Greta and the aristocrat sail the high seas to save the planet.

windy shepard henderson

KyussB wrote: »

Hmm? Not sure why people in the Midlands would be losing their jobs - but the Green New Deal implements a Job Guarantee, which allows pretty much any type of job that would be deemed socially useful - which doesn't have to be limited to only profitable jobs (e.g. stuff like organizing community events, even just caring for an elderly family member etc.).

Ideally, though - there would be an emphasis on climate-focused jobs, while that is an emergency - and the breadth of work needed there, is pretty enormous and varied.

The purpose of the Job Guarantee is that nobody who wants a job would be out of a job.

Two power stations are to close, I am asking what is the alternative for the towns of Shannonbridge and lanesbourough, these power stations are closing due to environmental issues

What has the green party put in place for these areas realying on these stations for work

If you are going to close these places for environmental reasons there needs to be something put in place to replace the jobs

Fresh air won't pay the bills

KyussB

The Green Party in Ireland don't impress me much, I don't associate them with the Green New Deal - but if a GND were implemented, in the style of the US version (I'd go further than that one, even) - then that would provide a Job Guarantee, whch means those workers would always have another job.

The GND also contains retraining programs for ex-fossil-fuel-industry workers, to retrain them into new areas of work.

Tuisceanch

KyussB wrote: »

Not universally true, but it's extremely frequent. An interesting conflict of interest (sorry, this is pretty long now :P) was the recent pensions thread: People with large private pension posts have an inherent monetary stake in economic conservatism and finance (though it doesn't necessarily influence their views), and I suspect that may be a big motivator for people to buy-in to all of this stuff (and interestingly, now: the government has implemeted auto-enrollment into private pensions, creating this kind of conflict/pressure for everyone who doesn't opt out...so yea, I suspect this could be a fairly subtle form of vote-buyer for economic conservatism).

Oh I would apply it to that situation. Everyone has a right to stand up for their well being and whatever privileges they've legitimately earned. I just can't be persuaded, that when faced with grave problems, that we're not capable of acting together, or indeed shouldn't, to explore alternative ways to fix something which is clearly broken. People who seek to sow seeds of doubt based on deliberate misinformation campaigns in order to pursue the interests of a very small minority at the expense of everybody else are only symptomatic of a well understood, at least by Irish people, divide and rule stratagem.

Tuisceanch

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

Two power stations are to close, I am asking what is the alternative for the towns of Shannonbridge and lanesbourough, these power stations are closing due to environmental issues

What has the green party put in place for these areas realying on these stations for work

If you are going to close these places for environmental reasons there needs to be something put in place to replace the jobs

Fresh air won't pay the bills

But aren't they being closed under a FG government. I understand that it's on environmental grounds,although I don't know the specifics, but it can't surely be blamed on the Green party if they're not in power.

Oh I see that the planning application had been opposed by An Taisce and other environmental groups.

"An Bord Pleanála stated the reasons and considerations for its ruling were: "It is considered that the provision of a regionally significant power generating facility, dependent upon the burning of a fuel imported into the facility, needs to be associated with and aligned with strategic energy management, planning and renewable energy policies and plans in order to achieve balanced, orderly development."

""Finally, it is considered that the cessation of the use of peat as a fuel is essential in addressing the generation of excessive greenhouse emissions from the established facility to assist in meeting the State's climate change obligations in the energy sector."

Well all the more reason that a plan of whatever hue, should have being in place as a matter of contingency. A responsible joined up government should know it can't play lip service to commitments it makes.

Tell me how

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

Two power stations are to close, I am asking what is the alternative for the towns of Shannonbridge and lanesbourough, these power stations are closing due to environmental issues

What has the green party put in place for these areas realying on these stations for work

If you are going to close these places for environmental reasons there needs to be something put in place to replace the jobs

Fresh air won't pay the bills

I'm sure you are aware that Roche and Molex are also in winding down phases. Devastating for Clare region.

Do you think similarly that there needs to be something out in place to replace those jobs?

windy shepard henderson

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm sure you are aware that Roche and Molex are also in winding down phases. Devastating for Clare region.

Do you think similarly that there needs to be something out in place to replace those jobs?

