Alberto Salazar banned for 4 years

Sinbad_NI

is_that_so wrote: »

Hassan? Sounds like you didn't need much convincing if the views of a clearly still traumatised individual sways you.

No Radcliffe.

Although I don't feel at all sorry for Hassan, she knew what she was getting into when she made the decision to go work with Salazar's crew.

KSU

walshb wrote: »

Nike and their CEO seem to be quite adamant that Salazar is clean and not a cheat. They have obviously conducted a thorough enough investigation here...huge corporate brand...

This one is far from cut and dried!

The same brand where the director of athletics threatened to kill the original whistleblower?

https://www.letsrun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Full-John-Capriotti-Danny-Mackey-Police-Report.pdf

walshb

KSU wrote: »

The same brand where the director of athletics threatened to kill the original whistleblower?

https://www.letsrun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Full-John-Capriotti-Danny-Mackey-Police-Report.pdf

Well, if this director is a Nike employee, then yes, the same brand!

Marty Xavier

walshb wrote: »

Nike and their CEO seem to be quite adamant that Salazar is clean and not a cheat. They have obviously conducted a thorough enough investigation here...huge corporate brand...

This one is far from cut and dried!

I wouldn't be surprised if Nike are more involved with Salazar than we think.

Ceepo

Marty Xavier wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if Nike are more involved with Salazar than we think.

In what way.
We know that the CEO was send a letter regarding the administration of L-C.. so the ceo for one knew what was going on

walshb

Marty Xavier wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if Nike are more involved with Salazar than we think.

They are hugely involved, and that is why maybe they believe him to be honest and not a cheat.

Nike are a collection of people

USADA are a collection of people.

Neither has a monopoly on integrity.....

Maybe Nike believe in Salazar to be clean and honest because he is....

Maybe USADA want to get him any which way...

This will probably come down to levels. Salazar may well be, what some are claiming, an envelope pusher, and in pushing the envelope so far, he is bordering on rule breaking. But a deliberate PED cheat?

Still waiting for the tests to show that his NOP athletes are actually cheats....

KSU

walshb wrote: »

Still waiting for the tests to show that his NOP athletes are actually cheats....

Albeit before the NOP branding

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/33096367

Murph_D

Classic Trumpian denial of facts. I think guys like Salazar just hope people are so overwhelmed with information that they won’t question the obvious rewriting of history. Or else they don’t care and just try to claim the ‘mainstream media’ are just making sh@t up.

Ceepo

walshb wrote: »

They are hugely involved, and that is why maybe they believe him to be honest and not a cheat.

Nike are a collection of people

USADA are a collection of people.

Neither has a monopoly on integrity.....

Maybe Nike believe in Salazar to be clean and honest because he is....

Maybe USADA want to get him any which way...

This will probably come down to levels. Salazar may well be, what some are claiming, an envelope pusher, and in pushing the envelope so far, he is bordering on rule breaking. But a deliberate PED cheat?

Still waiting for the tests to show that his NOP athletes are actually cheats....

Why would they want to get him any which way.. do you think they are taking it personally.. as opposed to his dodgy practice..


https://www.flotrack.org/articles/5065692-report-alberto-salazars-off-label-supplements-put-nop-athletes-at-risk

Sinbad_NI

walshb wrote: »

They are hugely involved, and that is why maybe they believe him to be honest and not a cheat.

Nike are a collection of people

USADA are a collection of people.

Neither has a monopoly on integrity.....

Maybe Nike believe in Salazar to be clean and honest because he is....

Maybe USADA want to get him any which way...

This will probably come down to levels. Salazar may well be, what some are claiming, an envelope pusher, and in pushing the envelope so far, he is bordering on rule breaking. But a deliberate PED cheat?

Still waiting for the tests to show that his NOP athletes are actually cheats....

To be fair Nike have an awful record backing dopers.
I'd have a hell of a lot more faith in USADA. Maybe not perfect but compared to Nike!!! Get real.

Why do you need to see tests? Testing process is absolute rubbish and will never get ahead of the cheats. Athletes can get away with so much if they know when to take it, how much of what to take when etc. That's exactly what the coaches and doctors bring to the table unfortunately.

WADA code doesn't specify there must be a positive test, or do you need more proof than the rest of the world.

