Should Israel really be condemned and boycotted?

NKante

Odhinn wrote: »

Expanding settlements is as much annexation of territory as starting new ones. There's been a massive increase in settler population since the early 1990's.


The Palestinians are allowed control whatever Israel allows them too. It's not a relationship of equals.


Sinai was returned because it was too large an area to hold, and risked a war of attrition if occupied, which the smaller israeli population couldn't sustain.

The withdrawal from Gaza was due to the fact that it took far too many resources to protect 8,000 settlers. It was decided to focus those resources on the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, where the Gaza settlers also relocated to.

Sinai was very strategic and gave Israel a buffer against Egypt. They had settlements in Sinai, beautiful ones too. Made the desert bloom.


Your insistence that Israel can do no right and that all the lands returned were not for peace, but for more nefarious reasons, is very shortsighted and a problem on the anti-Israel side which never see Israel as being able to do good.

holyhead

Odhinn wrote: »

If only Israel would stay within its borders, you'd be correct.



It has peace agreements with Egypt, Jordan. Syria doesn't constitute a threat. It doesn't share a border with Iran.

Have you ever been to Israel?

NKante

Odhinn wrote: »

If only Israel would stay within its borders, you'd be correct.

.

Israel did. It was the Arab countries that didn't stay in their borders and attacked Israel. That's why they lost land.

Personally speaking, if some people ganged up and attacked me on three separate occasions and one of them dropped their wallet....I'd probably keep the cash.

Odhinn

NKante wrote: »

Sinai was very strategic and gave Israel a buffer against Egypt. They had settlements in Sinai, beautiful ones too. Made the desert bloom..

They were viewed as unsustainable in the long term.

NKante wrote: »

Your insistence that Israel can do no right and that all the lands returned were not for peace, but for more nefarious reasons, is very shortsighted and a problem on the anti-Israel side which never see Israel as being able to do good.

It's quite true, however. There's a hard nosed pragmatism to the Israeli sides actions. They take what its practical to take and - facing no international consequences for its actions - continue to do so.

Odhinn

NKante wrote: »

Israel did. It was the Arab countries that didn't stay in their borders and attacked Israel. That's why they lost land.

Personally speaking, if some people ganged up and attacked me on three separate occasions and one of them dropped their wallet....I'd probably keep the cash.

Aqquistion of territory by force has been forbidden by international law since the 1940's. And its not empty land thats the problem, its land thats lived on and farmed by the palestinian people.

Amalgam

People assume that Israel has always been attacked unfairly, but it started out with severe harassment/displacement of the Berber/Bedouin civilian population by Israeli 'groups', many of them a primitve Likud ensemble.

Early Jewish settlers (pre state of Israel) never started out as the abused once they got to Palestine, they were the abuser from the start.

Take a look at the wiki for the Israeli Likud (Wikipedia) party.

What a strange bunch.. they took inspiration from Mussolini! He'd be proud.

NKante

Odhinn wrote: »

Aqquistion of territory by force has been forbidden by international law since the 1940's.

Seems a bit odd to allow an entity to wage wars of annihilation, and for the victim be condemned for capturing strategic lands.

Made even more unfair by the fact these lands are historically and culturally Jewish.

I mean you do realise the West Bank is absolutely littered with Jewish tombs, towns, artefacts, history, synagogues, ruins etc?

Do people think Israelis have no connection to these lands and they just rocked up one day demanding the poor Arabs hand them over?

If the boy Jesus was alive today, he'd be classed as an illegal settler. That seems a bit off to me, does it bother you?

I see sheep

YES

end of the road

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Genocide? Over 1 million arabs live in Israel and are not discriminated against in any way. Not a single jew lives in the Gaza Strip. The govt of Israel forcibly evacuated every jew from there when they handed it back in 2005. And all they got in return for it were rockets. This is why they won't hand back the West Bank. The same thing is guaranteed to happen.

the reason they won't give it back is they want to colonise and expand on it. nothing to do with ineffective rockets.

Sean.3516 wrote: »

The genocide notion comes from the fact that there was a mass displacement of arabs after Israel declared independence. The reason for this movement had nothing to do with Israel declaring independence and everything to do with the arabs in palestine combined with the armies of Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt launching a war against Israel. The UN literally gave them ( the arabs ) a state and they wouldnt accept it. They just couldnt tolerate the idea of a jewish state beside them. The same ideology permeates Hamas and the Palestinian leadership. This is why they fire rockets, call for intifadas and subsidize the families of suicide bombers. They can't tolerate a jewish state beside them. Israel is happy to trade land for peace when they have reason to believe they will actually get peace in exchange for the land.

nope. israel is not happy to trade land in exchange for anything. they didn't give gaza back because they wanted peace, but because it was suitable as a place to hem the palestinian people in to in prison, or even worse, conditions similar to an open air concentration camp.
as things stand, israel are engaging in genocide and ethnic cleansing, all be it at a slow pace.

suicide_circus wrote: »

created following an attempted genocide, surrounded by hostile neighbours many of whom advocate completion of that genocide. if i were in such a position i would probably pursue a robust defensive strategy too. its impossible to excuse the level of criminal abuse the israeli state is guilty of when it comes to Palestine but it dosnt come from nowhere.

it doesn't come from nowhere, that is true. it's about a land grab and expansion.

