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Do you believe in God?

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    #422
    francie81
    Registered Users Posts: 1,411 ✭✭✭francie81


    I myself is very sceptical of a God as such although I would never insult any religion at that, I just feel their are too many injustices in the world we live in and if am proven to be wrong and made pay for my sins well I myself will have a stack full of tough questions to God of not intervening in an upside down world, with that said I feel Islam is the more logical and believable religion of them all imho.


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    #423
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    HappyAsLarE wrote: »
    I believe God is misunderstood. I believe in a God that is defined as the collective consciousness of all of mankind. That He is an archetype concept created to metaphorically explain our Being.

    Tell me one civil society that is not grounded in a belief in God. The concept was naturally selected as one that works, at least up until now.
    Maybe we are just a giant enormous computer !


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    #424
    Len_007
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭Len_007


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    How is this possible? The omnipotent God explicitly chose to create humans that experience pain and suffering, and conditions like cancer just for kicks?

    How is it impossible?
    If this omnipotent God that we both have assumed was one who created humans so that they would suffer, then the conditions you highlighted would be quite inline with this God's intentions for the world. That I think describes the God you are talking about.
    However the God as revealed in the OT/NT, clearly did not create humans to experience pain and suffering. That was not his primary purpose as you read Genesis 1 & 2. (There's probably an argument to be made that pain and suffering was always part of the design, not all of it is bad, as in ouch I'm too near fire).
    The primary purpose of the creation of Man was to live with God in his presence, which they forfeited when they rejected his Word and Rule over them. When that happened sin entered the world wrecking all in it's path, the devastation of which is still experienced today.
    But, the God of the OT/NT is on record endeavouring to reverse the great rupture that happened in the first pages of the Bible, as I said above flick to the end to see how it all pans out.


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    #425
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Len_007 wrote: »
    How is it impossible?
    If this omnipotent God that we both have assumed was one who created humans so that they would suffer, then the conditions you highlighted would be quite inline with this God's intentions for the world. That I think describes the God you are talking about.
    However the God as revealed in the OT/NT, clearly did not create humans to experience pain and suffering. That was not his primary purpose as you read Genesis 1 & 2. (There's probably an argument to be made that pain and suffering was always part of the design, not all of it is bad, as in ouch I'm too near fire).
    The primary purpose of the creation of Man was to live with God in his presence, which they forfeited when they rejected his Word and Rule over them. When that happened sin entered the world wrecking all in it's path, the devastation of which is still experienced today.
    But, the God of the OT/NT is on record endeavouring to reverse the great rupture that happened in the first pages of the Bible, as I said above flick to the end to see hot it all pans out.

    Not seeing why kids get cancer.


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    #426
    Len_007
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭Len_007


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Not seeing why kids get cancer.

    Or even anyone getting cancer right? Or worse, dying from it.
    Theologically, Death was a projected outcome if mankind chose to rebel against their Creator, which they did.
    So why is there death in the world? The bible's answer is because it's a consequence of turning away from man's creator.


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    #427
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Len_007 wrote: »
    Or even anyone getting cancer right? Or worse, dying from it.
    Theologically, Death was a projected outcome if mankind chose to rebel against their Creator, which they did.
    So why is there death in the world? The bible's answer is because it's a consequence of turning away from man's creator.

    How can a two year old rebel against their "creator"?


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    #428
    Dr. Bre
    Registered Users Posts: 7,542 ✭✭✭Dr. Bre


    Only humans believe in God tho? No other species prays to god as far as we know. Humans obviously think they are the greatest species so God must be true..


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    #429
    pearcider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭pearcider


    Marhay70 wrote: »
    The children of whom Jesus spoke were, surely, guilty of original sin so the comparison does not stand up. Also, absolution from original sin by baptism is only observed by Christianity so that would presumably exclude approximately 70% of the world's children.

    Not really. Jesus is clearly saying children will inherit the kingdom of God.


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    #430
    pearcider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭pearcider


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Suppose Thats one way out of the "why did you kill those kids in a horrible way and make them suffer" discussion.

    Its bull**** of course....

    What about unbaptised kids? Straight to the mass grave with them?

    I take it the parents grief at having their child die and dealing with the pain of a drawn out death at that is somehow beneficial them too?

    Thats pretty much the church all over.


    Presumably its the Christian god thats murdering children of other faiths too? They probably deserve it though for worshiping false gods?

    Doubtful. That quote says to me that all children will inherit the kingdom of God. You sound very angry by the way.


