Citizenship ruling.

Atoms for Peace

Five years of continuous tax contributions would be a better criteria for citizen in my opinion.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Yes but that obviously as the SC carries more weight than the "the judge is a muppet" and "I think the judge is wrong" posts we've been enlightened with

Judges have often made objectively stupid or terrible decisions.

splinter65

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Five years of continuous tax contributions would be a better criteria for citizen in my opinion.

So a stay at home parent with a partner who is the sole provider can’t be a citizen?
Or a pensioner?
Or a disabled person?
Or someone caring full time for a disabled person?

Sir Oxman

splinter65 wrote: »

No. the ruling includes going into N Ireland.

Which immediately makes it totally unreasonable.

odyssey06

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Judges have often made objectively stupid or terrible decisions.

Just today this happened in the Court of Appeals...
https://www.thejournal.ie/rape-jailed-conviction-quashed-appeal-4729991-Jul2019/

Justice Edwards said it was “almost inconceivable” that one of the most experienced criminal trial judges on the bench at that time would simply forget to give the jury several important instructions

theguzman

Why should we be giving citizenship at all? Surely a revocable Permanent Residency scheme would be better like they use in the middle east, you cross the line with a felony type offence and your out the door and I don't care if you have lived here your entire life. Ireland is the Irish nation and its people, in the 1916 Irish proclamation it said: IRISHMEN AND IRISHWOMEN:
In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood.

Irish ethnicity and Irish citizenship have now totally diverged, Irish people fought to free Ireland from the disastrous effects of the Cromwellian Invasion and subsequent Protestant Plantations of the 1600's, the effects of which are still evident in Ulster and causing problems to this very day. Look at how the immigration of Europeans to North and South America turned out for the Native Americans, the aboriginals in Australia also effectively wiped out and left with no control of their own land or country. Over 100 million dead in the America's and Australia due to colonisation and immigration, infectious disase of which the native population had no immunity being the biggest killer.

There is nothing wrong with immigrant labour to fill shortages but they are not Irish nor will ever be, if the current demographic decline continues and immigration and freedom of movement is allowed to continue as is then it is inevitable that the ethnic Irish will become a minority within Ireland within just one or maybe two generations, easily within 50-100 years, Irish children born today could be an ethnic minority before they die and should the Ulster Scots Unionist tradition join in a United Ireland then it will accelerate this.

Citizenship is something that needs examining as part of a bigger rational and informed debate around immigration, keep the far-right and the loony left out of it, most of the concerns due to immigration are economic and about security. Granting equal status Citizienship to alien cultures, adversarial Religions and then trying to shut down any debate or reasoned questioning only contributes to the continued rise of Far-Right politics whilst disenfranchising the moderate middle ground.

Atoms for Peace

splinter65 wrote: »

So a stay at home parent with a partner who is the sole provider can’t be a citizen?
Or a pensioner?
Or a disabled person?
Or someone caring full time for a disabled person?

Mostly yes. Emotion should pay no part in making such a decision, being cynical about it the first three examples are a burden to the state. Careers in contrast are a boon to the state in providing a service and as far as i know the careers allowence is a taxable source of income.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

theguzman wrote: »

Why should we be giving citizenship at all? Surely a revocable Permanent Residency scheme would be better like they use in the middle east, you cross the line with a felony type offence and your out the door and I don't care if you have lived here your entire life. Ireland is the Irish nation and its people, in the 1916 Irish proclamation it said: IRISHMEN AND IRISHWOMEN:
In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood.

Irish ethnicity and Irish citizenship have now totally diverged, Irish people fought to free Ireland from the disastrous effects of the Cromwellian Invasion and subsequent Protestant Plantations of the 1600's, the effects of which are still evident in Ulster and causing problems to this very day. Look at how the immigration of Europeans to North and South America turned out for the Native Americans, the aboriginals in Australia also effectively wiped out and left with no control of their own land or country. Over 100 million dead in the America's and Australia due to colonisation and immigration, infectious disase of which the native population had no immunity being the biggest killer.

