Should Israel really be condemned and boycotted?

Sean.3516

So Israel often comes up in international politics these days and there are basically two diametrically opposite takes on the country and it's conflict with Palestine.

One, that Israel is an apartheid state similar to South Africa and practices discrimination and oppresses the Arab Palestinians who's land they have illegally occupied etc.

Two, that Israel is one of the most progressive country's in the Middle East in terms of it's society, economy and stance on human rights. That it has only ever acted in the interest of it's own national defence and that's main objective is peace in the region.

Obviously I have an opinion just like everybody else ( and full disclosure it's more in line with the second one than the first ) , but I'm interested in hearing some arguments that cut through the talking points. Rather than slogans I'd like to hear to most sophisticated of the main arguments for both sides.

tayto lover

Apartheid state with no regard for the human rights of the Palestinians. Murderous regime that has been allowed break UN sanctions unopposed.

riffmongous

Peace through ethnic cleansing is not to be commended

Yer Da sells Avon

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Two, that Israel is one of the most progressive country's in the Middle East in terms of it's society, economy and stance on human rights. That it has only ever acted in the interest of it's own national defence and that's main objective is peace in the region.

When you kill as many civilians as Israel has, you can't legitimately claim that your main objective is 'peace'.

ILoveYourVibes

Boycotted no. Particularly since the campaign to do so has been banned in the USA and France for having links to terrorism.


Condemned. Here is my take on that. If you condemn EVERYTHING Israel does you aren't seeing reality.

In some ways its a good country in some ways its not.


If you blame either side for more than 50% of the problem you are not seeing the truth.

Sometimes I see Israel do amazing things sometimes not so.

But it has a right to exist and defend itself. Should its politicians respect palestinians more yes.

Is the nation state law a good thing NO. But many surrounding muslim countries actually have similar laws.

ILoveYourVibes

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

When you kill as many civilians as Israel has, you can't legitimately claim that your main objective is 'peace'.

How many civilians has the Palestinian govt killed (both of them)? How many of THEIR own civilians have they killed?

ILoveYourVibes

riffmongous wrote: »

Peace through ethnic cleansing is not to be commended

You realize arab muslims make up about 20% of the Israeli population. They even serve in the army .

Even some of the Palestinians serve in the IDF.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37895021

Sean.3516

tayto lover wrote: »

Apartheid state with no regard for the human rights of the Palestinians. Murderous regime that has been allowed break UN sanctions unopposed.

I started this thread because I was interested in hearing the most sophisticated arguments.

Your post isn't an argument, it's a statement. An argument is where you lay out one or more well explained premises which if true provide the basis for believing in a conclusion.

You skipped the entire first half of that process.

Your Face

Neither. Its an excellent strategic location that needs to be preserved and protected.

Yer Da sells Avon

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Your post isn't an argument, it's a statement.

It's a wholly accurate statement. I don't blame you for not trying to argue against it.

ILoveYourVibes

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Rather than slogans I'd like to hear to most sophisticated of the main arguments for both sides.

That is the problem.

Its not solved by figuring out which side is right.

Where would be be if we asked who was right unionists or nationalists?

When you start calling one a terrorist and the other an occupier you dismiss the pain of the other.

I don't know what the solution is. I don't know what it will look like. But probably much different from what either side sees and wants now.

If you fight for one side in this you are fighting against that same side.

I want Israelis and Palestinians to love each other.

I know there are wonderful people ON BOTH sides.

If the wonderful people just hang on to each other all the way through this and hang on when everyone attacks them from their own people and the 'other side' then they will make it through and lead the way for everyone.

https://www.facebook.com/palestinelovesisrael.peacefactory/?tn-str=k*F


https://www.facebook.com/IsraelLovesPalestine/



NOW PLEASE GO LIKE THESE FB PAGES AND SHARE THEM SO PEOPLE KNOW MOST ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS DONT HATE EACH OTHER!

Sean.3516

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

When you kill as many civilians as Israel has, you can't legitimately claim that your main objective is 'peace'.

Civilians have been killed in almost every armed conflict.

What distinguishes cases of civilian deaths and collateral damage in various wars are whether or not they were intentional or preventable.

Whenever Israel launches an airstrike on a Palestinian target it's always a response to rockets fired into Israel. It's been well documented that Hamas deliberately places their ordinance in civilian facilities like schools and hospitals to be used as human shields.

In this case if you're Israel and you're objective is to destroy these rockets and you kill civilians, that's Hamas's fault for putting them in harms way.

