The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

blanch152

Gachla wrote: »

I want fair play. Buying titles with millions of euro in an amateur sport is about as far from fair play as you can get. Why do you think buying titles is ok?

No, I didn't say that Dublin are buying titles.

I asked whether you wanted fair and even competition. If you do, then splitting Kerry and amalgamating other counties have to be on the agenda. If you don't, and are only fixated on Dublin, then there really isn't any point discussing things with you.

ToBeFrank123

odyssey06 wrote: »

Where did you learn your phrasings, from the lawyer who invented the 'when did you stop beating your wife' approach?

The premise of your question is rejected as baseless and insulting and utterly without merit.
I think you have your sports confused.

The GAA needs a strong Dublin. Bring on 5 in a row and an all ireland for the hurlers.

Of course it needs a strong Dublin. It doesn't need a financially doped Frankenstein though which is what it currently is. The GAA needs a number of counties at a very similar level to be competitive and viable and to sustain that strength over many years so there are long term rivalries that attract the attention of a paying public. Its very simple. Yet even the GAA have managed to screw up this basic premise.

Gachla

Number of Dublin titles since 2001, Leinster, All Ireland and National League titles:

Men's senior football: 26
Men's senior hurling: 2
Men's u20/21 football: 15
Men's u21 hurling: 4
Men's minor football: 8
Men's minor hurling: 6
Ladies senior footballers: 11 - (8 Leinsters in a row, 3 All Ireland's, can't find Leinster records)
Men's club football - 14
Men's club hurling - 4
Ladies club football - 12

That adds up to 102 titles and there's some missing! That's crazy. I'm not going to do it tonight but I'll do a comparison to the 18 year period prior to the funding to see how much the money has made a difference another time.

Gachla

odyssey06 wrote: »

Where did you learn your phrasings, from the lawyer who invented the 'when did you stop beating your wife' approach?

The premise of your question is rejected as baseless and insulting and utterly without merit.
I think you have your sports confused.

The GAA needs a strong Dublin. Bring on 5 in a row and an all ireland for the hurlers.

So you're happy to buy titles?

Gachla

blanch152 wrote: »

No, I didn't say that Dublin are buying titles.

I asked whether you wanted fair and even competition. If you do, then splitting Kerry and amalgamating other counties have to be on the agenda. If you don't, and are only fixated on Dublin, then there really isn't any point discussing things with you.

No other county has taken millions of euro of all of us to buy titles so no other county should be affected by it. Dublin took the Bertie fund, they went down that path, they will have to suffer the consequences.

odyssey06

Gachla wrote: »

That adds up to 102 titles and there's some missing! That's crazy. I'm not going to do it tonight but I'll do a comparison to the 18 year period prior to the funding to see how much the money has made a difference another time.

Save yourself the time.

Correlation is not causation.
We have other counties sweeping up titles without increased funding. Ergo funding is not a sufficient explanation for success in the amateur territory based GAA sports.
It might be in professional sports with player transfers.

odyssey06

Gachla wrote: »

No other county has taken millions of euro of all of us to buy titles so no other county should be affected by it. Dublin took the Bertie fund, they went down that path, they will have to suffer the consequences.

The whole country is suffering because of Bertie and Fianna Fail.

But if you are talking specifically about GAA come back to planet earth.

odyssey06

Gachla wrote: »

So you're happy to buy titles?

I hear they are going to bring Bertie on for the last kick of the all ireland for a victory lap. He has to pay off the ref.

Ask a stupid question.
Get a stupid answer.

ToBeFrank123

odyssey06 wrote: »

Save yourself the time.

Correlation is not causation.
We have other counties sweeping up titles without increased funding. Ergo funding is not a sufficient explanation for success in the amateur territory based GAA sports.
It might be in professional sports with player transfers.

I wonder if someone did a similar comparison of Man City titles before and after they were bought out would people say correlation is not causation. Financial doping has long been proven to make a difference in sport.

Gachla

odyssey06 wrote: »

Save yourself the time.

Correlation is not causation.
We have other counties sweeping up titles without increased funding. Ergo funding is not a sufficient explanation for success in the amateur territory based GAA sports.
It might be in professional sports with player transfers.