Moghead

NKante wrote: »

Sinai was very strategic and gave Israel a buffer against Egypt. They had settlements in Sinai, beautiful ones too. Made the desert bloom.


Your insistence that Israel can do no right and that all the lands returned were not for peace, but for more nefarious reasons, is very shortsighted and a problem on the anti-Israel side which never see Israel as being able to do good.

Do you think Israel has done anything wrong regarding the treatment of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank? What do you think needs to be done to solve the problems regarding the conflict?

Odhinn

NKante wrote: »

Seems a bit odd to allow an entity to wage wars of annihilation, and for the victim be condemned for capturing strategic lands.

Made even more unfair by the fact these lands are historically and culturally Jewish.

I mean you do realise the West Bank is absolutely littered with Jewish tombs, towns, artefacts, history, synagogues, ruins etc?

Do people think Israelis have no connection to these lands and they just rocked up one day demanding the poor Arabs hand them over?

If the boy Jesus was alive today, he'd be classed as an illegal settler. That seems a bit off to me, does it bother you?

It's also covered with Palestinian cultural heritage. Evidently you don't think that of equal worth.

mvt

Some good,interesting posts here.

The state of Israel is not going away anytime soon but their treatment of the Palestinian people is deplorable.
It's almost as if they(the Israelis) have to demonise the Palestinians in order to justify their actions, a bit like the unionists up north. No wonder you see the Israeli flag flying from lampposts alongside the union Jack.

The whole situation is complex, to put it mildly but maybe a bit more sympathy & understanding of each sides grievances might go a long way.

Am reading a good book about this atm - The Way To The Spring by Ben Ehrenreich.
You'd want to have a heart of stone not to feel sorry for the suffering of the people of Palestine

NKante

Amalgam wrote: »

People assume that Israel has always been attacked unfairly, but it started out with severe harassment/displacement of the Berber/Bedouin civilian population by Israeli 'groups', many of them a primitve Likud ensemble.

Early Jewish settlers (pre state of Israel) never started out as the abused once they got to Palestine, they were the abuser from the start.

Take a look at the wiki for the Israeli Likud (Wikipedia) party.

What a strange bunch.. they took inspiration from Mussolini! He'd be proud.

Oh dear, this is like the exact opposite of what happened. The Palestinians were allied with Hitler, and it was the Jews being murdered 100 years ago by Arabs, not the other way around.

Where do you get this nonsense?

This French newspaper back in 1929 knew who the perpetrators were.

NKante

Odhinn wrote: »

It's also covered with Palestinian cultural heritage. Evidently you don't think that of equal worth.

That's incorrect. It may have Palestinian heritage for the past 60 odd years, but not historical. Unless you can point me to some?

It has Arab and Muslim history, albeit not to the same extent as Jewish - but certainly not a unique palestinian heritage.

I ask again. Jesus would now be considered an illegal settler. Do you believe that's fair?

Amalgam

For no particular reason.. (popped up on Reddit yesterday)

Palestinians making soap in Nablus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWmFMDr7y0U

satguy

I see they are back knocking down Palestinians houses, and building homes for Jews on other peoples land.

The US just turns a blind eye, while the EU is flooded with angry with homeless/stateless Arabs, sure what could go wrong.

Sean.3516

Odhinn wrote: »

Israel is the aggressor by dint of its colonisation of the West Bank,

If I recall correctly, in 1967 Jordan invaded Israel. Israel did not invade Jordan.

When you launch a war by invading a neighbouring country and you lose like Jordan did, the country you invaded has the right to occupy you until such a time as a peace treaty is agreed to.

Jordan has reached no such peace treaty with Israel, hence the occupation continues. It is completely legal under international law.

The vast majority of the Israeli parliament was in favor of some form of land for peace deal at the time. It fell through because the Arab League met in Sudan in 1967 and issued a resolution to not negotiate with Israel. In 2000 and 2008 Israel offered 95% of the occupied land back. They rejected it.

So not only is the occupation legal, the Arabs have blocked every effort to end it. Why? Because one of the conditions is to recognise the right of Israel to exist.

Amalgam

Amalgam wrote: »

People assume that Israel has always been attacked unfairly, but it started out with severe harassment/displacement of the Berber/Bedouin civilian population by Israeli 'groups', many of them a primitve Likud ensemble.

Early Jewish settlers (pre state of Israel) never started out as the abused once they got to Palestine, they were the abuser from the start.

Take a look at the wiki for the Israeli Likud (Wikipedia) party.

What a strange bunch.. they took inspiration from Mussolini! He'd be proud.

NKante wrote: »

Oh dear, this is like the exact opposite of what happened. The Palestinians were allied with Hitler, and it was the Jews being murdered 100 years ago by Arabs, not the other way around.

Where do you get this nonsense?

