 2018 BMW 530i M Sport with about 5,000 miles.

Including all travel, VRT etc., from the UK it was about €38-39k. The ones for sale on Carzone.ie are approx. €46-47k.

So basically the lobbyists have done their job, and the motor industry here has got a serious leg up. No offence to the motor industry, but its a tiny industry and really should be looking after itself, not being effectively subsidised by the state. If only homeless people had the same lobby group, they might do something about the housing crisis.

WacoKid

Deleted User wrote: »

How much of that is VRT.....€10,000+ ?

VRT was approx. €7,800.

WacoKid

terrydel wrote: »

So basically the lobbyists have done their job, and the motor industry here has got a serious leg up. No offence to the motor industry, but its a tiny industry and really should be looking after itself, not being effectively subsidised by the state. If only homeless people had the same lobby group, they might do something about the housing crisis.

As I read it the Gov have grasped the whole 'cleaner environment' nonsense (in the context of Co2 emitting Irish cars) and added a NOx tax to all cars registered after Jan 1st 2020.

This plays out as:

• The Gov get additional tax from all cars being registered (new, used)
• The gap between Irish and UK prices has been narrowed (by increasing second hand imports from the UK), making it less attractive to purchase a second hand car in UK, increasing the chance of the consumer paying over the odds in Ireland....or in other words, throwing SIMI a bone.

KCross

WacoKid wrote: »

As I read it the Gov have grasped the whole 'cleaner environment' nonsense (in the context of Co2 emitting Irish cars) and added a NOx tax to all cars registered after Jan 1st 2020.

This plays out as:

• The Gov get additional tax from all cars being registered (new, used)
• The gap between Irish and UK prices has been narrowed (by increasing second hand imports from the UK), making it less attractive to purchase a second hand car in UK, increasing the chance of the consumer paying over the odds in Ireland....or in other words, throwing SIMI a bone.

My interpretation is that they want you to buy a less polluting car. You can still go to the UK for your import just pick one that doesnt have a bad NOx figure and you should be fine.... which is the whole point of the tax (encourage you to think about emissions).

If you decide to go ahead and buy a high polluter anyway then you pays your money and be happy with your decision. Its only hundreds anyway, not thousands, so the savings should still be there (notwithstanding what Brexit could bring in relation to tarrifs).

WacoKid

KCross wrote: »

My interpretation is that they want you to buy a less polluting car. You can still go to the UK for your import just pick one that doesnt have a bad NOx figure and you should be fine.... which is the whole point of the tax (encourage you to think about emissions).

If you decide to go ahead and buy a high polluter anyway then you pays your money and be happy with your decision.

...but its ok to buy the same used high polluter off an Irish forecourt instead, which has not been hit with this tax?

If they were serious then they would have brought in the tax for any car being re-registered in Ireland also (i.e. changing ownership within Rep. of Ireland).

KCross

WacoKid wrote: »

...but its ok to buy the same used high polluter off an Irish forecourt instead, which has not been hit with this tax?

If they were serious then they would have brought in the tax for any car being re-registered in Ireland also (i.e. changing ownership within Rep. of Ireland).

I suppose you could do that but it would be very messy to collect the money in that case. They have the systems in place to collect VRT already.

Collecting a new tax on change of ownership would be a new overhead and I think the idea is to reduce the number of "new" bad polluters entering our roads. An existing car that is here already will disappear over time. If 100k used imports continue we need to ensure they are not the bad polluters.

Atlantic Dawn

Is there a NOx figure on current logbooks?

WacoKid

KCross wrote: »

...Collecting a new tax on change of ownership would be a new overhead.

Correct..but what they have done by not introducing this NOx across the board is increased the chances of the SIMI selling a car by removing some of the savings the Irish consumer could make by shopping in an 'open market'...or in other words trying to restrict competition from within the EU trade area.

KCross

WacoKid wrote: »

Correct..but what they have done by not introducing this NOx across the board is increased the chances of the SIMI selling a car by removing some of the savings the Irish consumer could make by shopping in an 'open market'...or in other words trying to restrict competition from within the EU trade area.

Indeed, but thats the underlying nature of VRT anyway. You can rail against the machine if you wish but that aint going away!

As I said, go to the UK and just pick one with low NOx and you'll still get your savings.

And its also not an entirely new tax since it replaces the 1% surcharge from last years budget.

WacoKid

KCross wrote: »

Indeed, but thats the underlying nature of VRT anyway. You can rail against the machine if you wish but that aint go away!

As I said, go to the UK and just pick one with low NOx and you'll still get your savings.

Hi KCross, not ranting at you directly. I'm suppose I'm just playing out the cynic voice in my head that is telling me our Gov are looking to restrict the Irish consumers choice when we are supposed to be in the European Union' free trade area.