Them two power stations are closing due to environmental reasons, the green party are the political face of environmental issues,

They have been pushing for years for all peat and coal burning stations to be closed, I want to know what is there alternative

If you want people to fall into line with climate change, you have to offer an alternative, what is the alternative to these two stations closing

And for what it's worth they are closing because of pressure put on the esb to find alternative ways of producing electricity, now the pressure has paid off what are they going to do now in terms of replacing them jobs

Molex and Roche were never put under pressure to close due to environmental reasons

jackboy

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm sure you are aware that Roche and Molex are also in winding down phases. Devastating for Clare region.

Do you think similarly that there needs to be something out in place to replace those jobs?

They are two private companies pulling out. The power stations are closing due to government policy.

windy shepard henderson

jackboy wrote: »

They are two private companies pulling out. The power stations are closing due to government policy.

The power stations are closing due to years of pressure from environmentalists including the green party

KyussB

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

Them two power stations are closing due to environmental reasons, the green party are the political face of environmental issues,

They have been pushing for years for all peat and coal burning stations to be closed, I want to know what is there alternative

If you want people to fall into line with climate change, you have to offer an alternative, what is the alternative to these two stations closing

And for what it's worth they are closing because of pressure put on the esb to find alternative ways of producing electricity, now the pressure has paid off what are they going to do now in terms of replacing them jobs

Molex and Roche were never put under pressure to close due to environmental reasons

One alternative - just a piece of the overall climate solution - would be R&D to reduce rare earth requirements for e.g. solar and other renewables, slap hybrid water/energy solar panels on the surfaces of every building, with battery storage and buried/insulated heat storage combined with a heat pump system, with homes retrofitted for energy efficiency - so that homes can provide all of their own electric/heat energy from the sun, and can even give back to the grid - thus more than offsetting the energy contribution of those power plants (and many others).

There is some technological low hanging fruit out there, in terms of R&D, which are tantalizing in their ability to effectively solve a significant chunk of our carbon emission problems within quite a short period of time - if enough effort was put into them.

Tell me how

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

Them two power stations are closing due to environmental reasons, the green party are the political face of environmental issues,

They have been pushing for years for all peat and coal burning stations to be closed, I want to know what is there alternative

If you want people to fall into line with climate change, you have to offer an alternative, what is the alternative to these two stations closing

And for what it's worth they are closing because of pressure put on the esb to find alternative ways of producing electricity, now the pressure has paid off what are they going to do now in terms of replacing them jobs

Molex and Roche were never put under pressure to close due to environmental reasons

Which do you think is more likely to upset people?
Losing their job after being told for years that the industry they were in had to change for environmental reasons?
Or losing their job at relatively short notice because a corporation wanted to increase profits by moving elsewhere?

The whole, it has been pushed for years was in itself a warning to people, ye need to consider upskilling, reskilling, downgrading, moving, or any other alternatives that, unfortunately, many people have to pursue every day.

windy shepard henderson

KyussB wrote: »

One alternative - just a piece of the overall climate solution - would be R&D to reduce rare earth requirements for e.g. solar and other renewables, slap hybrid water/energy solar panels on the surfaces of every building, with battery storage and buried/insulated heat storage combined with a heat pump system, with homes retrofitted for energy efficiency - so that homes can provide all of their own electric/heat energy from the sun, and can even give back to the grid - thus more than offsetting the energy contribution of those power plants (and many others).

There is some technological low hanging fruit out there, in terms of R&D, which are tantalizing in their ability to effectively solve a significant chunk of our carbon emission problem within quite a short period of time - if enough effort was put into them.

How is this going to pay people's mortgages in the next few years, that's why alternatives need to be put in place now,

windy shepard henderson

Tell me how wrote: »

Which do you think is more likely to upset people?
Losing their job after being told for years that the industry they were in had to change for environmental reasons?
Or losing their job at relatively short notice because a corporation wanted to increase profits by moving elsewhere?

The whole, it has been pushed for years was in itself a warning to people, ye need to consider upskilling, reskilling, downgrading, moving, or any other alternatives that, unfortunately, many people have to pursue every day.

I dare you to head up to the Midlands with this theory and see what people think of it

suicide_circus

KyussB wrote: »

The Green Party in Ireland don't impress me much

So the've got the brains but do they have the touch?