Also in the case of the border clashes we saw when the US Embassy was moved. Hamas was literally taking civilians with their own operatives mixed in and herding them in the direction of an armed border fence manned by soldiers who have orders to let nothing get through. Combine that with Hamas operatives huring explosive kites and balloons over the fence, there's a point at which the IDF has no choice but to open fire and again if civilians die, it's Hamas's fault for putting them in harm's way.

biko

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Pakistan were among members of the UN’s 54-nation economic and social council, a principal organ of the world body, who voted to single out and condemn Israel yesterday as the only country in the world that violates women’s rights.

This is a link to a conservative site. Don't click it if you are a snowflake
https://www.redstate.com/slee/2019/07/25/un-passes-resolution-condemning-israel-womens-rights-violations-iran-saudi-arabia-among-voting-pass/

The Rape of Lucretia

There is a case for condemning much of Israel's behaviour since its creation. But to some degree, its actions are in its nature, leaving those originally responsible for the creation of a Jewish state with the greater case to answer.

larrykinney

Considering the recent demolition of Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem, the ongoing expansion of West Bank settlements, destruction of Palestinian infrastructure, wells, olive groves, building of the separation barrier on Palestinian land and the recent Jewish Nation State law, I don't think it's unreasonable to state that Israel has no interest in a just settlement to the conflict, only in continued occupation, persecution and humiliation of the Palestinians. Any Palestinian State that would emerge from the current situation would just be Gaza mark 2 in the West Bank, with little infrastructure, water or arable land, in other words a series of reservations. i think that people are entitled to boycott companies that benefit from the occupation, eg Caterpillar, HP, G4S etc. Many Jewish Israelis are opposed to the occupation, check out organisations like Breaking the Silence, B'Tselem and others.

tayto lover

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Civilians have been killed in almost every armed conflict.

What distinguishes cases of civilian deaths and collateral damage in various wars are whether or not they were intentional or preventable.

Whenever Israel launches an airstrike on a Palestinian target it's always a response to rockets fired into Israel. It's been well documented that Hamas deliberately places their ordinance in civilian facilities like schools and hospitals to be used as human shields.

In this case if you're Israel and you're objective is to destroy these rockets and you kill civilians, that's Hamas's fault for putting them in harms way.

Also in the case of the border clashes we saw when the US Embassy was moved. Hamas was literally taking civilians with their own operatives mixed in and herding them in the direction of an armed border fence manned by soldiers who have orders to let nothing get through. Combine that with Hamas operatives huring explosive kites and balloons over the fence, there's a point at which the IDF has no choice but to open fire and again if civilians die, it's Hamas's fault for putting them in harm's way.

Ha ha your true side coming out.
You’re an Israeli apologist I.e everything is Hamas fault and the poor ill-equipped Israelis are just defending themselves. You are condoning murder plain and simple.

branie2

Yes

Greyfox

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I started this thread because I was interested in hearing the most sophisticated arguments.

Your post isn't an argument, it's a statement. An argument is where you lay out one or more well explained premises which if true provide the basis for believing in a conclusion.

You skipped the entire first half of that process.

Everyone knows the facts at this stage. Israel are committing genocide but there doing it in a nice way and they have America behind them so there getting away with it. The map of the region compared to decades ago clearly show Israel are stealing land and pretty much all the civilian and child deaths are on the Palestinian side. If a 13 year old palastinian child is at the Israli border the Israli soldier is allowed to kill the child even if he can't see a weapon. I like Jewish people but it was the Natzis who put them in concentration camps and not the Arabs

biko

tayto lover wrote: »

Ha ha your true side coming out.
You’re an Israeli apologist I.e everything is Hamas fault and the poor ill-equipped Israelis are just defending themselves. You are condoning murder plain and simple.

How about you go fire off some Qassam rockets into civilian towns instead of spreading hate on the internet?

ILoveYourVibes

The truth is there is much more to it than Israel and palestine.


There is the USA there is Syria there is Iran there is Egypt there is Jordan there is the lebannon. And the factons within these.

That piece of land has been claimed by many and torn up by many.


And its easy for us to speak. But when you are IN it etc facing the violence it must be hard.

I can totally see how Palestinians would become radicalized I can totally see why Israelis would. They have to run for bomb shelters everyday. How would that make you feel.

I noticed an interview with some Palestinians and Israelis separately once during a time there was bombing going on. All of the answers were highly emotional and ANGRY. The same people were interviewed again several months later after the bombing. It was like they were different people. Reasonable compassionate towards the other etc.

In the heat of the violence when you are SEEING it on both sides its much more real than it is here to us.

So we have to make allowances for some of the crazy emotive things said sometimes.

Its easy for us we are not there.



But the Palestinians and Israelis who reach out to each other they are the ones who will lead the way.

stonecipher

Should Israel really be condemned and boycotted?