Maybe it is a correct and appropriate tax and I just need to build a bridge

So for the Joe Soap purchasers out there that think Nox is something out of a Fast and Furious film, pretty much, if you want to import a car now, from the UK, you effectively have to just make sure it's compliant with London's Ultra Low Emmissions Zone area/charge?

celtic_oz

Is vrt still based on co2 but now includes a nox surcharge ? Or just nox now?

KCross

celtic_oz wrote: »

Is vrt still based on co2 but now includes a nox surcharge ? Or just nox now?

NOx on top of existing CO2 figure because the figures they are talking about applying to the NOx tax is in the hundreds, not thousands, so it wouldnt be enough to replace whats already in the existing VRT tax.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

So for the Joe Soap purchasers out there that think Nox is something out of a Fast and Furious film, pretty much, if you want to import a car now, from the UK, you effectively have to just make sure it's compliant with London's Ultra Low Emmissions Zone area/charge?

If you want to keep the NOx tax down then yes, but if you are buying a car for, say €20k+, the extra €500-€1000 on NOx tax isnt going to be a deal breaker if you are still saving over Irish prices or getting the spec you want.

Where its going to hurt most is someone bringing in an older, cheaper car as the NOx tax is emissions based not based on what the car is worth so it will disproportionally hit the older cars.... which is the point of the tax (stop us buying UK's old stock)

AMKC

I think its a good idea. They should have put a tax on importing cars from the UK to to make the car the same price or higher than the price you would pay here. Whats wrong with supporting your own country and paying the taxes to the country that you live in instead of trying to avoid that? If you are not happy with buying in your own country then go feck off and live in whatever country you are buying that car from. That's my opinion and what I think anyway.

bazz26

AMKC wrote: »

I think its a good idea. They should have put a tax on importing cars from the UK to to make the car the same price or higher than the price you would pay here. Whats wrong with supporting your own country and paying the taxes to the country that you live in instead of trying to avoid that? If you are not happy with buying in your own country then go feck off and live in whatever country you are buying that car from. That's my opinion and what I think anyway.

Lol, I guess you don't buy anything from abroad then, no amazon account or similar?

Motorists already pay plenty of tax here and the Government gets plenty of VRT from imports too so I really don't see where you get this notion that paying more tax by buying at home is supporting your own country unless I'm giving you too much credit and your just trolling? Tax collected that continues to be squandered on inefficient public services and disastrous overspending projects. How about the Government start supporting the taxpayer for once by encouraging them to spend their money at home instead of having to seek better value abroad where they are not taxed to death?

dodzy

AMKC wrote: »

I think its a good idea. They should have put a tax on importing cars from the UK to to make the car the same price or higher than the price you would pay here. Whats wrong with supporting your own country and paying the taxes to the country that you live in instead of trying to avoid that? If you are not happy with buying in your own country then go feck off and live in whatever country you are buying that car from. That's my opinion and what I think anyway.

Good morning troll

Old diesel

AMKC wrote: »

I think its a good idea. They should have put a tax on importing cars from the UK to to make the car the same price or higher than the price you would pay here. Whats wrong with supporting your own country and paying the taxes to the country that you live in instead of trying to avoid that? If you are not happy with buying in your own country then go feck off and live in whatever country you are buying that car from. That's my opinion and what I think anyway.

If you've got spare money to feed SIMI members without question then good for you...

Most people don't and just want to get the best car within a budget.

The local SIMI dealer will just add 1500 euro onto a pile of poo Corolla 1.4 diesel or Kia-ndai 1.7 diesel SUV.

This importing from Uk ultimately benefited all car buyers even those that stay at home.

If all buyers that flew to UK joined buyers at local SIMI dealers then prices go up at said SIMI dealer.

colm_mcm

Would be interesting to see if those with a VRT exemption will have to pay this tax?

Prezatch

Anyone know where Nox values for car models are listed?


EDIT: Found:

https://carfueldata.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/ - Irish times said this would be most reliable, but currently missing data on Nox
http://www.emissionsfinder.com/ - has Nox data but maybe not that reliable!

According to some figures here there isn't much to be worrying about really: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-6733271/Are-diesel-cars-really-dirty-Tests-reveal-models-produce-zero-NOx-emissions.html

MrMusician18

AMKC wrote: »

I think its a good idea. They should have put a tax on importing cars from the UK to to make the car the same price or higher than the price you would pay here. Whats wrong with supporting your own country and paying the taxes to the country that you live in instead of trying to avoid that? If you are not happy with buying in your own country then go feck off and live in whatever country you are buying that car from. That's my opinion and what I think anyway.

We don't have an indigenous car industry, we have car retailers that import cars.

The Irish retail network adds little or no value in the chain so why should an individual have to reward that by buying at an inflated price? There single market promised us free and fair competition, yet we have a government happy to distort the market.