Sinbad_NI

Guess we should also discuss the facts of the case rather than conjecture, personal thoughts, mindsets, etc.

https://www.usada.org/wp-content/uploads/Salazar-AAA-Decision-1.pdf

Ross Tucker's podcast linked in this thread is also a great resource to summarise.

Checkmate19

Sure lance only got caught because he came back. Marion jones was done by fbi. Nike are going to back him all the way. They are not going not back him. They are doubling down. No other way. People are either so naive or stupid when it comes to drugs in sport. Nobody will come clean on the truth till they are forced. Lance was looking at time due to us postal funds. Marion jones lied under oath so she had to come clean. Peds epo etc are rife. Salazar is corrupt and those athletes that worked with him has massive questions to answer.

average_runner

walshb wrote: »

They are hugely involved, and that is why maybe they believe him to be honest and not a cheat.

Nike are a collection of people

USADA are a collection of people.

Neither has a monopoly on integrity.....

Maybe Nike believe in Salazar to be clean and honest because he is....

Maybe USADA want to get him any which way...

This will probably come down to levels. Salazar may well be, what some are claiming, an envelope pusher, and in pushing the envelope so far, he is bordering on rule breaking. But a deliberate PED cheat?

Still waiting for the tests to show that his NOP athletes are actually cheats....

Same way Nike believe Lance was clean and trained at their centre:rolleyes:

walshb

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

WADA code doesn't specify there must be a positive test, or do you need more proof than the rest of the world.

That’s exactly the point I made about levels here.

Rule breaking...

Salazar looks like has fallen afoul of the rules.

I am more wondering how many of his athletes actually ingested into their bodies, illegal/rule breaking PEDs...

I believe Mo, for example. He is likely clean; his wrong was his associating himself with a man who had suspicions..

Far too many want to jump from Salazar being a rule breaker, to all his athletes being PED users, with or without evidence to verify this..

Sinbad_NI

walshb wrote: »

That’s exactly the point I made about levels here.

Rule breaking...

Salazar looks like has fallen afoul of the rules.

I am more wondering how many of his athletes actually ingested into their bodies, illegal/rule breaking PEDs...

I believe Mo, for example. He is likely clean; his wrong was his associating himself with a man who had suspicions..

Far too many want to jump from Salazar being a rule breaker, to all his athletes being PED users, with or without evidence to verify this..

That's why we need whistleblowers unfortunately.
Testing is so crap that the usual defense of "I never tested positive" is absolutely worthless. These guys know how to avoid testing positive like we know how to make a cup of tea.
We'll likely never get more definitive proof, especially as the years tick by.

For me the fact that Mo and the rest all back up Salazar instead of disassociating themselves from him, or more importantly, staying there for years in the first place is a sign of guilt.
You see it differently and hey ho enjoy your world. But all I'll say is educate yourself about how **** the tests are, how easy they're to pass, how rife doping is, how much money is to be made, how authorities try to hush it up instead of tackling it and maybe you're view will be less white and more black.

walshb

You are really overstating this testing is abysmal angle..

If it was half as abysmal as you make out, then there would be next to nobody failing tests...

And, even if true, that doesn’t mean ALL are taking advantage of the abysmal testing to cheat..

Sinbad_NI

walshb wrote: »

You are really overstating this testing is abysmal angle..

If it was half as abysmal as you make out, then there would be next to nobody failing tests...

And, even if true, that doesn’t mean ALL are taking advantage of the abysmal testing to cheat..

My god man, read any book about it. I'd suggest Tyler Hamilton's but take your pick.

The fact that the abysmal tests are catching anyone is frightening in as much as how much goes undetected.

Here's an article from a few years back with an anonymous survey back in 2011... that the IAAF tried to stop getting published. What does that tell you about their will to clean up sport.
57% admitted to doping in the previous 12 months. Only 1-2% caught

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2017/aug/29/sport-doping-study-revealing-wider-usage-published-after-scandalous-delay

Ceepo

walshb wrote: »

Maybe Nike believe in Salazar to be clean and honest because he is....

Because he is???? Really??.
There seems to be enough evidence out there to say different.....

If a scenario ever arose that you had a promising young son or daughter would you let them train under Salazar...