KyussB

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

How is this going to pay people's mortgages in the next few years, that's why alternatives need to be put in place now,

Then lobby for the government to get started on the type of work I describe, and hire them into it - immediately...it is an emergency, after all.

Tell me how

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

The power stations are closing due to years of pressure from environmentalists including the green party

The power stations are closing due to a realisation that they are, in part, causing excessive damage to the environment which is contributing to a global crisis which is likely to have serious impacts on future generations.

Do you think environmentalists got up one morning and just decided to badmouth the fossil fuel industry?

jackboy

Tell me how wrote: »

Which do you think is more likely to upset people?
Losing their job after being told for years that the industry they were in had to change for environmental reasons?
Or losing their job at relatively short notice because a corporation wanted to increase profits by moving elsewhere?

The whole, it has been pushed for years was in itself a warning to people, ye need to consider upskilling, reskilling, downgrading, moving, or any other alternatives that, unfortunately, many people have to pursue every day.

The government could have given the power stations a five year closure date. This would have given employees plenty time to upskill and given the government time to try and bring replacement jobs to the locality.

Tell me how

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

I dare you to head up to the Midlands with this theory and see what people think of it

So? Do you think people in Clarecastle are pleased with the impact the Roche wind down has had on the village?

Do you think in 2008 - 2012 companies stayed open because they couldn't face the wrath of the community if they closed?

Tell me how

jackboy wrote: »

The government could have given the power stations a five year closure date. This would have given employees plenty time to upskill and given the government time to try and bring replacement jobs to the locality.

WSH said that they have been pushing to close these for years. That was the time to upskill.

I know that was certainly the case with Moneypoint which was first mooted for closure over 15 years ago.

jackboy

Tell me how wrote: »

WSH said that they have been pushing to close these for years. That was the time to upskill.

I know that was certainly the case with Moneypoint which was first mooted for closure over 15 years ago.

Upskilling is only useful if new jobs and industries are brought to the locality. This must be done before the site closures.

windy shepard henderson

Tell me how wrote: »

So? Do you think people in Clarecastle are pleased with the impact the Roche wind down has had on the village?

Do you think in 2008 - 2012 companies stayed open because they couldn't face the wrath of the community if they closed?

Complete nonsense, these places are being closed for environmental purposes, if you want people to buy into these changes there needs to be alteratives put in place

This a completely different reason then a down turn in employment

I actually want to back these changes but if nothing is offered alternatively it's impossible to back

Tell me how

jackboy wrote: »

Upskilling is only useful if new jobs and industries are brought to the locality. This must be done before the site closures.

Can you give me an example where that happened for any other industry?

When Dell closed in Limerick, was there a ready made employer standing in line for the 10,000 (core and ancillary) jobs which were affected?

I mean, Clare TD, Pat Breen is minister for state for trade and employment and there has been no mention of alternatives going in to the Roche plant.
The former Schwarz Pharma plant in Shannon has been on a slow decline and I think is due to close its doors imminently, where are the alternatives 'provided' for those workers?

windy shepard henderson

Tell me how wrote: »

Can you give me an example where that happened for any other industry?

When Dell closed in Limerick, was there a ready made employer standing in line for the 10,000 (core and ancillary) jobs which were affected?

I mean, Clare TD, Pat Breen is minister for state for trade and employment and there has been no mention of alternatives going in to the Roche plant.
The former Schwarz Pharma plant in Shannon has been on a slow decline and I think is due to close its doors imminently, where are the alternatives 'provided' for those workers?

You keep talking about other industries, if you want people to change you have to offer alternative options, not look at other industries

Tell me how

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

You keep talking about other industries, if you want people to change you have to offer alternative options, not look at other industries

What? Why?
Why should the fossil fuel industry get special treatment?

The reason for change in this instance is for the betterment of society? Why should that be postponed so that no one is affected, unlike other industries?

This, as you have said yourself, has been on the cards. Just last month Bord Na Mona announced plans to redeploy staff. Is that not an effort to support workers in a way the other industries I have mentioned do not have the luxury of doing?

KyussB

I mean (in reply to windy), alternatives have already been posted. How about an extensive R&D lab for renewable tech (especially substituting rare earths), and a manufacturing facility for trialing it? (plenty of construction jobs, and time to train people into these fields while building)

Pay them to retrofit their own homes for energy efficiency in the locality, and setup central operatons there for doing this all over the country?

