Should Israel really be condemned and boycotted?

ILoveYourVibes

CrankyHaus wrote: »

In the long run Israel, and Jewish people everywhere,are made far less safe by Israel keeping its boot on the Palestinian's neck and acting aggressively towards its neighbours with little regard for international law. This stokes anti-semitism (which in fairness is rampant in the middle-east) and keeps tensions bubbling away in perpetuity at constant risk of blowing up.


There is no guarantee that Israel will keep winning its wars. The best guarantee of lasting peace is to get on well with your neighbours. Military strength and the backing of the US has been a viable alternative for Israel for decades but to rely on this indefinitely is foolish, given both the geopolitical changes that the 21st century will bring and the historical fact that no power has ever maintained military superiority indefinitely. For the latter point see the battle of Jena 1806 where Napoleon easily crushed the Prussian army that had been the greatest in Europe a few short decades before.

It is getting on better with its neighbours.

Its getting on really well with Jordan and Egypt right now.

In fact Israel and Egypt are getting on much better than Eygpt and Palestine are getting on. Best they have ever been.


https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/11/egypt-israel-relations-highest-level-history-161107083926863.html

CrankyHaus

It would be more accurate to say that its getting on really well with the ruling regimes of Jordan and Egypt - who are playing nice due to their own realpolitik rationales (staying on the good side of the US so they aren't torn to shreds by an angry mob if it drops its support being a big one obvs).

It gets on a little less well with the populations of Jordan and Egypt, where anti-Israeli opinion is significant. All it takes is a regime change, or even democratisation, and Israel can find a hostile power on its border. In fact this very nearly happened a few years ago when Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood won the elections in Egypt before General El-Sisi stepped in to restore military rule.

Beta Ray Bill

CrankyHaus wrote: »

It would be more accurate to say that its getting on really well with the ruling regimes of Jordan and Egypt - who are playing nice due to their own realpolitik rationales (staying on the good side of the US so they aren't torn to shreds by an angry mob if it drops its support being a big one obvs).

It gets on a little less well with the populations of Jordan and Egypt, where anti-Israeli opinion is significant. All it takes is a regime change, or even democratisation, and Israel can find a hostile power on its border. In fact this very nearly happened a few years ago when Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood won the elections in Egypt before General El-Sisi stepped in to restore military rule.

I agree with what you're saying here in relation to a regime change.

But even at that so long as they have US support, they have nothing to worry about.
And they always will have this support as Israel is the US's beachhead into the middle east.
If the Saudis decided tomorrow to start selling oil in Yuan, Rubles or even Euro, the US would invade. And their forces would be built up in Israel.

Even in relation to the regime change, Jordan and Egypt get a nice little deal off the US to keep the boarders to the West bank and Gaza closed and keep relationships with enemies tame.

The US and Israel don't really care what happens to the Palestinians.
As far as Israel is concerned back in to 1940's/1950's. Palestine and their (Israels) neighboring countries tried to destroy Israel (only a few years after WW2)
They thought they'd be the victims of genocide again, and that can never be forgiven. So they're destined to be 2nd class citizens forever (so long as they live there), and no one is coming to help them.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they opened the boarders one way in a few years time once the situation in Syria is resolved. (Particularly the Gaza/Egypt boarder)

Ecce No Homo

NKante wrote: »

First of all, I always find it fascinating when someone says "I believe Israelis have the right to exist".

Disingenuous argument. Nobody remarks on whether Israelis "have the right to exist".

As you well know, people (rather redundantly) confirm their belief that "Israel has the right to exist". This is very different due to the fact that Israel in its current incarnation is less than 100 years old and was essentially an invasive settler project facilitated by imperialist Britain which required the dispossession of Palestinians from land they had owned and farmed for hundreds and hundreds of years. No doubt you will bring up the historical figure of Jesus, or some other hogwash from over 1000 years ago, but if we are going back that far basically none of the people currently living in any part of the world have a right to remain.

Most people conclude that "Israel has a right to exist" because, after all, they are already there. I would agree with you that the comment is at best redundant, and at worst insensitive however.