In an amateur sport where player transfers are not allowed, creating your own players is the biggest game changer in how a county competes. Having millions of euros pumped into pay professional coaches and officials to oversee Dublin's underage system has transformed Dublin GAA beyond recognition. GPO's within the county note the change in standards as staggering. Why should we doubt these people?

Gachla

odyssey06 wrote: »

The whole country is suffering because of Bertie and Fianna Fail.

But if you are talking specifically about GAA come back to planet earth.

The Bertie fund has transformed Dublin GAA!

Gachla

odyssey06 wrote: »

I hear they are going to bring Bertie on for the last kick of the all ireland for a victory lap. He has to pay off the ref.

Ask a stupid question.
Get a stupid answer.

I'll take that as a yes.

ToBeFrank123

odyssey06 wrote: »

The whole country is suffering because of Bertie and Fianna Fail.

But if you are talking specifically about GAA come back to planet earth.

He admitted himself he diverted money from dept of finance in the 1990s to Dublin GAA.

We also have it from Pauric Duffy that increased funding in the 2000s was down to Bertie.

Gachla

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I wonder if someone did a similar comparison of man city titles before and after they were bought out would people say correlation is not causation. Financial doping has long been proven to make a difference in sport.

Imagine if Man city fans started claiming that it had nothing to do with the money, their players just work harder, they have better volunteers, everyone else are just lazy and useless, it's just begrudgery etc. It would be laughed at, it's the same story here with Dublin supporters.

odyssey06

Gachla wrote: »

I'll take that as a yes.

I see you are still attached to your 'when did you stop beating your wife type questions'.
Reasonable debate is impossible when such pathetic debating tactics are resorted to in posts.
It is so obvious what you are trying to do with the wording of your questions. You arent fooling or impressing anyone.

Gonad

Gachla wrote: »

Imagine if Man city fans started claiming that it had nothing to do with the money, their players just work harder, they have better volunteers, everyone else are just lazy and useless, it's just begrudgery etc. It would be laughed at, it's the same story here with Dublin supporters.

But Man City spent millions buying players from all over the world

If the new Man City owners came in and gave the manager 500 million to spend on coaches and infrastructure do you think they would be able to suddenly rise up and dominate the way Dublin are at the moment ?

Football is a simple game and Dublin are just blessed that they have such a great bunch of players coming through and a fantastic coach . If Jim Gavin left next year and a new coach came in that could change everything and Dublin might be back to the level they were 10 years ago .

Last Stop

Gachla wrote: »

Number of Dublin titles since 2001, Leinster, All Ireland and National League titles:

Men's senior football: 26
Men's senior hurling: 2
Men's u20/21 football: 15
Men's u21 hurling: 4
Men's minor football: 8
Men's minor hurling: 6
Ladies senior footballers: 11 - (8 Leinsters in a row, 3 All Ireland's, can't find Leinster records)
Men's club football - 14
Men's club hurling - 4
Ladies club football - 12

That adds up to 102 titles and there's some missing! That's crazy. I'm not going to do it tonight but I'll do a comparison to the 18 year period prior to the funding to see how much the money has made a difference another time.

Looking at those figures, almost 85% are football! To me this rings some serious alarm bells and poses serious questions:
1. Why hasn’t their been more success in hurling where there are 10 main counties competing compared to football where there is 33.
2. The figures paint a rather skewed picture, the 4 club hurling are all the one club who couldn’t even get out of Dublin last year. It would be more interesting to see a comparison based on funding vs titles. I’d imagine that will give a true reflection of the figures

Again I think this really highlights the flaws in Gaelic football over anything else. Dublin hurling has all the same advantages (population, facilities, funding etc.) yet have won a total of just 12 inter county titles over the past 17 years. While I know that other counties are traditionally stronger, remember that in the same time period Kilkenny have beaten 6 different counties in All Ireland finals alone not to mention 4 different winners in each province. Based on this, I would again suggest that the success of Dublin football is not down to funding but down to the lack of skill involved in modern Gaelic football. If rules or similar were brought in that put an emphasis on skills rather than athleticism then other counties would gain significantly. It is very easy to turn a guy who is 6ft3 into an athlete but it is far harder to teach him how to kick of both feet etc. That only comes from lads playing 24/7. This is why I believe Dublin have failed to deliver in hurling. Yes there are some guys who live hurling 24/7 but it has certainly not got to the stage like Kilkenny where you see lads pucking at every corner. The same for Kerry in football.
If you want to look to other sports, the likes of New Zealand are so good because lads are playing like in the school yard. I’m 100% certain that Beauden Barrett gained most of his skills from playing a game of rugby at lunchtime in school. Sure it has been refined since but the natural talent was made at a young age.