Torsevt

Checkmate19 wrote: »

Sure lance only got caught because he came back. Marion jones was done by fbi. Nike are going to back him all the way. They are not going not back him. They are doubling down. No other way. People are either so naive or stupid when it comes to drugs in sport. Nobody will come clean on the truth till they are forced. Lance was looking at time due to us postal funds. Marion jones lied under oath so she had to come clean. Peds epo etc are rife. Salazar is corrupt and those athletes that worked with him has massive questions to answer.

Didn't Marion Jones get cleared of some false epo positive and then got busted later, of course she was doped all along

Tbh I've got mixed feelings about Alberto in comparison to someone like Jama Aden , it feels horrible to say it but Alberto wasn't handing out Epo and GH like smarties

Ceepo

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

My god man, read any book about it. I'd suggest Tyler Hamilton's but take your pick.

The fact that the abysmal tests are catching anyone is frightening in as much as how much goes undetected.

Here's an article from a few years back with an anonymous survey back in 2011... that the IAAF tried to stop getting published. What does that tell you about their will to clean up sport.
57% admitted to doping in the previous 12 months. Only 1-2% caught

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2017/aug/29/sport-doping-study-revealing-wider-usage-published-after-scandalous-delay

There plenty of information out there on how easy it is to evade testing positive. Just watch Icarus or Mark Dalys documentary on micro dosing. Or a good quote from the book you mentioned."only the fools get caught"

You do realise that there is none so blind than them that dont want to see..

I'd agree 100% about abysmal testing, however it does actually catch a few so it mightn't be a great system its still better than none.

Sinbad_NI

Ceepo wrote: »

There plenty of information out there on how easy it is to evade testing positive. Just watch Icarus or Mark Dalys documentary on micro dosing. Or a good quote from the book you mentioned."only the fools get caught"

You do realise that there is none so blind than them that dont want to see..

I'd agree 100% about abysmal testing, however it does actually catch a few so it mightn't be a great system its still better than none.

Icarus is good yeah. Depressing, but good.

Testing wise, I used to agree.
Now I'm coming to the conclusion more and more that's it's just a tool to allow a defense for athletes to say they are innocent. And the uninformed public will generally believe them as they've got the AD tests to back them up. Federations are happy and can hold their head high, pat themselves on the back and say good job.

I don't know what the answer is, thought the biological passport would have helped, but it doesn't seem to have made much difference.
No idea what the solution is.

walshb

Mike9832 wrote: »

The solution is pretty simple and athletes know it

If you don't take it, you won't make it

So all the ones that made it, took it?

What is to make it, btw?

Sonia take it to make it? Remember, she did make it! Not all the time.. but some of it!

Ceepo

Statement from Dathen Ritzenhien

Dathan Ritzenhein
✔
@djritzenhein
· 21h
The news of Alberto Salazar’s and Dr. Brown’s ban has taken a few days to settle in. While it was not easy to testify against someone who was once so close to me, I chose to assist and cooperate fully with USADA’s investigation into all practices done at the Nike Oregon Project


Dathan Ritzenhein
✔
@djritzenhein
(NOP). I can attest this was a vigorous and comprehensive process. I stand behind the findings of the panel. These findings are important to continue to promote clean running in our sport. I hope these conclusions provide some reassurance to clean runners everywhere.

Murph_D

I see our own Ciaran O Lionáird testified on Salazar’s behalf.

Pherekydes

Neil Black quits as UK Athletics performance director. He backed Salazar to continue working with Sir Mo, and advising UKA.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/49976878

Pherekydes

Murph_D wrote: »

I see our own Ciaran O Lionáird testified on Salazar’s behalf.

Would he have finished 10th in the WC without Alberto's "help"?

Sinbad_NI

walshb wrote: »

So all the ones that made it, took it?

What is to make it, btw?

Sonia take it to make it? Remember, she did make it! Not all the time.. but some of it!

I think there's a big difference today vs back then TBH.
EPO is such a game changer, especially for endurance events. The African athletes weren't yet dominating back then as well (which was a good sign for the sports integrity based on what we know now).
EPO was only starting to work it's way into athletics I think in the mid to late 90s. After coming into cycling a little earlier. The anabolics era of the 80s had also been brought a little under control by then (all those 80s WRs still to this day!!).
She might just have been lucky with the distance running era she landed into, well except for the Chinese.
I've certainly never heard any rumours or scandal concerning SO'S. But who really knows.

KSU

Pherekydes wrote: »

Would he have finished 10th in the WC without Alberto's "help"?