CrankyHaus

grahambo wrote: »

I agree with what you're saying here in relation to a regime change.

But even at that so long as they have US support, they have nothing to worry about.
And they always will have this support as Israel is the US's beachhead into the middle east.
If the Saudis decided tomorrow to start selling oil in Yuan, Rubles or even Euro, the US would invade. And their forces would be built up in Israel.

Even in relation to the regime change, Jordan and Egypt get a nice little deal off the US to keep the boarders to the West bank and Gaza closed and keep relationships with enemies tame.

The US and Israel don't really care what happens to the Palestinians.
As far as Israel is concerned back in to 1940's/1950's. Palestine and their (Israels) neighboring countries tried to destroy Israel (only a few years after WW2)
They thought they'd be the victims of genocide again, and that can never be forgiven. So they're destined to be 2nd class citizens forever (so long as they live there), and no one is coming to help them.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they opened the boarders one way in a few years time once the situation in Syria is resolved. (Particularly the Gaza/Egypt boarder)

Yes but my point was that the US is not going to be in a position to dictate terms in the Middle East forever. So far in this century we have already seen the US decline in relative power to competitors like China, first economically and now militarily. In the long run it is foolhardy for Israel to base it's survival on perpetual US dominance. The Jewish people have a recorded history stretching back thousands of years yet in Israel the self-appointed defenders of the Jewish nation seem incapable of planning past the next decade or two. A constant war footing does not make a nation safe.

Sean.3516

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

It is getting on better with its neighbours.

Its getting on really well with Jordan and Egypt right now.

In fact Israel and Egypt are getting on much better than Eygpt and Palestine are getting on. Best they have ever been.


https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/11/egypt-israel-relations-highest-level-history-161107083926863.html

Egypt have disowned Gaza because it's run by terrorists. Jordan have disowned the West Bank for the same reason. It's probably because post-1948 they occupied these areas, kept the people in camps refused to integrate them into their countries and spent years indoctrinating them with hate.

So Egypt and Jordan can't take them back, neither can Israel allow them to set up an independent state, since one of the conditions of this is recognising the right of Israel to exist which these folk will never do because they're vicious anti-semites who's objective is to destroy Israel. They'd rather continue the occupation which gives them cover for this objective than end the occupation and give up this objective.

1641

Ecce No Homo wrote: »

Most people conclude that "Israel has a right to exist" because, after all, they are already there. I would agree with you that the comment is at best redundant, and at worst insensitive however.

In the context of the prospects for peace is it really redundant? Does Hamas accept Israel's right to exist? Does Iran (and, by extension, its proxy Hizbollah) accept Israel's right to exist? Another poster referred to the possibility of regime change in other Arab countries, eg, Egypt. Where would this leave peace treaties recognising the right to exist?


The aim of the Arab armies in 1948 was to end Israel's existence. They also did not leave much doubt in the lead up to the 1967 war (the foundation of the current mess), eg,


"In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel." – President Nasser of Egypt, November 18, 1965



"Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel." – Nasser, May 27, 1967


"We will not accept any ... coexistence with Israel. ... Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel .... The war with Israel is in effect since 1948." – Nasser, May 28, 1967


"The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear – to wipe Israel off the map. We shall, God willing, meet in Tel Aviv and Haifa." – President Abdel Rahman Aref of Iraq, May 31, 1967


Syria's forces are "ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united.... I as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." – Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad, May 20, 1967


I see a complex dispute with many faults on both sides. But from an Israeli viewpoint you can understand the wariness about peace that does not comprehensively guarantee the right of peaceable existence within secure, defensible borders. Are those on the Arab side able to deliver that (even those leaders who may be willing to do so)?

Ecce No Homo

1641 wrote: »

In the context of the prospects for peace is it really redundant?

To be clear, in line with the post I was replying to, I was talking about people who in casual conversation, mainly in Europe and America, feel the need to preface their opinions on the topic with "I believe Israel has the right to exist and/but..."