On the note of financial management, it was noted how poorly some counties are run but it should also be noted how well others are run. Kilkenny have ran a profit for many years now despite the expense of getting to All Ireland’s and have built a fine stadium and centre of excellence. I’m sure there are other counties who have similar success stories

rebel girl 15

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

He admitted himself he diverted money from dept of finance in the 1990s to Dublin GAA.

We also have it from Pauric Duffy that increased funding in the 2000s was down to Bertie.

That’s an outright lie to say he “diverted money” as that just sounds like there was something underhand going on.

The county board chairman at the time went to Bertie for help, and they were able to ring fence some funding for coaching and player development but was done through the schools - many counties at the time were getting money as well but were putting it into their stadiums. Other counties were free to copy the programme but none did.

What many of you fail to mention is the strict conditions this was done under. Each club which met strict criteria would be provided €25,000 of the €45,000 needed to hire a full time coach, with the rest of the money raised by the clubs themselves. The clubs were linked to schools - which is why the money was available - it had to be linked to schools, which actually is badly needed. Croke Park weren’t interested

Sheep breeder

odyssey06 wrote: »

One wonders why Ireland, Uruguay, Croatia, Sweden, Denmark bother to turn up for soccer internationals. Never mind Finland. Yet consistently in soccer we see results that belie population figures.

Kerry has the same population as Wicklow.
Cork has nearly 4 times the population as Kerry.
I'd like to see the correlation chart between population and All Irelands, because it doesn't seem to a strong relationship.

Cork also has 9 times the population of Monaghan.
If you want to talk about population discrepancies, Dublin is just the start of the conversation.

Kerry have a county board that want to win and Wicklow have no county board and only individuals for their own clubs first.

gaffer91

I really don't know why it's so hard for certain people to accept that money is an important factor in sporting success in the 21st century.

Dublin GAA have received and continue to receive millions more in funding from GAA HQ and other sources. This, combined with their other advantages such as population and home advantage (some might even say a few favourable refs for All Ireland Finals too ) help them to win many more titles than they otherwise would. The playing field is now so skewed that the inter- county game is in jeopardy.

That's really all there is to this argument and debate. It's actually staggering that posters can argue against these obviously factual statements for page after page and seem not to actually comprehend or understand all the evidence to the contrary of their ridiculous arguments.

ArielAtom

My old Grandad a proud Clare man who hurled with the great Mick Mackey in Ahane gave some advice a long time ago. He said, never argue with a man more stupid than yourself, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. I am now heeding his advice. Enjoy ladies and gents, fill yer boots.

ToBeFrank123

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

That’s an outright lie to say he “diverted money” as that just sounds like there was something underhand going on.

The county board chairman at the time went to Bertie for help, and they were able to ring fence some funding for coaching and player development but was done through the schools - many counties at the time were getting money as well but were putting it into their stadiums. Other counties were free to copy the programme but none did.

What many of you fail to mention is the strict conditions this was done under. Each club which met strict criteria would be provided €25,000 of the €45,000 needed to hire a full time coach, with the rest of the money raised by the clubs themselves. The clubs were linked to schools - which is why the money was available - it had to be linked to schools, which actually is badly needed. Croke Park weren’t interested

Here is the article related to his time as minister for finance.

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/bertie-ahern-explains-how-he-helped-finance-the-dublin-gaa-revolution-37366135.html

Ahern agreed to fund a coaching revolution in Dublin. Croke Park showed no interest at first. They were focused on the redevelopment of HQ. But eventually GAA bosses, worried about player participation level in the capital, warmed to the idea. The project was introduced on the basis that it was a pilot. If it worked in Dublin, it could be rolled out elsewhere.

"I could bring it through Finance because it involved coaching kids," Ahern explains. "It was school, it was afterschool . . . we had to gear the whole thing back to school because that was the only way I could justify it. I said it would have to be absolutely transparent and public, because I'd get hammered [otherwise], and that's what we did.

"We put it up as a pilot project, and I made a few speeches. I built it into the estimates that it was a pilot that would continue in Dublin, and if other people wanted to add in bits later on, fine, but Dublin would remain, and that's what I did. I did it on the basis that GAA in Dublin wasn't dead but it was weak."

