Greta and the aristocrat sail the high seas to save the planet.

Tell me how

gozunda wrote: »

Btw just to clarify your comment above where you included me alongside the other villains - I have never suggested that that a "glacier in New Zealand melted given that an ice cube removed from a freezer will melt on the floor of the kitchen" Or even ever stated that I "refuse to recycle or to consider changing ...mode of transport from a diesel car: or similar ...

So you can remove me from that list of those you think 'ignorant and regressive'. One thing for sure that attitude is certainly no way to persuade people that you are somehow right and they are wrong.

You have over 800 posts on this thread (i have over 1K) That is more than enough for both of us to have formed opinions of the other.

Also, the use of 'villains' is your word. I never suggested it.

Finally, at this point, this thread is way beyond persuading anyone of anything. As I said, I'm just here to try to ensure that it isn't left to those saying 'let's do nothing' or 'isn't Greta terrible' or whatever the general tone would be.

Tell me how

Climate Slut wrote: »

I've yet to see any conclusive evidence that the dominant driver of climate change is caused by humans, it's interesting that so many people seem to be so closed minded about the issue. Not very scientific.

The turning point of human civilisation and development came when Amerigo Vespucco said three magical words, "I don't know". These are words which lead to new discoveries and a better way of living.

Welcome to Boards.

Where have you looked to find evidence?

Thelonious Monk

Is this thread being hijacked by big oil bots or something?

gozunda

Tell me how wrote: »

You have over 800 posts on this thread (i have over 1K) That is more than enough for both of us to have formed opinions of the other.Also, the use of 'villains' is your word. I never suggested it. Finally, at this point, this thread is way beyond persuading anyone of anything. As I said, I'm just here to try to ensure that it isn't left to those saying 'let's do nothing' or 'isn't Greta terrible' or whatever the general tone would be.

Again congrats on the post count btw - you've mentioned that a few times already I think.

This is a simply a discussion. I have formed no 'opinion' of you nor do I wish to do so. And I'm certainly not going down the road of describing anyone as 'regressive or ignorant nor anything similar. And I think you knew the villain reference arose from this .

Tell me how wrote:

I'm not bothered, your contribution, amongst others, throughout the entirety of this thread has supported me forming such an opinion.

Again no evidence of any groups on mass stating 'let's do nothing' or 'isn't Greta terrible' imo.

That's the thing thats missing there though - people have differing opinions and will likley have long after you or I or anyone else has disappeared. Hanging in there for grim death because someone might say something different is really neither here nor there. But no matter - I leave you at it.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Errrh ok - I could take a guess what you're getting at there - though your own thoughts or ideas on any of that might be a good start before the mega link dump ...

Something you may be guilty of yourself.

Tuisceanch

There wasn't really much posted here about Cop25, but at the time I came across this video where Dr Peter Carter summarizes,in his opinion, the lack of "climate emergency".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=711&v=oa13KrOvE2s&feature=emb_logo

Upon hearing that a panel of scientists was been put together as a public event, prompted by concern that the science wasn’t present in the main event during the negotiations, which had been the norm in the past, he took it upon himself to check whether the documents had been placed with the climate secretariat,and confirmed that this was indeed the case. During this interview he referenced the droughts in Chile and sub-saharan Africa,which,if I understood correctly, he said had been classified as permanent droughts which would also be the case for Australia next year.

In the case of Chile this article seems to confirm that point

https://www.voanews.com/americas/chile-says-drought-permanent-lays-out-water-plan

The drought, which began in 2007, is hampering copper production in the world's top exporter, exacerbating forest fires, driving energy prices higher and impacting agriculture.

“Faced with this critical situation, there is no choice but to assume that the lack of water resources is a reality that is here to stay and that puts at risk the development of important regions of our country,” Bachelet said in a televised speech.

In the case of Australia I was prompted recently to do some research into the situation there.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/11/australias-unpredictable-weather-drought-climate-change/

Southern Australia, and in particular the southwest, has seen a rapid decline in winter rainfall and runoff that has been linked to climate change. In the southeast there has also been a substantial decline in winter rainfall and total runoff in recent decades. Although the reductions are consistent with climate change projections, the trend so far is harder to distinguish from the year-to-year variability.