There is nothing wrong with immigrant labour to fill shortages but they are not Irish nor will ever be, if the current demographic decline continues and immigration and freedom of movement is allowed to continue as is then it is inevitable that the ethnic Irish will become a minority within Ireland within just one or maybe two generations, easily within 50-100 years, Irish children born today could be an ethnic minority before they die and should the Ulster Scots Unionist tradition join in a United Ireland then it will accelerate this.

Citizenship is something that needs examining as part of a bigger rational and informed debate around immigration, keep the far-right and the loony left out of it, most of the concerns due to immigration are economic and about security. Granting equal status Citizienship to alien cultures, adversarial Religions and then trying to shut down any debate or reasoned questioning only contributes to the continued rise of Far-Right politics whilst disenfranchising the moderate middle ground.

Many of the rebels who brought about Irish independence grew up outside Ireland. Pearse grew up in Ireland but had an English father. Erskine Childers was an Englishman. Constance Markievicz married a Pole. Robert Briscoe was the son of Jewish immigrants. Bulmer Hobson and Ernest Blythe were Ulster protestants. Not the best examples of exclusive ethnic nationalism.

Comparing legal immigration to colonization is utter drivel. Nobody is invading Ireland. People who apply for citiznship are legal immigrants who have come to Ireland for work or family reasons.

Corholio

I hate in these topics that the 'Tough luck it's the law' crew turn up,but on any number of other topics would be criticising the law in categories such as driving, workplace, politicians wages etc etc. Many, many judges have got it wrong, just look at the number of appeals that constantly get won in courts of law because of an overlooking of the law by said judge.

weldoninhio

o1s1n wrote: »

I'll give you a scenario so;

Person has been living here for 6 years, earns a 50k+ salary and paid tax on every cent of that to Irish revenue (without being able to claim any kind of social welfare, not that they'd want to mind you).

Had their citizenship application rubber stamped by the minister this year after paying the guts of 1000 euro to put the application through (which is not a a simple or easy process)

Is preparing to be naturalised in September, took time off work, booked a hotel to stay in Killarney, all as per the process in Ireland... and now this happens.

Clearly a 'dirty immigrant scammer' though right?

Your scenario is nonsense. Killarney is in Ireland.

weldoninhio

Greyfox wrote: »

They shouldnt have to as the judge is just creating a silly inconvenience that helps nobody. Someone should be free to drive into another country for a couple of hours and back to your own country on the same day without anybody asking silly questions



Its a stupid interpretation of the law by another judge who doesnt think using common sense is a good idea.

Justice is blind. Common sense shouldn’t come into it.

weldoninhio

splinter65 wrote: »

If my parents are bed bound in a nursing home? Really?

Really? How many people, realistically is this going to happen to??

splinter65

weldoninhio wrote: »

Really? How many people, realistically is this going to happen to??

But your seriously suggesting that it’s fair to say that if I travel 5km over the border to
1. Go to Sainsburys
2. Go to work
3. Visit family
4. Have a meal in a restaurant etc
That it’s perfectly correct that I be refused citizenship on the grounds that I’m not really resident in Ireland.
Answer me this.
Do you disagree with people born in N Ireland being awarded Irish passports?
Will you disagree with the legislation surrounding this decision by this judge being changed in September?

splinter65

weldoninhio wrote: »

Your scenario is nonsense. Killarney is in Ireland.

Are you deliberately misinterpreting that post or do you genuinely not understand it?
The citizenship applicant is not now being refused citizenship because they are going to Killarney, but because they travelled out of the State for work.

weldoninhio

splinter65 wrote: »

But your seriously suggesting that it’s fair to say that if I travel 5km over the border to
1. Go to Sainsburys
2. Go to work
3. Visit family
4. Have a meal in a restaurant etc
That it’s perfectly correct that I be refused citizenship on the grounds that I’m not really resident in Ireland.
Answer me this.
Do you disagree with people born in N Ireland being awarded Irish passports?
Will you disagree with the legislation surrounding this decision by this judge being changed in September?