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    #431
    twowheelsonly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭twowheelsonly


    I'd believe in 'a' God, or some greater power. What or who it is nobody knows but I'd be of the belief that there is a greater power out there somewhere.

    I'm always fascinated by remote tribes etc who all worship their own gods despite any outside influence. That convinces me in a way that there is 'something' !!


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    #432
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,424 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Len_007 wrote: »
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    How is this possible? The omnipotent God explicitly chose to create humans that experience pain and suffering, and conditions like cancer just for kicks?

    How is it impossible?
    If this omnipotent God that we both have assumed was one who created humans so that they would suffer, then the conditions you highlighted would be quite inline with this God's intentions for the world. That I think describes the God you are talking about.
    However the God as revealed in the OT/NT, clearly did not create humans to experience pain and suffering. That was not his primary purpose as you read Genesis 1 & 2. (There's probably an argument to be made that pain and suffering was always part of the design, not all of it is bad, as in ouch I'm too near fire).
    The primary purpose of the creation of Man was to live with God in his presence, which they forfeited when they rejected his Word and Rule over them. When that happened sin entered the world wrecking all in it's path, the devastation of which is still experienced today.
    But, the God of the OT/NT is on record endeavouring to reverse the great rupture that happened in the first pages of the Bible, as I said above flick to the end to see how it all pans out.
    Before we get to the possible /impossible thing, could we maybe focus on the 'why'?

    Are you suggesting that the five people in my circle of family and friends who endured months or years of painful existence that caused great distress to their families got cancer because of some kind of revenge attack by god on the actions of some people about 10,000 years ago?


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    #433
    pearcider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭pearcider


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    How is this possible? The omnipotent God explicitly chose to create humans that experience pain and suffering, and conditions like cancer just for kicks?

    You’re presuming a lot there pal. Clearly existence is preferable to nothing. The world is evidently beautiful despite what you believe. You’re also very angry and that comes across strongly in your posts. Jesus taught us that wrath is the work of the devil.


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    #434
    pearcider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭pearcider


    blinding wrote: »
    Maybe we are just a giant enormous computer !

    Possibly God has some plan like this in mind. Certainly it appears this universe has invented a way to understand itself. Which is extraordinary.


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    #435
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    pearcider wrote: »
    You sound very angry by the way.

    I only get annoyed at bull**** peddlers.

    Religion is nothing but excuses and bull**** to cover up for when people eventually grow up and question the first load of crap.


    All fire and brimstone and trying to scare people.

    The older ones are no better than Scientology, they've just been around longer. Al just exist to funnel money to the top. Convincing people to live in fear of bull**** ideas like hell and to buy their way to heaven.

    Theyre all built around controlling the subjects and how they live their lives. Dont eat this or wear that, dont enjoy yourself in an unapproved way, do this on certain days. Telling people they are wrong or evil for the way they are.


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    #436
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,424 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Len_007 wrote: »
    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Not seeing why kids get cancer.

    Or even anyone getting cancer right? Or worse, dying from it.
    Theologically, Death was a projected outcome if mankind chose to rebel against their Creator, which they did.
    So why is there death in the world? The bible's answer is because it's a consequence of turning away from man's creator.
    This isn't about death. It is about the particularly painful death that results from cancer, causing great distress to the families.

    Does your book explain the rationale for these particularly painful deaths?


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    #437
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    twowheelsonly wrote: »
    I'm always fascinated by remote tribes etc who all worship their own gods despite any outside influence. That convinces me in a way that there is 'something' !!

    If there was a god , surely every group would have come to worship the same god?


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    #438
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,424 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    pearcider wrote: »
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    How is this possible? The omnipotent God explicitly chose to create humans that experience pain and suffering, and conditions like cancer just for kicks?

    You’re presuming a lot there pal. Clearly existence is preferable to nothing. The world is evidently beautiful despite what you believe. You’re also very angry and that comes across strongly in your posts. Jesus taught us that wrath is the work of the devil.
    So maybe you'd like to explain the whole cancer thing for me?


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    #439
    pearcider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭pearcider


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Before we get to the possible /impossible thing, could we maybe focus on the 'why'?

    Are you suggesting that the five people in my circle of family and friends who endured months or years of painful existence that caused great distress to their families got cancer because of some kind of revenge attack by god on the actions of some people about 10,000 years ago?

    Everybody dies: Life is but a fleeting gift. You seem to believe we are owed eternal life. Is it so hard to believe that your loved ones have passed on to another place...as many have before them.