Beta Ray Bill

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Yes but my point was that the US is not going to be in a position to dictate terms in the Middle East forever. So far in this century we have already seen the US decline in relative power to competitors like China, first economically and now militarily. In the long run it is foolhardy for Israel to base it's survival on perpetual US dominance. The Jewish people have a recorded history stretching back thousands of years yet in Israel the self-appointed defenders of the Jewish nation seem incapable of planning past the next decade or two. A constant war footing does not make a nation safe.

I get what you are saying, but empires don't Rise and Fall anymore the way they used to. This is a result of nuclear weapons (which Israel has). There's a stalemate.

They therefore cannot be attacked or squeezed out or have anything of any real significance done to them so long as they have them.

If Iran or the the Saudi's detonated an nuclear weapon, the US would invade, before they developed more. (Israel would probably strike first)
The only reason they (US) didn't invade North Korea is because of China.

Like you said China is a growing military power, they have a large army but lack power projection. Low number of Aircraft carriers, small blue sea fleet, low number of troop/logistical aircraft, low number of refueling planes. Again though, this is changing.

Also China needs the US a lot more than US needs China, this was seen recently with US willing to completely cut off Huawei (and others).
And if the US wanted they could make the EU follow suit.

BloodBath

NKante wrote: »

First of all, I always find it fascinating when someone says "I believe Israelis have the right to exist". Like it's some favour you're doing them. Like they should be grateful you'll permit them to live.

What other country in the world is subjected to the mainly left wing dinner table discussions about whether they should be allowed to exist or not, in such a casual manner? the lives of 8 million people hanging on the thumbs up or thumbs down of some pink-haired leftist student scrote from Europe.

Secondly, if Israel had not won the wars started by the Arabs - it would have been a Holocaust. People like you will have tutted and said "OK, this time Never Again".

You can't separate the two. The fact Israel holds Judea & Samaria (renamed to the 'West Bank' to erase Jewish history) is because they managed to prevent a second, in fact a third Holocaust of the Jewish people. I'm not going to sit in my comfy sofa in the UK and wag my morally superior finger at the Israelis for having the temerity to survive and to hold onto the land used to launch the wars against them. Land that's historically Jewish anyway.

Maybe it was in response to being accused of supporting genocide you total moron.

NKante

BloodBath wrote: »

Maybe it was in response to being accused of supporting genocide you total moron.

Anyone who supported the Arab axis, or now wishes the Arabs had won - supports genocide.

As that was the stated aim of the Arabs, to carry out a Holocaust of the Jewish people in the Middle East. Something the palestinians also lobbied Hitler to do. They begged him to turn his attention to the Jews in the M.E. He sent his advisers to meet and discuss ridding the M.E of Jews.

A people that pre-date 'Arabs', that pre-date Islam by some 2,000 years+ and pre-date the palestinians by nearly 4,000 years.

It's no wonder they're still big fans of Nazism. You've got to scratch your head when the left ardently support this mob.

























That sinking feeling when you realise you're on the side of Nazism.

holyhead

There is no doubt that Israel is surrounded by countries on all sides which resent it's very existence. This doesn't absolve Israel of her sins but it does explain a possible us against the world siege mentality there. Having been there three times I felt very safe. The only times I felt unsafe was in the Palestinian areas of Jerusalem. My friend had his phone stolen and I lost a radio another time out of my backpack. Thankfully my friend had phone specific insurance.
The main crimes as I see it committed by Israel are the settlements, Gaza blockade and the disproportionate response to Palestinian violence. Netanyahu willl never be a sincere maker of peace. The US leans too much towards Israel to be an honest broker.

NKante

holyhead wrote: »

There is no doubt that Israel is surrounded by countries on all sides which resent it's very existence. This doesn't absolve Israel of her sins but it does explain a possible us against the world siege mentality there. Having been there three times I felt very safe. The only times I felt unsafe was in the Palestinian areas of Jerusalem. My friend had his phone stolen and I lost a radio another time out of my backpack. Thankfully my friend had phone specific insurance.
The main crimes as I see it committed by Israel are the settlements, Gaza blockade and the disproportionate response to Palestinian violence. Netanyahu willl never be a sincere maker of peace. The US leans too much towards Israel to be an honest broker.