1. I have no problem with people in NI getting Irish passports, it was one of the pillars of the GFA, however, NI is a different jurisdiction to ROI.

2. If the legislation is changed so be it. However, it is how it is now.

weldoninhio

splinter65 wrote: »

Are you deliberately misinterpreting that post or do you genuinely not understand it?
The citizenship applicant is not now being refused citizenship because they are going to Killarney, but because they travelled out of the State for work.

I'll give you a scenario so;

Person has been living here for 6 years, earns a 50k+ salary and paid tax on every cent of that to Irish revenue (without being able to claim any kind of social welfare, not that they'd want to mind you).

Had their citizenship application rubber stamped by the minister this year after paying the guts of 1000 euro to put the application through (which is not a a simple or easy process)

Is preparing to be naturalised in September, took time off work, booked a hotel to stay in Killarney, all as per the process in Ireland... and now this happens.

Clearly a 'dirty immigrant scammer' though right?

Care to point out where they mentioned travelling out of state for work?? The only travel mentioned at all in the post is to Killarney. And i'm the one misinterpreting :rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

splinter65 wrote: »

But your seriously suggesting that it’s fair to say that if I travel 5km over the border to
1. Go to Sainsburys
2. Go to work
3. Visit family
4. Have a meal in a restaurant etc
That it’s perfectly correct that I be refused citizenship on the grounds that I’m not really resident in Ireland.
Answer me this.

I don't think people are saying that its perfectly correct to refuse citizenship for those reasons.
What is being said is that the law as currently interpreted does not allow for the leaving of the jurisdiction in the twelve months leading up to citizenship. That the law needs to change is without doubt. However some peope seem to be automatically assuming that everyone is saying that this is the way things should be.

splinter65

weldoninhio wrote: »

1. I have no problem with people in NI getting Irish passports, it was one of the pillars of the GFA, however, NI is a different jurisdiction to ROI.

2. If the legislation is changed so be it. However, it is how it is now.

You have no problem with people who don’t make any financial contribution to Ireland at all getting Irish passports but you’re in total agreement with people making 20+ years of financial and social contribution to Ireland being refused because they went to visit the Titanic thing in Belfast for their 40th birthday?
Interesting take you have on the whole thing there....

blanch152

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I don't think people are saying that its perfectly correct to refuse citizenship for those reasons.
What is being said is that the law as currently interpreted does not allow for the leaving of the jurisdiction in the twelve months leading up to citizenship. That the law needs to change is without doubt. However some peope seem to be automatically assuming that everyone is saying that this is the way things should be.

I think it is opportune to use this judgement to review the citizenship laws. Are we too mean-spirited in awarding citizenship? Are we too generous?

Look at that Irishman in America about to be deported, who has worked there, paid taxes, and raised children. Do we want to be like that? But then again, he started off as an illegal immigrant.

Should we place a value on contribution to society? Should someone have been registered and paying income tax for five years to qualify? Should we be an open welcoming country that gives citizenship more quickly than five years? How should we deal with family members, and how close relationships?

What are the unforeseen consequences of any of those decisions?

It is difficult to have a mature debate about citizenship when there are many on the extremes.

weldoninhio

splinter65 wrote: »

You have no problem with people who don’t make any financial contribution to Ireland at all getting Irish passports but you’re in total agreement with people making 20+ years of financial and social contribution to Ireland being refused because they went to visit the Titanic thing in Belfast for their 40th birthday?
Interesting take you have on the whole thing there....

The GFA has no problem with people from the North receiving Irish passports.

I don't believe having to stay in a country for 365 days is too much to ask to become a lifelong citizen of that country, and all of the associated perks that come with that.

Skylinehead

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Until then, the judge is correct no matter what you think!

Is this some kind of Papal infallibility thing? Judges have been wrong plenty of times.