For an anecdotal account of the drought conditions in Australia here is another article

https://www.abc.net.au/news/about/backstory/news-coverage/2019-07-20/australias-drought-crisis-is-still-a-real-and-ongoing-threat/11321564

gozunda

Tuisceanch wrote: »

...

In the case of Australia I was prompted recently to do some research into the situation there.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/11/australias-unpredictable-weather-drought-climate-change/

Thanks for that last one - interesting article. I think I've read something else from those authors. I'll see if I can find it.

Tuisceanch

gozunda wrote: »

Thanks for that last one - interesting article. I think I've read sonething else from those authors. I'll see if I can find it.

Not sure who you're referring to but in the case of Andy Pitman,who asserted that:

Climate scientist says Sky News commentators misrepresented his views on drought

The issue of whether Australia’s current drought is caused by climate change has been seized on by some media commentators, with debate raging over a remark from eminent scientist Andy Pitman that “there is no link between climate change and drought”. Professor Pitman has since qualified, he meant to say “there is no direct link between climate change and drought”.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/oct/25/climate-scientist-says-sky-news-commentators-misrepresented-his-views-on-drought

Here is an interesting paper he co-authored,which supports his previous assertion.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329422782_Extreme_events_in_the_context_of_climate_change

Our climate is changing as a consequence of human-induced greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions.1 Climate is typically defined as the average of 30 years of weather. At least initially, projected changes, on timescales of 30 years or longer, are likely to occur slowly enough so that many socio-economic and human systems can adapt.

When we look at how extreme events are changing, any sense of security we might have, based on a smooth, long-term temperature trend, evaporates.

Unfortunately, the future of extreme heat does not look good for humans. We have already seen remarkable changes in extreme heat events with 1°C global warming; current projections estimate the planet will warm by 2.5–5.8°C by 2100 under a business-as-usual scenario.

This is central to the point he was trying to make

We do not really know what will happen with droughts in the future – they are complex expressions of changes in modes of variability, synoptic states, rainfall, vegetation and soil moisture.

A bit of background on Andy Pitman

Andrew John Pitman AO is a British-Australian atmospheric scientist.

He was born in Bristol in 1964 and educated at Liverpool University (B.Sc. Hons and Ph.D.). He holds a Postgraduate Certificate in Educational Leadership (Higher Education) from Macquarie University.

Educated in Liverpool - got to be a sound lad.

Pitman has a long history of working on land surface processes for climate models. He has worked on improving how hydrology, vegetation and land cover change is represented in climate models, and the global and regional impacts of land cover change. He has interests in climate extremes and how these are likely to change in the future.

gozunda

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Not sure who you're referring to but in the case of Andy Pitman,who asserted that:
...

No not him. Thanks for all the quotes though

It does show the dangers of what happens when the media get hold of scientific reseach and put their own spin on it. Something which is an increasing issue with a lot of climate change Information being presented by the media.

Anyway It was another paper. As I said I'll see if I can find it again...

It

Tuisceanch

I just came across this rather sad story about the culling of camels in Australia.

Snipers to cull up to 10,000 camels in drought-stricken Australia - Jan 08 2020

https://news.yahoo.com/snipers-cull-10-000-camels-drought-stricken-australia-050517238.html

Sydney (AFP) - Snipers took to helicopters in Australia on Wednesday to begin a mass cull of up to 10,000 camels as drought drives big herds of the feral animals to search for water closer to remote towns, endangering indigenous communities.

Local officials in South Australia state said "extremely large" herds have been encroaching on rural communities -- threatening scarce food and drinking water, damaging infrastructure, and creating a dangerous hazard for drivers.

It reminded of these stories from last year about Polar bears in Siberia.

Town in northern Russia battling invasion of polar bears - Feb 10 2019

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/town-in-northern-russia-battling-invasion-of-polar-bears-1.3788910

Russia is battling an unprecedented invasion of polar bears on a remote Arctic archipelago that is home to the country’s most northerly military base. Known locally as “Lords of the Arctic”, the wild animals have been terrorising the population on Novaya Zemlya, a group of mountainous islands off Russia’s northern coast once used as a testing ground for atomic bombs.

