Do you believe in God?

nozzferrahhtoo

the beer revolu wrote: »

Perhaps, you are both right!;)

Terry Pratchetts Discworld operated on that premise actually. All the characters in the book get the exact after life, or lack of it, that they were expecting at the moment of their death.

Nice idea in and of itself. The theists get the happy slappy theocracy of eternal worship of the great leader. I get eternal oblivion. And everyone is happy about it.

Mortelaro

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

And I can not "choose" to believe one, much as many theists ask me to as if they assume this is a capability I should have.

Choices are your own,our own
That is always the way
As for capability, I'd argue that's the decision not the capability
Capability only comes into it in further explanation of the decision in making the choice
Anyway,the choice is not real if what's chosen isnt
Ie you cant choose to believe in God if you don't believe
But its still a choice to take your position on available information different to mine
I think anyway

nozzferrahhtoo

Mortelaro wrote: »

Choices are your own,our own

Sure, but constrained by our reality. I can not "choose" to fly. I can not "choose" my stomach to only digest sugars and not carbs. I can not "choose" to lift 1000kgs with my little finger.

And I can not "choose" to believe a claim that is unsubstantiated.

Perhaps YOU can choose to do one or more of these things. For me, each and everyone would seem like a super power. But so do many real capabilities people have that I do not.

the beer revolu

Sugars are carbs.

Give it a rest!

Snow Garden

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Then you are just talking past me because all my point ever was was about MY decisions paths and MY ability (in this case inability) to choose what I believe. You keep telling me about the processes of others, or the decisions paths of others.... which is not really relevant to the thing I said.

Which is funny because you then go on to say "you can only speak for yourself" when I keep pointing out that is ALL I have been doing

Which is A) coherent and something I entirely agree with. When you phrase it that way, it is fine. When you say "we will find out when we die" however the language.... regardless of your intentions.... makes implications and suggestions that do not hold.

Nor I, for the most part, yours. It would seem we are talking past each other. Partially because of linguistics.

To the topic of the thread though we remain in the same place as where we started. I still have no arguments, evidence, data or reasoning upon which to suspect there is a god. Therefore I do not believe there is a god. And I can not "choose" to believe one, much as many theists ask me to as if they assume this is a capability I should have.

nozzferrahhtoo, you are without doubt one of the best and most intelligent posters on Boards. I really enjoy reading your posts.

nozzferrahhtoo

Aw shucks I bet you say that to all the undead.

Mortelaro

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Sure, but constrained by our reality.

Not necessarily when we don't know (yet) if a reality is there or not
People can choose a path that takes account of the unknown
You can't, I get that
I can

nozzferrahhtoo

Mortelaro wrote: »

Not necessarily when we don't know (yet) if a reality is there or not

Well when I can choose to fly despite the constraints of my reality, I promise I will get back to you

Mortelaro

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Well when I can choose to fly despite the constraints of my reality, I promise I will get back to you

What's stopping you,is the 747 bus or the air coach not running today?

nozzferrahhtoo

I admire your pedantry. Actually I should have used Sam Harris' phrase "fly without the aid of technology".

valoren

I don't believe in the Abrahamic God, not in the slightest. I also believe that Christ, who was a historical person of interest, was a preacher among preachers who became a rock star. He was effectively assassinated by the church as they had a mafia-esque vice grip on the business of religion and the sordid business of Christ's death, where his revolutionary message that "God" is in each and every one of us was deemed blasphemy, was done to ensure the continuation of that business. Christ, his message and his life story was subsequently exploited in the following centuries to create the religion of Christianity where he was posited as the son of the Abrahamic God, who doesn't exist, and he became a biblical version of the Superman mythos.