By building the project into the estimates, Ahern ensured that it was set in stone even if he moved out of Finance. Of course, the fact that he went on to be Taoiseach helped too.

Clubs were forced to adhere to strict rules and it took quite some time for the project to build momentum. To Ahern it wasn't rocket science. He spent his holidays in Kerry, where they had been doing all that without State aid for generations. "You have to butter the bread," he says, "before you put the sambo together."

This happened in the early 90s. Money from government sources ie dept of finance, in Berties words. It couldn't be clearer.

Where else was it rolled out?

We've been over the stadium thing. Also there in black and white re Parnell Park.

Sheep breeder

tikkahunter wrote: »

Because they got their act together and set out a plan from grass roots up . I’m involved with my clubs nursery , we have a set of drills and stations that are rotating every 4 weeks . Girls and boys from 5-7 some cases 4 years old learn to kick , hand pass , throw and catch and use a hurl through games that they enjoy - no matches take place just games that bring on their hand to eye co ordination and physical development. So from September through to finishing up in June the majority can can kick with both feet and pass with both hands and that does not cost a penny and it’s the same through all age groups in the club , a plan is set out and it is stuck to and no mentor or coach gets a penny for it . It’s a handy excuse to just say it’s money that has brought success but go down to any Dublin club and watch the dedicated players, mentors and coaches who do it for the love of the game and sacrifice earnings and free time for it and tell them they are only successful through funding - it’s a bollox excuse for their own counties lack of groundwork.

Very good post, the same thing happens throughout the country, example in the weak counties there are the strong clubs and the same ethos is applied as above and that’s how they are successful within their own county without any money.

rebel girl 15

Gachla wrote: »

Number of Dublin titles since 2001, Leinster, All Ireland and National League titles:

Men's senior football: 26
Men's senior hurling: 2
Men's u20/21 football: 15
Men's u21 hurling: 4
Men's minor football: 8
Men's minor hurling: 6
Ladies senior footballers: 11 - (8 Leinsters in a row, 3 All Ireland's, can't find Leinster records)
Men's club football - 14
Men's club hurling - 4
Ladies club football - 12

That adds up to 102 titles and there's some missing! That's crazy. I'm not going to do it tonight but I'll do a comparison to the 18 year period prior to the funding to see how much the money has made a difference another time.

Ladies club football is wrong and if you are only counting senior and not other grades it’s two AI and 4 Leinsters afaik - Foxrock lost last year’s final but you have to go back to 93 and 94 for the last time they won a senior All Ireland, which is what you have for the men’s competitions.

2 senior club All Ireland - Ballyboden x2, 4 senior Leinsters but could be more
1 intermediate All Ireland - Clontarf plus at least 4 Leinster
3 junior All Ireland plus at least four Leinsters

rebel girl 15

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Kerry have a county board that want to win and Wicklow have no county board and only individuals for their own clubs first.

The politics on county boards can be worse than government - I’ve sat on two and a provincial council, so can say that with first hand insight.

That statement is a huge reason why other counties - even if you plunged millions into them still wouldn’t be successful. Officers whose sole interest is in making sure their own club is sorted as opposed to the bigger county picture.

rebel girl 15

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Very good post, the same thing happens throughout the country, example in the weak counties there are the strong clubs and the same ethos is applied as above and that’s how they are successful within their own county without any money.

Pretty much the story of the success of the Cork ladies - Rockban, Rockchapel and Naomh Abán had won an Al Ireland intermediate, (Rocks also both winning junior titles, Donoughmore had won 2 senior AI but there was no mixing on the county team until Mary and Eamonn took over and broke down those club barriers

Something similar was said about Galway hurling - one of the most competitive club championships, clubs getting into AI series but couldn’t get if together on the county stage

tikkahunter

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Very good post, the same thing happens throughout the country, example in the weak counties there are the strong clubs and the same ethos is applied as above and that’s how they are successful within their own county without any money.

Its kind of like a successful soccer team like say Barca up to a few years ago , they play a certain type of football and play a dedicated way , So all the youth teams are thought to play like this and dont deviate from it so when the younger players reach the first team they slot in and know how to play in that system.