The blockade of Gaza, which is a very lax one, was necessary because an internationally proscribed terrorist group with the genocide of the Jewish people in their charter, took over the territory and lobbed thousands of rockets.

Even a UN inquiry declared the blockade legitimate.

The US might lean towards Israel, but the EU, the UN, every left wing co-opted 'human rights' group, the whole Islamic world, most of Africa and socialist South America leans or are squarely behind the palestinians.

mad muffin

After watching this I’m not sure peace is a reality.

https://youtu.be/FPkR9mWGre4

The Enbalmer

tayto lover wrote:

Apartheid state with no regard for the human rights of the Palestinians. Murderous regime that has been allowed break UN sanctions unopposed.

The ONLY country in the middle east with a democracy

NKante

mad muffin wrote: »

After watching this I’m not sure peace is a reality.

https://youtu.be/FPkR9mWGre4

Imagine my surprise that this didn't make the BBC news, but some minor Israeli politician who supported gay conversion therapy (he was actually misquoted) was headline on BBC world. :rolleyes:

Sean.3516

holyhead wrote: »

There is no doubt that Israel is surrounded by countries on all sides which resent it's very existence. This doesn't absolve Israel of her sins but it does explain a possible us against the world siege mentality there. Having been there three times I felt very safe. The only times I felt unsafe was in the Palestinian areas of Jerusalem. My friend had his phone stolen and I lost a radio another time out of my backpack. Thankfully my friend had phone specific insurance.
The main crimes as I see it committed by Israel are the settlements, Gaza blockade and the disproportionate response to Palestinian violence. Netanyahu willl never be a sincere maker of peace. The US leans too much towards Israel to be an honest broker.

I appreciate the acknowledgment that Israel faces threat from surrounding countries. When it comes to Israel's sins I just have couple of points to make.

There's a default seemingly common-sense position that most people hold that says "If only both sides would just get over their differences." The sort of Trumpian "there's blame on both sides argument." While this may seem the most reasonable I really do believe looking at the facts that the actions and attitudes of the Hamas and the Palestinian leadership are the key barriers to peace and a two-state solution.

Regarding the settlements I am generally agree with the idea that if you are presiding over a military occupation somewhere outside you're own state you shouldn't be building settlements for you're own people there. Although I'll also grant Israel the notion that this idea becomes obsolete when the people in the occupied areas are ideologically indifferent to a peaceful settlement ending the occupation and the setting up of an indepenent state. (Since any settlement is predicated on the notion that the Pal leadership and Hamas must acknowledge Israel's legitimacy as a state also.) and have been indifferent to such proposals for over 50 years. (They turned down offers of a state in 1967, 2000 and 2008)

However the settlements are not the barrier to peace. We know this because the Pals opposed land for peace before the settlements properly came into existence.

Regarding Gaza blockade, as soon as the Israelis pulled out in 2005 the strip was immediately taken over by Hamas and used as a base from which rockets were fired and suicide bombers sent into Israel. The purpose of the blockade was to put a stop to the importing of weapons and the exporting of suicide bombers. The blockade was a reasonable and predictable response to Hamas's aggression. The only other option would be to re-occupy the area they had just pulled out from.

You called the Israeli response to Palestinian violence "disproportionate". What in your opinion would be a proportionate response to palestinian violence? I also reject the notion that disproportionate responses are inherently unjustified responses or bad. When two groups respond to eachothers violence proportionately, you get a cycle of reprisals in which each side feels no need to back down as the intensity of the violence feels somewhat predictable and regulated. Disproportionate responses are effective as they can establish a deterrence. When people are firing rockets at you on a constant basis you need to be at least somewhat decisive in response.

mad muffin

NKante wrote: »

Imagine my surprise that this didn't make the BBC news, but some minor Israeli politician who supported gay conversion therapy (he was actually misquoted) was headline on BBC world. :rolleyes:

That’s because it doesn’t suit the leftist narrative.

NKante

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Regarding Gaza blockade, as soon as the Israelis pulled out in 2005 the strip was immediately taken over by Hamas and used as a base from which rockets were fired and suicide bombers sent into Israel.