He joined group off the back of that, it was actually at Daegu he got in contact with Salazar. Before that he was still with college coach.

He has been very defensive over that however it’s worth noting he is still on Nike Payroll in marketing role IIRC

healy1835

KSU wrote: »

He joined group off the back of that, it was actually at Daegu he got in contact with Salazar. Before that he was still with college coach.

He has been very defensive over that however it’s worth noting he is still on Nike Payroll in marketing role IIRC

Am I right in saying he didn't stay long in the NOP and joined another Nike training group fairly close by?

walshb

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

I think there's a big difference today vs back then TBH.
EPO is such a game changer, especially for endurance events. The African athletes weren't yet dominating back then as well (which was a good sign for the sports integrity based on what we know now).
EPO was only starting to work it's way into athletics I think in the mid to late 90s. After coming into cycling a little earlier. The anabolics era of the 80s had also been brought a little under control by then (all those 80s WRs still to this day!!).
She might just have been lucky with the distance running era she landed into, well except for the Chinese.
I've certainly never heard any rumours or scandal concerning SO'S. But who really knows.

The poster made the usual lazy ignorant blanket statement.

EPO is around since the 90s, was available during Sonia's best runs and times..

Steroids around always, and around during, say MJs great runs and times....

This is the stupidity of some people and their matter of fact claims...

If MJ and Sonia, to name two, were on PEDs I would drop with shock!!!

Torsevt

MJ

Not saying he was but I would drop with shock if he wasn't

Everyone of his relay squad was busted except him

is_that_so

Torsevt wrote: »

MJ

Not saying he was but I would drop with shock if he wasn't

Everyone of his relay squad was busted except him

He gave back his medal voluntarily.

walshb

is_that_so wrote: »

He gave back his medal voluntarily.

But that proves nothing. Nor does his never ever failing a test.

Athletes can do nothing today to please some people...

You cannot prove you are clean and honest with some...

KSU

healy1835 wrote: »

Am I right in saying he didn't stay long in the NOP and joined another Nike training group fairly close by?

Yeah left at start of summer 2012 in around same time as Magness and going Oregon Track club with Mark Rowland. Unclear as to reasons though had suffered very bad Ankle injury so was struggling to make fitness for London

Chivito550

STB. wrote: »

She didn't though. She ran a PB and faster time than Sonia when she won Gold at 22 at 1500. That's how good Ciara's PB is. It could easily be forgotten given the winner did a 3:51 without breaking sweat, 7 days after running and winning a 10000.

If I was looking for dopers, they wouldn't be out the back.

Are dopers now dragging clean athletes to faster times or are they depriving clean athletes of medals ? Your call.

Christ. Are you actually comparing Sonia's 1991 (not 1992) win at the World Student Games to a performance at a World Championships? The World Student Games is division 3 stuff.

What next, comparing an All Ireland hurling winners medal to an Olympic medal...

Ceepo

Chivito550 wrote: »

What next, comparing an All Ireland hurling winners medal to an Olympic medal...

Are they not on a par.. sure if you win the all Ireland hurling championship you are the world champions
And elevated to legendary status :)

Braken

KSU wrote: »

He joined group off the back of that, it was actually at Daegu he got in contact with Salazar. Before that he was still with college coach.

He has been very defensive over that however it’s worth noting he is still on Nike Payroll in marketing role IIRC

I was often wondering if he was pro or anti Salazar but the fact he is on the Nike parole says it all...as is Radcliff also her husband coaches Farah ..Cram is also a Nike Ambassador as was Coe previously...if Nike were a country they would be the equilivant of Russia ..and of course the next World championships are in Eugene
home of Nike. ..the have no interest in the integrity of the sport I loved as a kid it will be their downfall eventually

walshb

Torsevt wrote: »

MJ

Not saying he was but I would drop with shock if he wasn't

Everyone of his relay squad was busted except him

So, you are pretty sure/certain that he was.....

Braken

walshb wrote: »

So, you are pretty sure/certain that he was.....

MJ has encountered a number of health issues
particularly with his heart ..still only in his 50s

walshb

Braken wrote: »

MJ has encountered a number of health issues
particularly with his heart ..still only in his 50s

And?

I am kind of waiting for more....

Are these the levels of suspicion needed to make one so sure of one's PEDs use in sport?

yaboya1

Chivito550 wrote: »

What next, comparing an All Ireland hurling winners medal to an Olympic medal...