The bigger questions to me are greater than the Abrahamic God. Where the hell did everything come from? The atoms, time and space which make up the known universe originated from somewhere. The idea that there was a primordial energy condensed into a space the size of an atomic nucleus which expanded at a geometric rate billions of years ago is both fascinating and frightening. The matter we are made up of was determined within a mind bogglingly small period of time. I like to think that our universe is one of trillions, that the matter in our particular universe simply satisfied a particular mathematical iteration which culminated into our own collective atoms achieving sentience and consciousness. The idea that we are a fluke of nature has to be considered. Unfortunately that sentience is limited and we ultimately lose our consciousness until all the matter in our universe is slowly condensed, with billions of black holes colliding back together, all back into that same primordial atom of energy and the whole process goes on and on for infinity. The belief in God for me is a form of cognitive dissonance. We know we're going to die. Believing that we "go on" is far more comforting than the idea of your consciousness ceasing to exist. Choosing to believe in an after life is simply an individual persons prerogative. The alternative is realising that you will die and choosing to spend it all as well as you can. The odds of us being here is incredible as it is.

You don't need a God or a religion to tell you about empathy, love, respect, morals and values. That's the kind of stuff that got Jesus crucified. What does it all mean? We will probably never know but that's not going to stop us from trying.

antiskeptic

valoren wrote: »

...and the sordid business of Christ's death, where his revolutionary message that "God" is in each and every one of us was deemed blasphemy,

Where did you obtain Christ's revolutionary message?

Choosing to believe in an after life is simply an individual persons prerogative. The alternative is realising that you will die and choosing to spend it all as well as you can.

How is it that a person with one belief chooses that belief. And a person with another belief (you and your view on nul after death) doesn't choose. Instead, they 'realize'

You don't need a God or a religion to tell you about empathy, love, respect, morals and values

Perhaps not. But if love, empathy and respect have objective value you need somewhere to anchor them. Otherwise they have whatever value anyone decides to attach to them. Hate would have as much value as love, if you decided so.

As soon as you point to universal objective value (e.g. love is good, hate is bad) you are pointing to a God.

Professor Moriarty

antiskeptic wrote: »

Where did you obtain Christ's revolutionary message?





How is it that a person with one belief chooses that belief. And a person with another belief (you and your view on nul after death) doesn't choose. Instead, they 'realize'




Perhaps not. But if love, empathy and respect have objective value you need somewhere to anchor them. Otherwise they have whatever value anyone decides to attach to them. Hate would have as much value as love, if you decided so.

As soon as you point to universal objective value (e.g. love is good, hate is bad) you are pointing to a God.

Absolutely not. Logic dictates that love is good for humanity and hate is bad for humanity. Nothing to do with 'God'.

Mortelaro

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I admire your pedantry. Actually I should have used Sam Harris' phrase "fly without the aid of technology".

I could also have asked you how do you know that some unknown power is not going to come down from on high somewhere and grant you wings but just hasn't chosen to yet
You don't,just as you don't know what if anything exists after someone dies
I just genuinely thought you couldn't choose to make it to the airport today
Everybody probably would,if there werent more pressing choices to be made,the weathers crap

antiskeptic

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Absolutely not. Logic dictates that love is good for humanity and hate is bad for humanity. Nothing to do with 'God'.

Logic? Hate (through war or sharp business practice) gets you giant swathes of land and great wealth. Its good for YOU if that's your bag.

Who cares whether its 'good' for humanity?

Professor Moriarty

antiskeptic wrote: »

Logic? Hate (through war or sharp business practice) gets you giant swathes of land and great wealth. Its good for YOU if that's your bag.

Who cares whether its 'good' for humanity?

If you take that logic deeper to its ultimate conclusion, what goes around comes around. Rational thought would bring a person to the understanding that what is good for my fellow human being is good for me and mine. I don't need to believe in a 'God' to draw that conclusion. Love is better than hate for me and for others - that is logical.

nozzferrahhtoo

Mortelaro wrote: »

I could also have asked you how do you know that some unknown power is not going to

Same answer as before. I work on the data I have now. Not data I MIGHT have tomorrow.

MMyers

Yes I do but I'm not sure about all the man made religions, (although all theories are man made) I don't believe the bible ever gives a description of was Jesus looked lik, but we have the image of a man with a beard and long hair, same with the catholic church (which I was baptized in) has statues of the saints and bible characters, but the bible doesn't give any description of what they looked like.