Polar bears migrate from the south to the north of the Novaya Zemlya archipelago in response to seasonal changes in ice conditions, Ilya Mordvintsev, an ecological and evolution specialist at the Russian Academy of Sciences, told the Tass news agency.

Polar Bear Threat ‘Becoming The Norm’ As 50+ Assemble Near Russian Village - Dec 7 2019
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/polar-bears-ryrkaypiy-climate-change_n_5dec1505e4b00563b85224d0

On Thursday, a local “bear patrol” reported 56 polar bears gathered near the far northeast Russian village of Ryrkaypiy on the Chukchi Sea, according to a statement from World Wildlife Fund Russia. And later local reports cited by Mashable put the number at 61.

Around five years ago, it would be rare to see more than three to five bears in a group near the village, biologist Anatoly Kochnev told Russian news agency TASS in November.

But a “massive gathering” like this one is more likely to occur as a warming climate leads to shrinking sea ice, according to WWF Russia. Polar bears use sea ice to hunt for prey, like seals, but they can’t do so when there’s too little ice.

gozunda

I was a littlec surprised that there was no reaction along the usual lines or even a twitter profile change after Ricky Gervais made a comment at the Globe Awards ceremony when he said most of the various stars had spent less time in school than Greta Thunberg or wtte

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Mjr6QbQl3U

https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/movies/most-of-you-spent-less-time-in-school-than-greta-thunberg-ricky-gervaiss-best-and-most-shocking-jokes-from-the-golden-globes-38837007.html

gozunda

Tuisceanch wrote: »

I just came across this rather sad story about the culling of camels in Australia.

Dont believe it is sad tbh. And its not the first time camels have had to be culled in Australia. They are a problematic non native species whose populations have grown massively since their introduction there .

By 2008, it was feared that Central Australia's feral camel population had grown to about one million and was projected to double every 8 to 10 years. Camels are known to cause serious degradation of local environmental and cultural sites, particularly during dry conditions. An AU$19 million management program was funded in 2009, and, upon completion in 2013, the feral population was estimated to have been reduced to around 300,000 ....

Camels can do significant damage to infrastructure such as taps, pumps and even toilets as a means to obtain water, particularly in times of severe drought. They also damage stock fences and cattle watering points. These effects are felt particularly in Aboriginaland other remote communities where the costs of repairs are prohibitive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_feral_camel

Tuisceanch wrote: »

It reminded of these stories from last year about Polar bears in Siberia.

Not really the same - see above. But again the Polar bear (albeit a native species to the Artic) is proving to be somewhat controversial - external to the usual media forces which tend to only run with the cute polar bear type stories, which apparently is contributing to some of the issues regarding polar bear conservation.

Reports indicate the polar bear do not face imminent extinction and also claims that some polar bear populations are actually increasing leading to problems with settlements and native peoples etc in the Artic region.

https://www.arctictoday.com/narrative-polar-bears-become-problem-arctic-environmental-groups/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/too-many-polar-bears-1.4901910

[

Thelonious Monk

Apocalypse Cow: How meat killed the planet, is on C4 at 10pm tonight. Would make great viewing for all the farmers in this thread. Our hero George Monbiot argues that current farming practices are destroying the planet and will be obselete in 50 years. When you see the damage Ag does here in Ireland i hope he's right.

Fr_Dougal

So this ‘climate change’ in Australia was actually arsonists starting these fires maliciously.

Tuisceanch

gozunda wrote: »

Dont believe it is sad tbh. And its not the firt time camels have had to be culled in Australia. They are a problematic non native species whose populations have grown massively since their introduction there .



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_feral_camel



Not really the same - see above. But again the Polar bear (albeit a native species to the Artic) is proving to be somewhat controversial - external to the usual media forces which tend to only run with the cute polar bear type stories, which apparently is contributing to some of the issues regarding polar bear conservation.