Pay them to build houses, even - since the country is crying out for it - and the government needs to be directly employing people into this.

I mean, there is no shortage of useful work to be done, and no shortage of avenues for starting work that is (at the beginning) low skilled enough, to have enough time on the side for training up into higher skilled stuff.

Just need to fucking get doing it. The government could issue bonds (at practically 0% interest) and gather the money to fund it tomorrow and land all those people in decent jobs, that help our housing crisis and help with arresting climate change.

The only thing preventing it is the lack of political will. So you just need to lobby government - or better yet, force them into doing it with direct political action - e.g. general strikes or such (people really underestimate their collective power over the government).

windy shepard henderson

Tell me how wrote: »

What? Why?
Why should the fossil fuel industry get special treatment?

The reason for change in this instance is for the betterment of society? Why should that be postponed so that no one is affected, unlike other industries?

This, as you have said yourself, has been on the cards. Just last month Bord Na Mona announced plans to redeploy staff. Is that not an effort to support workers in a way the other industries I have mentioned do not have the luxury of doing?

Why do you think, a large number of people believe climate change is a hoax, others don't want to change there lifestyle because it would effect there income

How the hell are you going to get people to change, it is completely different to businesses going to the wall because of a down turn, nobody will buy into the next phase if there is nothing offered alternatively in terms of employment now

Tell me how

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

Why do you think, a large number of people believe climate change is a hoax, others don't want to change there lifestyle because it would effect there income

How the hell are you going to get people to change, it is completely different to businesses going to the wall because of a down turn, nobody will buy into the next phase if there is nothing offered alternatively in terms of employment now

In a similar vein to the approach taken by the revenue commissioners in terms of tax non-payment, ignorance is not an excuse.

Bord Na Mona and the ESB probably have less than 10k workers between them. Should action on the environment, potentially affecting millions be postponed so as to to prevent them having to find alternative solutions.

Bear in mind, as already been said, this has been on the cards for a long time, Bord na Mona are seeking to redeploy people where possible.

windy shepard henderson

Tell me how wrote: »

In a similar vein to the approach taken by the revenue commissioners in terms of tax non-payment, ignorance is not an excuse.

Bord Na Mona and the ESB probably have less than 10k workers between them. Should action on the environment, potentially affecting millions be postponed so as to to prevent them having to find alternative solutions.

Bear in mind, as already been said, this has been on the cards for a long time, Bord na Mona are seeking to redeploy people where possible.

If you want to make all these changes to suit climate change, then yes you must have ready made alternatives available to the areas affected

Otherwise people will not buy into it long term

KyussB

There are ready alternatives, ready to be implemented - they've been repeatedly posted to you - there is just no political will to implement them...

I mean do you really think FG is going to engage in government-spending-friendly policy? No...

What FG will do, is implement harsh/opportunistic climate policies, instead of ones which have a bigger more all-encompassing plan - and they do ths because they know full well it will generate a backlash against climate issues - FG are actually an enemy of fighting climate change, so they will deliberately be ham-fisted with any such policy, to deliberately generate a backlash against climate issues as a whole.

jackboy

Tell me how wrote: »

I mean, Clare TD, Pat Breen is minister for state for trade and employment and there has been no mention of alternatives going in to the Roche plant.
The former Schwarz Pharma plant in Shannon has been on a slow decline and I think is due to close its doors imminently, where are the alternatives 'provided' for those workers?

There are jobs available to the vast majority of these employees in Galway and limerick, which is reasonably local. There are no such jobs available for the power plant workers in their localities as there are no other power plants nearby. That is why the government should give these employees an extended period of time to change careers.

Tell me how

jackboy wrote: »

There are jobs available to the vast majority of these employees in Galway and limerick, which is reasonably local. There are no such jobs available for the power plant workers in their localities as there are no other power plants nearby. That is why the government should give these employees an extended period of time to change careers.

How much time, there has been talk of shutting down power stations for close to 20 years.

Also, who works there?

Machine operators?
Fitters?
Electricians,
Administration staff?

Are these skills not transferable for virtually all these people?