In the end, I love to let people have their own beliefs without forcing mine on anyone, I do find it ironic that the people who talk most about God/religion tend to be Athiests.

Huntergonzo

MMyers wrote: »

Yes I do but I'm not sure about all the man made religions, (although all theories are man made) I don't believe the bible ever gives a description of was Jesus looked lik, but we have the image of a man with a beard and long hair, same with the catholic church (which I was baptized in) has statues of the saints and bible characters, but the bible doesn't give any description of what they looked like.

In the end, I love to let people have their own beliefs without forcing mine on anyone, I do find it ironic that the people who talk most about God/religion tend to be Athiests.

In fairness I'd imagine priests, pastors and parishioners etc talk more about god than atheists do.

I don't believe in any gods meself (eg Thor, Allah, Zeus, Christian God, Jew God, The Flying Spaghetti Monster etc) but I don't have a problem with people believing whatever they wish so long as they don't feel the need to introduce me to their imaginary friends or the rules thereof.

Trouble is I (like many people here) went to primary and secondary school in Ireland where they were only mad to tell me all about this Jesus fella.

They spoke at length about this imaginery Jesus/God fella who apparently created the universe and how he should be worshiped in places of supposed education (both run of the mill public schools).

As long as that sort of perinicious indoctrination continues I think people will be talking about god.

Mortelaro

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Same answer as before. I work on the data I have now. Not data I MIGHT have tomorrow.

I'm not challenging you,you've made a choice but other mileage does vary
It's not all about you and it's not all about me

antiskeptic

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If you take that logic deeper to its ultimate conclusion, what goes around comes around.

So long as you don't care or don't think it will come around in your lifetime your logic (which I don't think is correct btw) is irrelevent.

If I want wealth and get wealth by being 'bad' then everything is fine. Say by my factory dumping toxic waste into rivers

MMyers

Huntergonzo wrote: »

In fairness I'd imagine priests, pastors and parishioners etc talk more about god than atheists do.

I don't believe in any gods meself (eg Thor, Allah, Zeus, Christian God, Jew God, The Flying Spaghetti Monster etc) but I don't have a problem with people believing whatever they wish so long as they don't feel the need to introduce me to their imaginary friends or the rules thereof.

Trouble is I (like many people here) went to primary and secondary school in Ireland where they were only mad to tell me all about this Jesus fella.

They spoke at length about this imaginery Jesus/God fella who apparently created the universe and how he should be worshiped in places of supposed education (both run of the mill public schools).

As long as that sort of perinicious indoctrination continues I think people will be talking about god.

I think that's a huge part of the problem, forcing someone to believe in something for years is only going to make people pull away. For me, religion should be a subject you can choose to study if you want.

Professor Moriarty

antiskeptic wrote: »

So long as you don't care or don't think it will come around in your lifetime your logic (which I don't think is correct btw) is irrelevent.

If I want wealth and get wealth by being 'bad' then everything is fine. Say by my factory dumping toxic waste into rivers

Can you say why my logic is incorrect?

Huntergonzo

MMyers wrote: »

I think that's a huge part of the problem, forcing someone to believe in something for years is only going to make people pull away. For me, religion should be a subject you can choose to study if you want.

Yes I would agree with that, I'm all for choice, religion should certainly not be compulsory.

Schools are increasingly diverse these days though so it would be difficult to cater for everybody. Perhaps a general religion class where all faiths are studied and discussed rather than focusing on teaching one specific set of beliefs could be the way to go.

AndrewJRenko

Mortelaro wrote: »

Hence my challenges philosophy
To each their own as they say

Does your philosophy explain why the 11 year old son of an old workmate died last week when his cancer returned for a second time?

Mortelaro

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Does your philosophy explain why the 11 year old son of an old workmate died last week when his cancer returned for a second time?

Yes

Timberrrrrrrr

Mortelaro wrote: »

Yes

Please elaborate.

nozzferrahhtoo

Mortelaro wrote: »

you've made a choice

*Sigh* going right over your head isnt it?