Reports indicate the polar bear do not face imminent extinction and also claims that some polar bear populations are actually increasing leading to problems with settlements and native peoples etc in the Artic region.

https://www.arctictoday.com/narrative-polar-bears-become-problem-arctic-environmental-groups/

https://www.highnorthnews.com/en/too-many-polar-bears

Yes I take your point about the culling of the camels. Interesting resources also on the issues relating to the Inuit in Nunavut. I found this paper which describes the tension between scientists and the native population

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305552003_Conflicting_Understandings_in_Polar_Bear_Co-management_in_the_Inuit_Nunangat_Enacting_Inuit_Knowledge_and_Identity

The co-management of polar bears between scientists and the Inuit in Nunavut has been fraught with tension. This chapter explores the Inuit’s perspective by highlighting where the bear fits within Inuit cosmology and how it influences their relationships with the animal, with respect to hunting. Since 2005, environmentalists have tried to ban polar bear hunting on an international scale and to get the animal put on the list of species threatened with extinction. This has had a major impact on already fragile northern economies, as it discourages sport hunting, which many Inuit count on for needed income.

Thelonious Monk

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

So this ‘climate change’ in Australia was actually arsonists starting these fires maliciously.

The conditions for arsonists to thrive were worsened by climate change seems to be what scientists are saying. I would imagine it'll only get worse.

Fr_Dougal

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The conditions for arsonists to thrive were worsened by climate change seems to be what scientists are saying. I would imagine it'll only get worse.

Yes, in the sense that the population has grown so much you have more scrotes to start these malicious fires.

easypazz

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Apocalypse Cow: How meat killed the planet, is on C4 at 10pm tonight. Would make great viewing for all the farmers in this thread. Our hero George Monbiot argues that current farming practices are destroying the planet and will be obselete in 50 years. When you see the damage Ag does here in Ireland i hope he's right.

I didn't see the programme but I doubt agriculture is to blame.

Medical science has caused people to live longer, reproduce more and an explosion in the population.

All those vaccines have disrupted the natural cull of the human population.

When the population was 1 billion people there were no issues with climate change.

Now there are 8 billion and we need to cut the human population, not the number of cows.

gozunda

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Yes I take your point about the culling of the camels. Interesting resources also on the issues relating to the Inuit in Nunavut. I found this paper which describes the tension between scientists and the native population

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305552003_Conflicting_Understandings_in_Polar_Bear_Co-management_in_the_Inuit_Nunangat_Enacting_Inuit_Knowledge_and_Identity

Thanks for that .

Another interesting story regarding polar bears i came across was the use of film footage of a dying polar bear which caused some recent controversy

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/emaciated-polar-bear-response-1.4788259

gozunda

easypazz wrote: »

I didn't see the programme but I doubt agriculture is to blame.

Medical science has caused people to live longer, reproduce more and an explosion in the population.

All those vaccines have disrupted the natural cull of the human population.

When the population was 1 billion people there were no issues with climate change.

Now there are 8 billion and we need to cut the human population, not the number of cows.

Funny thing is we have less cows in the country than when we joined the EU in 1973. I believe the situation in the UK is similar. Our human population has nearly doubled in the same time frame.

Yer man George Monbiot is a radical vegan who once helped set up an alternative green party in the UK because the greens weren't radical enough. He believes that the world renowned landscapes such as the Lake District National Park in the UK are an abomination.

He also famously tried to carry out an unsuccessful citizen's arrest of John Bolton, a former US ambassador to the United Nations at a literary festival. Tbh I reckon whatever the program will be - it will be far from balanced or logical.

Some people do seem to be obsessed with cows for sure but its not just cows Monbiot is after either - he doesn't want anyone eating eggs either. Oh and oddly he has even claimed that "David Attenborough has betrayed the living world he loves"

"Our hero George Monbiot" Is certainly not viewed positively by all
See:
https://mronline.org/2018/01/18/monbiot-is-a-hypocrite-and-a-bully/

hetuzozaho

easypazz wrote: »

When the population was 1 billion people there were no issues with climate change.

There was no climate change before there was loads of us? Damn us

Thelonious Monk

easypazz wrote: »

I didn't see the programme but I doubt agriculture is to blame.