Good post, just a small correction.

Israel left Gaza in 2005 and the blockade came into effect in 2007.

And just as a side note. In Israel's 2005 disengagement plan, it spoke of building a sea port and air port in Gaza after a period of calm. They also left a lot of infrastructure, such as the million dollar green houses to grow crops (destroyed by palestinians)

The period of calm never came. They launched the first rocket on the day Israel left Gaza.

holyhead

In terms of the international PR war the Gaza blockade and the settlements are probably the biggest sticks that Israel will get hit with. The general feeling is when the Palestinians hit the Israelis with a ruler Israel replies with a hammer (metaphorically speaking). Don't misunderstand I don't begrudge the existence of Israel. There are many things I admire about Israel and I love going on holidays there. I think in Ireland people have a natural disposition, given our own history with the Brits, to side with the Palestinians. A peaceful settlement seems unlikely in the next 20 years. It will take a more moderate generation on both sides to reach a sustainable compromise.

Have either Nkante or Sean.3516 been to Israel and if so how did you find your experience there?

Cheerful Spring2

Israel and Hamas are at it again tonight. Reports of IDF soldiers shot and injured by Palestine fighters. Reported incursions near the border ongoing. If true Israel will respond massively. Seeing videos of drones up in the air now.

A journalist in the Israel army reports that IDF could start major air ops within a few hours. Again this news coming from Arab and Israel sources, so we have to wait and see if their operation actually takes place.

ILoveYourVibes

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Israel and Hamas are at it again tonight. Reports of IDF soldiers shot and injured by Palestine fighters. Reported incursions near the border ongoing. If true Israel will respond massively. Seeing videos of drones up in the air now.

A journalist in the Israel army reports that IDF could start major air ops within a few hours. Again this news coming from Arab and Israel sources, so we have to wait and see if their operation actually takes place.

Nothing in the news about it either.

There were three IDF soldiers injured by a Hamas sniper. They were airlifted to Soroka hospital.

Cheerful Spring2

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Nothing in the news about it either.

IDF released a statement 1 moderate and 2 light injuries to their soldiers. Seems there was a light incursion near the border. One or two of the Palestinian fighters involved were killed.

In my opinion its highly unlikely there wil be a major air op tonight. It not big enough event to go all out. Israel may think otherwise, but i doubt it will happen.

ILoveYourVibes

About Hebron its very interesting.

It makes a point that people showing maps of Israeli borders or settlements are often just showing fake maps or they don't know they are fake or incorrect.

ILoveYourVibes

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

IDF released a statement 1 moderate and 2 light injuries to their soldiers. Seems there was a light incursion near the border. One or two of the Palestinian fighters involved were killed.

In my opinion its highly unlikely there wil be a major air op tonight. It not big enough event to go all out. Israel may think otherwise, but i doubt it will happen.

No. But the lack of narrative in the news contributes to the lack of understanding of the conflict.

Also soldiers and Israelis have died and their funerals been shown on Israeli tv or youtube. Its never on the BBC etc.

Israeli prime ministers often visit soldiers in hospital too. Never shown.

Yet people think they understand the conflict.

TommyKnocker

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

IDF released a statement 1 moderate and 2 light injuries to their soldiers. Seems there was a light incursion near the border. One or two of the Palestinian fighters involved were killed.

In my opinion its highly unlikely there wil be a major air op tonight. It not big enough event to go all out. Israel may think otherwise, but i doubt it will happen.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

As I read the highlighted part of this post I understand that fully armed Israeli soldiers entered or attempted to enter into Gaza, a place that supposedly Israel handed back to the Palestinians, so not Israels land. Palestinian militants fired on the soldiers, injuring 3 of them and according to some on here this is bad and to be condemned.

Meanwhile, unarmed Palestinian civilians demonstrating 100's of meters away from the border fence between Gaza and the "buffer zone" between Israel and Gaza are shot at by Israeli snipers with many, including women, children, medics and journalists, killed or horrifically maimed and requiring amputations, and this is Israel "defending" itself.