Argue the point properly instead of the childish "he's right because he's a judge".

o1s1n

weldoninhio wrote: »

Your scenario is nonsense. Killarney is in Ireland.

If you actually read the thread rather than selectively quoting one of my posts you'll realise that the '..and now this happens' in my post you have quoted related to something I explained earlier in the thread.

Why would I be discussing this in relation to someone visiting Killarney? Of course that's a nonsense way of interpreting it - I didn't think I'd have to spell something so obvious out, apparently I was wrong.

Seth Brundle

Skylinehead wrote: »

Is this some kind of Papal infallibility thing? Judges have been wrong plenty of times.

Argue the point properly instead of the childish "he's right because he's a judge".

The judge is correct until he is overruled.
The Dept are planning on the basis that the High Court ruling is correct.

Skylinehead

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The judge is correct until he is overruled.
The Dept are planning on the basis that the High Court ruling is correct.

Correct is a binary thing. He is right now or he is wrong now, it can't depend on some future event.

We're talking about his interpretation of particular words here, not whether his ruling changes how the law is implemented, it obviously does. Interpretations can be wrong.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I don't think people are saying that its perfectly correct to refuse citizenship for those reasons.
What is being said is that the law as currently interpreted does not allow for the leaving of the jurisdiction in the twelve months leading up to citizenship. That the law needs to change is without doubt. However some peope seem to be automatically assuming that everyone is saying that this is the way things should be.

Plenty of people are in fact saying that it is correct.

splinter65

weldoninhio wrote: »

The GFA has no problem with people from the North receiving Irish passports.

I don't believe having to stay in a country for 365 days is too much to ask to become a lifelong citizen of that country, and all of the associated perks that come with that.

Operating your entire life with your only point of reference being “what does the GFA say about this” must be very difficult.
I feel for you.

Marcusm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

We'll you train at the bar and become a High Court judge and then you can make a legal ruling on the matter.
Until then, the judge is correct no matter what you think!

He didn’t train at the bar; he was a solicitor with a series of in-house jobs in banks before being appointed a high court judge. He does have a PhD from University of Salford, however. That was formed from the merger of the Salford Working Men’s College and Pendleton Mechanics Institute. It looks like Fergie (then wife of Prince Andrew) was its chancellor at the time. The Times ranks it 105th out if 123 universities and colleges. The comedian Peter Kay attended at or around the same time.

Marcusm

weldoninhio wrote: »

Your scenario is nonsense. Killarney is in Ireland.

True but is there any point in going to Killarney for the formal citizenship ceremony if the naturalisation might be in question!

dulpit

Marcusm wrote: »

He didn’t train at the bar; he was a solicitor with a series of in-house jobs in banks before being appointed a high court judge. He does have a PhD from University of Salford, however. That was formed from the merger of the Salford Working Men’s College and Pendleton Mechanics Institute. It looks like Fergie (then wife of Prince Andrew) was its chancellor at the time. The Times ranks it 105th out if 123 universities and colleges. The comedian Peter Kay attended at or around the same time.

Talk about beating down on the University of Salford. The chancellor is a figurehead by the way, so wouldn't be involved day to day. And what does Peter Kay have to do with anything?

Pixel Eater

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Many of the rebels who brought about Irish independence grew up outside Ireland. Pearse grew up in Ireland but had an English father. Erskine Childers was an Englishman. Constance Markievicz married a Pole. Robert Briscoe was the son of Jewish immigrants. Bulmer Hobson and Ernest Blythe were Ulster protestants. Not the best examples of exclusive ethnic nationalism.

Comparing legal immigration to colonization is utter drivel. Nobody is invading Ireland. People who apply for citiznship are legal immigrants who have come to Ireland for work or family reasons.

Yes we're in a different age so it's not exactly the same thing but history has taught us that mass immigration into Ireland previously has been a disaster for the native, ethnic Irish.

It's definitely becoming an issue for many people and it shouldn't be dismissed so readily.