Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

That YT link above is worth a watch. Juncker really adamant about no extension.

It's not down to him, it's down to the leaders of the EU27. I can't say that I blame him though.

LeinsterDub

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That YT link above is worth a watch. Juncker really adamant about no extension.

Adamant about no extension if it's passed. Not if it's rejected

L1011

Headshot wrote: »

BJ 6 defeats in a row in the UK Parliament.

This might be a chance for a confirmation referendum

A really boring vote on air pollution passed and broke his duck

Kermit.de.frog

Sterling rising on Juncker comments.

Market see this as reinforcing the deal could get through.

Penn

MrMusician18 wrote: »

From my understanding, and I could be wrong, was that the Benn act just required Johnson to bring a deal back or be required to ask for an extension at the council meeting.

Now that there is a deal on the table and that won't be voted on until after the council meeting, there is no requirement to ask for an extension.

Therefore if the deal fails to pass, it means a no deal exit unless Johnson asks for an extension (which he won't be compelled to do) and there is an emergency European council meeting to grant said extension.

They could vote for the deal with an amendment that there's to be a referendum on it and that Johnson must request an extension in order to facilitate it. If that were to happen, Johnson would be compelled to request for the extension, and despite what Juncker has said, I'd say the EU would grant it. At least in that scenario it's an extension which results in a definitive decision via a referendum.

ToBeFrank123

dancingwith wrote: »

The Guardian are reporting that Juncker says its this deal or no deal !

EU will not grant any further extension, says Juncker, implying MPs must choose between this deal and no deal

This is hugely significant, because, if the rest of the EU27 agree - and it is not clear yet whether he is speaking on their behalf - it means MPs will effectively be faced with a choice between this deal and no deal

The EU have finally run out of patience with the UK political system and House of Commons game playing.

Joe_ Public

20silkcut wrote: »

The fact that no significant charismatic leader emerged to rally the remain side is a failure.
If brexit was the biggest political mandate in British history , then remaining in the EU is the second biggest.
Out of 16 million people no one emerged to take down the likes of Farage , Johnson , mogg etc.

Tony Blair is probably the highest profile Face of the remain side that says a lot.
It was an abject failure.
It took a massive effort by the likes of Ted Heath , Harold McMillan , Roy Jenkins etc to get Britain into the EU . The fact that no one emerged at this time of similar drive and passion and stature to them is a failure. Especially when it’s clear the mandate is there.

Okay fair enough. You haven't addressed the question in any meaningful way to be honest but I won't get bogged down on it. Will leave it at that.

prawnsambo

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Adamant about no extension if it's passed. Not if it's rejected

I'm not sure they can get all the legislation involved in making this a reality through the HoC before the 31st October. Very, very tight timetable.

ancapailldorcha

Penn wrote: »

They could vote for the deal with an amendment that there's to be a referendum on it and that Johnson must request an extension in order to facilitate it. If that were to happen, Johnson would be compelled to request for the extension, and despite what Juncker has said, I'd say the EU would grant it. At least in that scenario it's an extension which results in a definitive decision via a referendum.

I can't see the EU refusing an extension if one is requested for a GE or a People's Vote. The chances of this getting through Parliament are sketchy at best.

dancingwith

SNIP. No more of this please.

Dyr

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How is this different to for example , UK + EU went with the backstop, UK + EU agreed a trade deal, the backstop is removed , UK pulls out of the deal at some point down the line.

Because the Irish Government and the EU said that any deal would be contingent on the guarantees to the GFA that the backstop brought about being maintained.

Though in retrospect that would have probably turned out to be horse**** too :rolleyes:

Is there anyone here who's going to try claim that the Irish Government did not roll back on the 2 red lines that it laid down from the start?

Poor Theresa May must be wondering why the f**k she didnt get this offer from Leo, though I have an idea why

Tacitus Kilgore

Is this deal good from an Irish perspective? Are we now never more than 6 years away from a potential hard border?



I can't see how it's good for NI at all, (better than no-deal of course) but doesn't it just extend uncertainty into perpetuity? and basically allow brexit to re-emerge every 4 years.. I can't see much FDI happening in such a place for one,


Would love to see how this works from our perspective as I cannot get my ceann around it today..

Joe_ Public

If there is no extension that surely has to bring the question of a vonc back into play this weekend. Have to come up with alternative plan and very promptly.

dancingwith

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

The EU have finally run out of patience with the UK political system and House of Commons game playing.

I agree, patience in the EU must be completely frayed. The French in particular are not in favour of an extension.

gooch2k9

Joe_ Public wrote: »

If there is no extension that surely has to bring the question of a vonc back into play this weekend. Have to come up with alternative plan and very promptly.

That would just cement no deal? If an extension is ruled out it's this deal or no deal.



I think it's just politics from Juncker. The EU want this done. They're not happy with it but have other things to deal with.

robinph

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Adamant about no extension if it's passed. Not if it's rejected

That is how I took what he was saying when being repeatedly asked the same questions by reporters who seemed a bit shocked at what he was saying.

By the end of the chat with the English speaking reporters he was sounding more like he was saying no extension ever again, and that is the bit they will be replaying on the Brexit propaganda networks.