Is the right to defend oneself solely an Israeli right?

Wonder what would happen if the the Mexican army attempted "a light incursion" into the USA?

NKante

TommyKnocker wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

As I read the highlighted part of this post I understand that fully armed Israeli soldiers entered or attempted to enter into Gaza,

You understand wrong. A Hamas terrorist infiltrated into Israeli territory and attacked soldiers stationed nearby.

NKante

holyhead wrote: »

Have either Nkante or Sean.3516 been to Israel and if so how did you find your experience there?

Missed this question.

Yes, I've been to Israel, Bethlehem and Jericho.

I loved my time in Israel so much, that I went back. I like the people. I like the honesty and straightforwardness. No bull****, you always know what people think and they speak frankly. Also society seems to be more free to speak than here. Less SJW nonsense too. And conversations aren't just superficial.

The Israeli Arabs were cool too, although it was hard to know who was and who wasn't unless it was obvious from the dress etc. I went to Nazareth which is majority Arab I believe.

I have to say that I was a bit put off in the palestinian areas from how much we got hassled to buy stuff. Also in the Muslim quarter in Jerusalem. It's impossible to just browse casually without being hassled. They're friendly with it, but it's tiring. Females on their own can feel uncomfortable. Not unique to palestinans, happens in likes of Turkey and Morocco too.

Always felt safe. One of our group left their phone on the bus and someone had actually handed it in to lost & found. That was a pleasant surprise.

Really felt the history and even as an atheist, you feel something in the likes of Jerusalem. Just so ancient and so much history.

Biggest surprise was the food. Hands down the best food experience from any other country I've been too. Not a single disappointing meal even in the cheapest roadside cafes. Just fresh, tasty, plenty of it, mostly healthy.

Only downside is the expense. It's not like a cheap holiday to Spain. Then again it's not that kind of holiday. More to it. More historical and cultural.

Made a couple of friends there, so will be going back at some point.

holyhead

Nkante I too loved the food. Fantastic and healthy. Not the cheapest country to visit but very impressive. As you say their was a bit of hassle in Jerusalem from the Arab traders. They can be quite persistent! Jerusalem is an amazing city. Tel Aviv is the complete opposite to Jerusalem. Very liberal and hedonistic. So much history and culture. I look forward to the day we might get direct flights from Dublin to Tel Aviv.

Cheerful Spring2

TommyKnocker wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

As I read the highlighted part of this post I understand that fully armed Israeli soldiers entered or attempted to enter into Gaza, a place that supposedly Israel handed back to the Palestinians, so not Israels land. Palestinian militants fired on the soldiers, injuring 3 of them and according to some on here this is bad and to be condemned.

Meanwhile, unarmed Palestinian civilians demonstrating 100's of meters away from the border fence between Gaza and the "buffer zone" between Israel and Gaza are shot at by Israeli snipers with many, including women, children, medics and journalists, killed or horrifically maimed and requiring amputations, and this is Israel "defending" itself.

Is the right to defend oneself solely an Israeli right?

Wonder what would happen if the the Mexican army attempted "a light incursion" into the USA?

Far as i can tell it involved a Palestinian incursion and they shot first and IDF returned fire and killed them. I believe Israel has a right to exist and respond proportionally to rockets, but my main problem with Israel they kill lot of Palestinians and very little done to stop this reckless behavior at the UN, plus the United States does not seem to care women and young children are murdered here. You can't blame Hamas when IDF uses real bulllets to kill people. Security forces in Northern Ireland during the troubles managed far worse riots and avoided multiple casualties, so why can't Israel do the same. Israel government needs to train the soldiers better how to manage riots. Those snipers i saw on video can only be described as disturbed individuals and thought they were playing a fight game.

I don't get the hate for Iran also. Israel is themselves making Iran the big enemy and if they actually sat down for a chat they work out their diffferences. Iran can't destroy Israel, if they did try 80 million Iranians will be dead in minutes, as Isreal has nukes. It just waste of time and effort this back and forth bull****. Sort it out and they be much happier in the region.