Medical science has caused people to live longer, reproduce more and an explosion in the population.

All those vaccines have disrupted the natural cull of the human population.

When the population was 1 billion people there were no issues with climate change.

Now there are 8 billion and we need to cut the human population, not the number of cows.

So basically this is a cop out. You and the people thanking this post recognise there's a massive problem but are unwilling to do anything about it except blame population. There wont be any population control unless we have some kind of fascist regime in place lets face it.
So reducing the number of cows, changing our diets, reducing consumption, better distribution of wealth, education, green energy, all of these things would help our current situation and they mean changing our lifestyles and being more frugal etc. There is no avoiding this if we want to avert disaster.

weldoninhio

gozunda wrote: »

Thanks for that .

Another interesting story regarding polar bears i came across was the use of film footage of a dying polar bear which caused some recent controversy

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/emaciated-polar-bear-response-1.4788259

Isn't that original, fake, story what turned Greta onto her mission to travel the world. Fairly sure I'd read that.

is_that_so

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Apocalypse Cow: How meat killed the planet, is on C4 at 10pm tonight. Would make great viewing for all the farmers in this thread. Our hero George Monbiot argues that current farming practices are destroying the planet and will be obselete in 50 years. When you see the damage Ag does here in Ireland i hope he's right.

Also didn't see the programme but some messengers put you right off. He's been off on his own agenda for as long as David Icke!

Slowyourrole

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

So this ‘climate change’ in Australia was actually arsonists starting these fires maliciously.

I don't think there was ever a suggestion that the climate ignited the fires. There has to be a source of ignition. Where the climate change comes in is in how much the fires took and how hard they have been to put out.

weldoninhio

Slowyourrole wrote: »

I don't think there was ever a suggestion that the climate ignited the fires. There has to be a source of ignition. Where the climate change comes in is in how much the fires took and how hard they have been to put out.

Nothing to do with the ban on clearing fires, which previously had been carried out since Aboriginal times? and the accumulation of fuel for fires, no fire breaks etc??

Slowyourrole

weldoninhio wrote: »

Nothing to do with the ban on clearing fires, which previously had been carried out since Aboriginal times? and the accumulation of fuel for fires, no fire breaks etc??

I'm sure it all had an effect. None of that negates the climate change contribution which has seen Australia become hotter and drier than ever before.

Tell me how

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

So this ‘climate change’ in Australia was actually arsonists starting these fires maliciously.

You should look in to it a bit more before making statements that show your lack of knowledge on the matter.

Arsonists always are around, but, the conditions have been exacerbated by the climate to the point where the current situation is ongoing.

Tell me how

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Apocalypse Cow: How meat killed the planet, is on C4 at 10pm tonight. Would make great viewing for all the farmers in this thread. Our hero George Monbiot argues that current farming practices are destroying the planet and will be obselete in 50 years. When you see the damage Ag does here in Ireland i hope he's right.

I wouldn't go so far as to blindly agree with that. For the most part, Irish agriculture is maintaining the land much more than harming it.

We could easily make statements that the problem is manufacturing because of the resource heavy industries and the pollutants they create.
Or that it is solely the issue of car drivers in single occupancy vehicles who are the problem. Or the energy sector reliance on fossil fuels.

All areas should be looked at to optimise efficiency in every way possible rather than just pointing the finger and blaming one thing. (Not that you are doing that here per say).

Thelonious Monk

Tell me how wrote: »

I wouldn't go so far as to blindly agree with that. For the most part, Irish agriculture is maintaining the land much more than harming it.

We could easily make statements that the problem is manufacturing because of the resource heavy industries and the pollutants they create.
Or that it is solely the issue of car drivers in single occupancy vehicles who are the problem. Or the energy sector reliance on fossil fuels.

All areas should be looked at to optimise efficiency in every way possible rather than just pointing the finger and blaming one thing. (Not that you are doing that here per say).

The recent report on waterways gave ag as the biggest pollutant in Ireland, I suppose I'm basing it on that. Most of our uplands are bare of trees too because of sheep.