But that still doesn't really change the options open to parliament. They can still reject the deal, they can still ask for an extension, it will very likely be given, but if not then that is still really the same place as they would be in anyway. They still have the options of a VoNC and appointing another PM and revoking/ asking for an extension in order to have a peoples vote.

The EU would not be looking very good if they rejected a proposal from a new PM for a revoke or peoples vote options.

ancapailldorcha

The EU must be expecting a request for an extension. They must know that, even being optimistic there is a real chance of this failing on Saturday.

Joe_ Public

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The EU must be expecting a request for an extension. They must know that, even being optimistic there is a real chance of this failing on Saturday.

Don't believe the reports anyway. Too many bum steers already, fliers all over the place.

tanko

How can the EU trust the UK to operate their customs regime on their behalf?
Surely this is a recipe for disaster.

Varta

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I can't see the EU refusing an extension if one is requested for a GE or a People's Vote. The chances of this getting through Parliament are sketchy at best.

You are probably correct, however, judging by the comment earlier fro EU that the DUP in or out was a UK issue, the EU seem to be distancing themselves from the UK and an extension is by no means guaranteed.

MrMusician18

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That's incorrect. The deal must be passed by the HoC or else he has to ask for an extension

I wasn't sure, thanks for clarifying.


The question is, will the European council entertain an extension request now that a deal is on the table, considering that the council concludes before the HoC vote.

ancapailldorcha

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Don't believe the reports anyway. Too many bum steers already, fliers all over the place.

Yeah. I should probably wait until more fleshed out analysis from The Economist or the FT appears.

Varta wrote: »

You are probably correct, however, judging by the comment earlier fro EU that the DUP in or out was a UK issue, the EU seem to be distancing themselves from the UK and an extension is by no means guaranteed.

I would disagree if it's to facilitate cancelling Brexit. It's why they've allowed two extensions already. I could be wrong but I shan't despair just yet (though I do wish I spoke German or French all the same).

Varta

Joe_ Public wrote: »

If there is no extension that surely has to bring the question of a vonc back into play this weekend. Have to come up with alternative plan and very promptly.

It might be too late. There is no guarantee now that the EU would grant an extension after a vonc. Brexit has gathered momentum over the last few weeks and it is belting along today.

Joe_ Public

gooch2k9 wrote: »

That would just cement no deal? If an extension is ruled out it's this deal or no deal.



I think it's just politics from Juncker. The EU want this done. They're not happy with it but have other things to deal with.

True, wasn't thinking properly. Have to wait to see if any truth in this, looks very doubtful to me.

LeinsterDub

Bambi wrote: »

Because the Irish Government and the EU said that any deal would be contingent on the guarantees to the GFA that the backstop brought about being maintained.

Though in retrospect that would have probably turned out to be horse**** too :rolleyes:

Is there anyone here who's going to try claim that the Irish Government did not roll back on the 2 red lines that it laid down from the start?

Poor Theresa May must be wondering why the f**k she didnt get this offer from Leo, though I have an idea why

You ignored my question. How is the current deal different to the situation I outlined?

fash

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Maybe they will, probably not, but it could happen. That depends on who the people of NI choose to represent them.

The structure of this is interesting though, that two year cooling off period is key I think. Will the DUP want to launch NI into an interim period with a clock ticking down to a hard border? What is the likelyhood that such a scenario would see the conditions for a border poll being met during that interim period?

There can be no hard border unless a majority of the people of NI decide they want one, that is good enough for me.

That is not really the reality though. The reality is "you will be stuck in a never-ending "when will the second shoe drop" purgatory that will destroy your economy until a majority votes for a hard border". That is not a good deal and incentivises a hard border. Furthermore, the border affects communities on both sides of the border - those on the Republic side have no voice in this despite being equally affected.

prawnsambo

Bambi wrote: »

Because the Irish Government and the EU said that any deal would be contingent on the guarantees to the GFA that the backstop brought about being maintained.

They've also said that they would be open to anything else that could replace the backstop as a substitute. And as pointed out, that could have been anything that came out of the future relationship. Or some alternative arrangement that emerged during the transition period.

Varta

The EU have been watching the UK closely. When they might have expected a vonc in Parliament, all they saw was opposition parties bitching and refusing to compromise in even the smallest way to bring a vonc. Perhaps they have simply decided walk away.

dancingwith

This is what Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European commission, said about ruling out a Brexit extension. He was speaking to reporters on the “red carpet” where leaders speak to journalists as they arrive for the summit.

Asked if he thought the deal would pass parliament, he said: “It has to.”

Then he added:

Anyway, there will be no prolongation.

He went on:

We have concluded a deal. So there is not an argument for delay. It has to be done now.

Asked by another journalist if he would rule out an extension if Boris Johnson asked for that, Juncker replied:

I gave a brief doorstop with Boris Johnson ... half an hour ago and I was ruling out that there will be any kind of prolongation. If we have a deal, we have a deal, and there is no need for prolongation. That is not only the British view; that is my view too.

Asked again if he would officially rule out an extension, he replied:

Yes. We have a deal. So why should we have a prolongation.

ToBeFrank123

dancingwith wrote: »

I agree, patience in the EU must be completely frayed. The French in particular are not in favour of an extension.

And everyone has run out of patience with the DUP. They are holding the whole of Europe up with their inability to say Yes to anything.

No matter what deal is brought back from the EU, the DUP will say No.