Hurling is not an Olympic sport, so that's impossible

Sinbad_NI

walshb wrote: »

And?

I am kind of waiting for more....

Are these the levels of suspicion needed to make one so sure of one's PEDs use in sport?

Back at you...did Ayana's 10k WR look clean to you?

Always a bad sign when an athlete demolishes an old WR by a huge margin, without even being out of breath or looking at all tired.

Marty Xavier

walshb you remind me of me 20 years ago. I ran alot and devoured all athletics events, then got injured and I took to the bike and got equally into that, I idolised Roche , Kelly as a kid and later Ulrich and Armstrong along with Gabresallesie, Komen, Radcliffe, McKiernan, Sonia.

I believed they were all clean too at the time, now I see my blindness, bar 2 names above I think the rest cheated at some stage and most were consistent dopers.

I think we need to face that most of the medalists in athletics and almost all the contenders in cycling dope to a fairly large degree. If these are sports you want to follow and invest in emotionally and financially then off you go but don't try to defend them and give me the innocent until proven guilty spiel as I have heard that way to often.

I once wrote a letter to Michael Moynihan in the examiner taking him to task about a glowing article on Lance when he came to Dublin for a race a few years back now all those journos distance themselves from the great man

. I am put off most professional sports at this stage due to the obvious reasons.

average_runner

Braken wrote: »

MJ has encountered a number of health issues
particularly with his heart ..still only in his 50s

My dad when in his 50's encountered a number of issues with his heart but never took performance enhancing drugs!!!

walshb

average_runner wrote: »

My dad when in his 50's encountered a number of issues with his heart but never took performance enhancing drugs!!!

Yeh, but he could he run fast?

walshb

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Back at you...did Ayana's 10k WR look clean to you?

Always a bad sign when an athlete demolishes an old WR by a huge margin, without even being out of breath or looking at all tired.

Not sure what 'back at you' means here...

Someone having issues with their heart in their 50s seems to be now all some need for proof of PEDs use in their prime...

walshb

Marty Xavier wrote: »

walshb you remind me of me 20 years ago. I ran alot and devoured all athletics events, then got injured and I took to the bike and got equally into that, I idolised Roche , Kelly as a kid and later Ulrich and Armstrong along with Gabresallesie, Komen, Radcliffe, McKiernan, Sonia.

I believed they were all clean too at the time, now I see my blindness, bar 2 names above I think the rest cheated at some stage and most were consistent dopers.

I think we need to face that most of the medalists in athletics and almost all the contenders in cycling dope to a fairly large degree. If these are sports you want to follow and invest in emotionally and financially then off you go but don't try to defend them and give me the innocent until proven guilty spiel as I have heard that way to often.

I once wrote a letter to Michael Moynihan in the examiner taking him to task about a glowing article on Lance when he came to Dublin for a race a few years back now all those journos distance themselves from the great man

. I am put off most professional sports at this stage due to the obvious reasons.

I can't remind you of me...

I never believed all were clean, as you are putting it here....

Ben Johnson in 1988 was my first real proper introduction to what people will do to win...I never thought he was alone, but also, I never thought he was the majority...

Sinbad_NI

walshb wrote: »

Not sure what 'back at you' means here...

You seem to be throwing out names that have performed brilliantly whithout any know links to doping.
I'm just trying to fish out of you what you're really trying to ask.

Is it "do you think are all winners cheats"?
If it is, then I'd say no, but threat then all with great caution and their words with a huge pinch of salt.

walshb

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

You seem to be throwing out names that have performed brilliantly whithout any know links to doping.
I'm just trying to fish out of you what you're really trying to ask.

Is it "do you think are all winners cheats"?
If it is, then I'd say no, but threat then all with great caution and their words with a huge pinch of salt.

I was responding to the matter of fact claim that all are cheats....

I don't think all are....

Sonia clean......MJ clean....many others as well

Then there are the convicted cheats. We know these, then the suspicious ones, and so on and so on; all about levels...

Ceepo

walshb wrote: »

I was responding to the matter of fact claim that all are cheats....

I don't think all are....

Sonia clean......MJ clean....many others as well

Then there are the convicted cheats. We know these, then the suspicious ones, and so on and so on; all about levels...

So who in your mind are" the suspicious ones " and how do you define that they're suspicious