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    #440
    Len_007
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭Len_007


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    How can a two year old rebel against their "creator"?

    Spend time with a two year old and you'll soon see.
    More seriously, more able men throughout History have discussed the nature of Inherited Sin than I. (May I recommend Bavinck for something classical, or Grudem for a contemporary, most Systematics have decent treaty's on the this issue.)


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    #441
    pearcider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭pearcider


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    So maybe you'd like to explain the whole cancer thing for me?

    Everything dies. That is clear. But some believe eternal life awaits us in heaven.


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    #442
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    pearcider wrote: »
    You’re presuming a lot there pal. Clearly existence is preferable to nothing. The world is evidently beautiful despite what you believe. You’re also very angry and that comes across strongly in your posts. Jesus taught us that wrath is the work of the devil.

    Does the Koran Torah Bible say much about irony?


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    #443
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Len_007 wrote: »
    Or even anyone getting cancer right? Or worse, dying from it.
    Theologically, Death was a projected outcome if mankind chose to rebel against their Creator, which they did.
    So why is there death in the world? The bible's answer is because it's a consequence of turning away from man's creator.

    What about the ones that didnt turn away. That devoted their lives? Do they get cancer or other ****ty things too? Cos im pretty sure I know the answer.

    Im sure thats explained away by we all have to suffer because of the **** others pull. Handy get out......


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    #444
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Len_007 wrote: »
    Spend time with a two year old and you'll soon see.
    More seriously, more able men throughout History have discussed the nature of Inherited Sin than I. (May I recommend Bavinck for something classical, or Grudem for a contemporary, most Systematics have decent treaty's on the this issue.)

    You can recommend away. How about you explain why you think a two year old can rebel against their "creator"? While you're at it, explain why one small child can 'inherit sin' and another doesn't?


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    #445
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,424 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    pearcider wrote: »
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Before we get to the possible /impossible thing, could we maybe focus on the 'why'?

    Are you suggesting that the five people in my circle of family and friends who endured months or years of painful existence that caused great distress to their families got cancer because of some kind of revenge attack by god on the actions of some people about 10,000 years ago?

    Everybody dies: Life is but a fleeting gift. You seem to believe we are owed eternal life. Is it so hard to believe that your loved ones have passed on to another place...as many have before them.
    As explained above, this isn't about death. It is about the particularly painful nature of deaths by cancer. Why did your God make it so?


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    #446
    pearcider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭pearcider


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Does the Koran Torah Bible say much about irony?

    Your arrogance is unreal.


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    #447
    BurnUp78
    Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭BurnUp78


    I wonder do aliens believe in God too?


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    #448
    twowheelsonly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭twowheelsonly


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    If there was a god , surely every group would have come to worship the same god?


    That's basically my point !!!

    Practically every group does worship a God, some without ever being in contact with any other group (and more-so in ancient times) so therefore it would have to be regarded as an in-built intuition.

    What you're referring to is organised religion, each of whom name their own Gods, but they all still amount to worshipping a superior being, whether that be in a jungle in the Amazon, St Michaels Church in Tipperary town, or the Blue Mosque in Istanbul.

    For all we know it is the same God that we all worship - we just call him different things.


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    #449
    o1s1n
    Registered Users Posts: 34,461 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    twowheelsonly wrote: »
    That's basically my point !!!

    Practically every group does worship a God, some without ever being in contact with any other group (and more-so in ancient times) so therefore it would have to be regarded as an in-built intuition.

    What you're referring to is organised religion, each of whom name their own Gods, but they all still amount to worshipping a superior being, whether that be in a jungle in the Amazon, St Michaels Church in Tipperary town, or the Blue Mosque in Istanbul.

    For all we know it is the same God that we all worship - we just call him different things.

    Societies and people have questions they can't answer, therefore they use 'magic' to do so.

    The more intelligent a society becomes, the less magic they need to answer those questions.

    It's basically 'god of the gaps' and thankfully, those gaps keep getting smaller and smaller due to scientific discoveries.


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    #450
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    pearcider wrote: »
    Your arrogance is unreal.

    Hmmm.


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    #451
    Len_007
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭Len_007


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    You can recommend away.
    Ok, one more, Calvin, Institutes, Book 2, chapter 1 section 4 to 5. And I say this with the deepest respect to you, because Calvin had the same Question you are posing.


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    While you're at it, explain why one small child can 'inherit sin' and another doesn't?
    The Bible would say that all have inherited.


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