This French newspaper back in 1929 knew who the perpetrators were.

For anyone curious, that journal/magazine from the period is covering this..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots

..which in itself was a release of anger because of ongoing issues, living side by side.

Odhinn

NKante wrote: »

That's incorrect. It may have Palestinian heritage for the past 60 odd years, but not historical. Unless you can point me to some?

It has Arab and Muslim history, albeit not to the same extent as Jewish - but certainly not a unique palestinian heritage.

I ask again. Jesus would now be considered an illegal settler. Do you believe that's fair?

I'm not a believer in Jesus. Secondly you're making a stupid atttempt to state Jesus was a settler when he (allegedly) lived in a time when there was a native jewish population.


What source have you that states the West Bank has only had a population of palestinians since 60 years ago.

sportsfan90

I'll shamefully admit it's a conflict I know very little about.

Does anyone know any informative documentaries or youtube video on the topic? I realise many such things online are from far left/right publications with their own agendas. But if there's a documentary with no bias either way and shows the rights and wrongs of both sides, could they recommend them?

Sean.3516

Cordell wrote: »

There will never be peace between them. The only reason the body count is favorable to Israel is that they're better equipped, and not because Palestinians are more peaceful. They are at war and supporting or condemning either of them means aligning with one side.

This is absolutely right.
Palestinians instigate these conflicts with rockets and Israel shoots them down with the Iron Dome and then they counterstrike the rocket sites. Palestinians don't have an air defence system so obviously their casualties will be higher. None of this obviates the moral weight of firing rockets at another country or removes the right of the other country to shoot back.

Odhinn

sportsfan90 wrote: »

I'll shamefully admit it's a conflict I know very little about.

Does anyone know any informative documentaries or youtube video on the topic? I realise many such things online are from far left/right publications with their own agendas. But if there's a documentary with no bias either way and shows the rights and wrongs of both sides, could they recommend them?

I can recommend a few websites
https://www.btselem.org/


https://www.yesh-din.org/en/


https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/


http://www.hamoked.org/home.aspx


https://ijv.org.uk/


https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/



Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have a number of reports on the situation over the years as well.

NKante

Odhinn wrote: »

I can recommend a few websites
https://www.btselem.org/


https://www.yesh-din.org/en/


https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/


http://www.hamoked.org/home.aspx


https://ijv.org.uk/


https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/



Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have a number of reports on the situation over the years as well.

^^^^Avoid all of these biased sources that are not journalism, but left wing activism.

boetstark

tayto lover wrote: »

Apartheid state with no regard for the human rights of the Palestinians. Murderous regime that has been allowed break UN sanctions unopposed.

Absolutely you are so right. A country that has had 1200 rockets fired at it to date 2019. Please explain how a country should react to such provocation.
Ireland had one terrorist attack against it a we have never heard the end of it. Definitely IDF have gone overboard but there are two sides to this story.

Odhinn

NKante wrote: »

^^^^Avoid all of these biased sources that are not journalism, but left wing activism.

Yeah.....nobodys right except the ones that agree with ye, like randomers on you tube.


Human rights are left wing now?

NKante

sportsfan90 wrote: »

I'll shamefully admit it's a conflict I know very little about.

Does anyone know any informative documentaries or youtube video on the topic? I realise many such things online are from far left/right publications with their own agendas. But if there's a documentary with no bias either way and shows the rights and wrongs of both sides, could they recommend them?

Your best bet is to avoid all current 'news' as it's all biased nonsense.

Historical stuff from the time is harder to find, but doesn't have the fake news agenda of today.

Look for old newspaper headlines and articles, books written from that era in the 40's and earlier

Old pictures as well. Such as palestinians supporting Hitler, that tends to put things into perspective for that era of the initial war in 1948.

Also channels like this. Citizen journalism. Much better than any news source.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc4iogeOUXNw1RZSNTOlMeg

Odhinn

NKante wrote: »

Your best bet is to avoid all current 'news' as it's all biased nonsense.

Historical stuff from the time is harder to find, but doesn't have the fake news agenda of today.

Look for old newspaper headlines and articles, books written from that era in the 40's and earlier

Old pictures as well. Such as palestinians supporting Hitler, that tends to put things into perspective for that era of the initial war in 1948.

Also channels like this. Citizen journalism. Much better than any news source.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc4iogeOUXNw1RZSNTOlMeg

Jaysus spare us your naivete.

NKante

Odhinn wrote: »

Yeah.....nobodys right except the ones that agree with ye, like randomers on you tube.


Human rights are left wing now?

You posted biased sources from one perspective, all of which have a history of lying.

NKante

Odhinn wrote: »

Jaysus spare us your naivete.

If you're saying the Israel/Arab conflict back in the 40's was as filled with fake news as it is today, then you're obviously mental.

Odhinn

NKante wrote: »

If you're saying the Israel/Arab conflict back in the 40's was as filled with fake news as it is today, then you're obviously mental.

I think not.




Have you found a source for the notion that Palestinians only have a 60 year history in the West Bank yet?