Sheep breeder

I see this in my local club at under age level with the 13 and 15 sides, the guys that coach both played together and were different types, the 15 have a guy that was a very stylish forward that could win a game with a bit of magic and all the team plays with a bit of skill and swagger, the 13 guy was a midfielder work horse and his team play like that and no stand out player. I personally believe coaching is everything. This is the life blood of the gaa and the love of the game.

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Nope but then Kilkenny had been winning titles on a regular basis. Its not like they went from being very poor to very good after a massive injection of cash.

But you are confusing cause and effect - Kilkenny were not underachieving.
St Kieran's college is thier academy of sorts and that was thier hurling school.

Dublin were underachieving they were not being run properly overall - they had no plan no structure - basically a sleeping giant.
Now they are and this has coincided with the best generation of players ever seen - so it is a perfect storm of sorts.

Also as I have pointed out if it was solely due to funding - Dublin would be going for five in a row in the club football, club hurling and inter-county hurling.
But that is not the case - why? because the players are not as good at those levels/codes, and throwing money at players does not make them beat all comers all of sudden.

I know your argument is purely based on cutting funding.
Which is fair enough.
That is your point of view and it does have some validity considering the state of some counties.

But the less enlightened posters on this thread go one step further and say Dublin 'brought titles' - and Jim Gavin has had nothing to do with Dublin's success.
There are no praise for the players from such people - which is a bit pathetic
It is just plain daft, and it demonstrates to me the level of hatred and jealousy some have towards a great man, a great team, and great people.
Which is sad in many ways, but such is life.

If Dublin wanted to buy a title they would have forward line with Clifford-Murphy in it etc. It would be Parnell's 2008 moneybags on an inter-county scale - players getting transfers to Dublin clubs - and playing for Dublin.

Ironically if any person could be accused of the closest thing to buying players was Micko.
At Kildare he got Lacey - from Tipp - his son O'Dwyer from Kerry (Kerry were even talking of wanting Karol back) etc
Micko would get players from anywhere he could, using his charisma
That is part of the reason why they rose so fast.

O'Dwyer also got Sheehan to transfer to Laois from Kerry.
And he got Thomas Walsh to transfer from Carlow to Wicklow.

That is nothing akin to what Dublin are doing, they are doing it the natural way not poaching players. A special group of lads who played through the age groups together and happened click under a class manager.

RoyalCelt

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But you are confusing cause and effect - Kilkenny were not underachieving.
St Kieran's college is thier academy of sorts and that was thier hurling school.

Dublin were underachieving they were not being run properly overall - they had no plan no structure - basically a sleeping giant.
Now they are and this has coincided with the best generation of players ever seen - so it is a perfect storm of sorts.

Also as I have pointed out if it was solely due to funding - Dublin would be going for five in a row in the club football, club hurling and inter-county hurling.
But that is not the case - why? because the players are not as good at those levels/codes, and throwing money at players does not make them beat all comers all of sudden.

I know your argument is purely based on cutting funding.
Which is fair enough.
That is your point of view and it does have some validity considering the state of some counties.

But the less enlightened posters on this thread go one step further and say Dublin 'brought titles' - and Jim Gavin has had nothing to do with Dublin's success.
There are no praise for the players from such people - which is a bit pathetic
It is just plain daft, and it demonstrates to me the level of hatred and jealousy some have towards a great man, a great team, and great people.
Which is sad in many ways, but such is life.

If Dublin wanted to buy a title they would have forward line with Clifford-Murphy in it etc. It would be Parnell's 2008 moneybags on an inter-county scale - players getting transfers to Dublin clubs - and playing for Dublin.

Ironically if any person could be accused of the closest thing to buying players was Micko.
At Kildare he got Lacey - from Tipp - his son O'Dwyer from Kerry (Kerry were even talking of wanting Karol back) etc
Micko would get players from anywhere he could, using his charisma
That is part of the reason why they rose so fast.

O'Dwyer also got Sheehan to transfer to Laois from Kerry.
And he got Thomas Walsh to transfer from Carlow to Wicklow.

That is nothing akin to what Dublin are doing, they are doing it the natural way not poaching players. A special group of lads who played through the age groups together and happened click under a class manager.

Didn't some of your footballers grow up in Meath? Didn't some of your hurlers come from Tipp and elsewhere? Not sure why you are acting that Dublin are different to any other county in this regard.