Absolutely not!
They are our last line of defence.

8-10

biko wrote: »

How about you go fire off some Qassam rockets into civilian towns instead of spreading hate on the internet?

How is that the better thing to have happen?

ILoveYourVibes

branie2 wrote: »

Yes

Israel is the biggest employer of Palestinians. And the Palestinian economy is almost totally reliant on the Israeli economy. Israel is supposed to provide them with a lot of public services too.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out boycotting Israel will hurt more Palestinians than it helps.

Gatling

biko wrote: »

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Pakistan were among members of the UN’s 54-nation economic and social council,

Wait the same Iran and Saudi who are battling each other in Yemen condemned Israel ,
The same Saudi some posters on boards claims are in control of America and won't go against Israel.....


The UN has always been a waste of time since it's inception we seen in Africa with the French supporting forces actively fighting UN forces and again similar in Korea where Russia actively pushed and supported the north Koreans invading South , including and sending it's forces to attack UN forces while condemning the invasion at the various UN councils.
Numerous other events over numerous decades showed how useless and handtied the UN actually is

suicide_circus

created following an attempted genocide, surrounded by hostile neighbours many of whom advocate completion of that genocide. if i were in such a position i would probably pursue a robust defensive strategy too. its impossible to excuse the level of criminal abuse the israeli state is guilty of when it comes to Palestine but it dosnt come from nowhere.

Sean.3516

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

There is a case for condemning much of Israel's behaviour since its creation. But to some degree, its actions are in its nature, leaving those originally responsible for the creation of a Jewish state with the greater case to answer.

Whom do you blame for the creation of the Jewish State?

The Russian Tsars who incited pogroms against them in the 19th century?

Theodore Herzl? Founder of the modern zionist movement?

Winston Churchill and Arthur Balfour for signing the Balfour Declaration in 1917 starting the legal process of founding a jewish state and an arab state in palestine?

Or do you blame Hitler for perpetrating the Holocaust killing 6 million jews and displacing countless others who migrated to Palestine?

Do you blame the British for giving up the Palestine Mandate to the UN?

The UN for voting to partitioning the land into a jewish state and an arab one.


The point I'm trying to make is that the UN decision to partition Palestine in 1947 was the culmination of a long road that began in the 1800s and no single person or group of people was responsible for it. So when you point to "those originally responsible", I'm not sure who you're talking about.

The USA? Though they famously stump for Israel today, they had no interest in a Jewish state in 1947 and were planning to vote against it and only changed their vote because they did not wish to be shown up by the Soviet Union who voted for it.

And also since you believe the creation of a jewish state was wrong, I'd like to ask you what you would have done instead. Leave the British in charge? I assume you're not in favor of colonialism.

Partition was really the only option in a land where the cultural gap and tension was so wide. Only the Jews had anything resembling a democratic governing body with the "Yishuv". The arabs did not support the idea of democracy and their politics before the partition was an internal tribal power struggle with the Mufti of Jersusalem Mohammed Amin al-Husseini assassinating his rivals. There was no way the two groups were going to form a country together at that stage.

Gatling

Boycott by all means but will it change anything no ,
It helped to bring change in South Africa in a small way but look at SA now it's gone more backwards and more racist then it was before ,

To deal with the issues of Israel you have to take into consideration the past and other players involved

Sean.3516

Gatling wrote: »

Wait the same Iran and Saudi who are battling each other in Yemen condemned Israel ,
The same Saudi some posters on boards claims are in control of America and won't go against Israel.....


The UN has always been a waste of time since it's inception we seen in Africa with the French supporting forces actively fighting UN forces and again similar in Korea where Russia actively pushed and supported the north Koreans invading South , including and sending it's forces to attack UN forces while condemning the invasion at the various UN councils.
Numerous other events over numerous decades showed how useless and handtied the UN actually is

Rwandan and Bosnian genocides? Massacre of Srebinica were 600 Dutch "peacekeepers" stood there and allowed a mass murder because they were told they couldnt engage unless fired upon?

The UN is a joke.
People complain about NATO but at least NATO doesn't mind shooting bad people.

mad muffin

If you (Ireland/Irish) condemn must also condemn Great Britain in the same forceful manner.

If you decry Israel as a murderous regime. You must also do the same to GB.

If you boycott Israel you must also boycott GB.

No hypocrisy.

Sean.3516

tayto lover wrote: »

Ha ha your true side coming out.
You’re an Israeli apologist I.e everything is Hamas fault and the poor ill-equipped Israelis are just defending themselves. You are condoning murder plain and simple.

If you disagree with anything I said in the post you quoted I invite you to point it out and make a coherent argument as to why it's false.

dudara

Moved from AH > CA