Citizenship ruling.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

https://www.thejournal.ie/citizenship-high-court-residency-continuous-4728401-Jul2019/

THE HIGH COURT has ruled that nobody can be granted Irish citizenship if they have spent a single day outside the country in the past year.

The unexpected judgment, handed down by Mr Justice Max Barrett, could affect thousands of people applying for Irish citizenship on the basis of residence in the country.

Experts called the ruling “absurd”, pointing out that the law on citizenship has never been interpreted so strictly before.

This is lunacy. A person could lose out because of work travel or a trip to see a dying relative.

James Brown

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/citizenship-high-court-residency-continuous-4728401-Jul2019/



This is lunacy. A person could lose out because of work travel or a trip to see a dying relative.

We need some kind of a logic competency test for these legal types.

Eric Cartman

Matt Barrett wrote: »

We need some kind of a logic competency test for these legal types.

The irony of your username with this one

Allinall

He's only applying the law as it stands.

That particular law needs to be changed.

Alun

But if I go on holiday abroad for a week, I'm still continuously resident in Ireland for that time, I haven't suddenly become resident in France, Spain or whatever for that week. He harps on about the precise definition of "continuous" but seems oblivious as to what "resident" means.

Sir Oxman

It will be corrected with emergency legislation I'm sure.

More importantly, what has the govt. and GNIB being doing flouting the law since 1956!

ChikiChiki

Not a very practical ruling considering the amount of skilled foreign nationals driving the economy.

Varik

Alun wrote: »

But if I go on holiday abroad for a week, I'm still continuously resident in Ireland for that time, I haven't suddenly become resident in France, Spain or whatever for that week. He harps on about the precise definition of "continuous" but seems oblivious as to what "resident" means.

If the law said exclusive Irish resident or something else to that effect then the Judge might agree but it didn't.

Resident & Ordinary resident, are define. continuous resident was not.

By your definition there is no difference between continuous resident and resident.

Seth Brundle

Alun wrote: »

But if I go on holiday abroad for a week, I'm still continuously resident in Ireland for that time, I haven't suddenly become resident in France, Spain or whatever for that week. He harps on about the precise definition of "continuous" but seems oblivious as to what "resident" means.

If the Act does not permit the temporary leaving of the country and states that applicants must have 12 months of "continuous residence" then the law is at fault and the judge is merely highlighting it.

Seth Brundle

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Not a very practical ruling considering the amount of skilled foreign nationals driving the economy.

How many of them are not from the EU and are looking for residency status?

Jacovs

Seth Brundle wrote: »

How many of them are not from the EU and are looking for residency status?

I am, so is my manager in work. I literally made an appointment yesterday with a solicitor in town for monday to start my application process.
Visited family back home in December 2018 and already have holidays booked for coming December too. So according to this I will have to not leave the country for all of 2020 and only qualify in january 2021.

Edit, actually I have residency status, its citizenship we are applying for.

Seth Brundle

Jacovs wrote: »

I am, so is my manager in work. I literally made an appointment yesterday with a solicitor in town for monday to start my application process.
Visited family back home in December 2018 and already have holidays booked for coming December too. So according to this I will have to not leave the country for all of 2020 and only qualify in january 2021.

Edit, actually I have residency status, its citizenship we are applying for.

So ask everyone you know to contact their TDs to get the law changed to allow for temporary leaving of the country.
It is not the judge who is at fault but the law. TDs are the ones who change the law.

Atoms for Peace

How tayto packet tokens also you need now?

Seth Brundle

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

How tayto packet tokens also you need now?

Go on, have another go at writing that post!

Atoms for Peace

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Go on, have another go at writing that post!

So, how many tayto packet tokens is it now?

splinter65

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

How tayto packet tokens also you need now?

I don’t understand your question at all.

splinter65

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

So, how many tayto packet tokens is it now?

For what?

kneemos

Sure how would they know?

odyssey06

kneemos wrote: »

Sure how would they know?

Good point. Is there now an obligation on the authorities to check flight data etc for those 365 days?

Fann Linn

This was discussed earlier on the radio and a solicitor made the point that even one day trip to Belfast would nullify the application. I'm sure it will be changed.

Sinus pain

My husband is a British citizen. He might apply for Irish citizenship due to brexit. We go in holiday at least once a year- so this would essentially mean he wouldn’t be eligible?

Fann Linn

Sinus pain wrote: »

My husband is a British citizen. He might apply for Irish citizenship due to brexit. We go in holiday at least once a year- so this would essentially mean he wouldn’t be eligible?

As it now stands, Yes.

Jacovs

kneemos wrote: »

Sure how would they know?

My passport gets stamped and swiped each time I return to Ireland. Have to hand over passport when applying for citizenship.

Boggles

Sinus pain wrote: »

My husband is a British citizen. He might apply for Irish citizenship due to brexit.

Jesus, he should have done that 2 years ago.

Do it, this week.

The next time ye go to Spain he will be in a long line and you'll be waiting for him in the Car park.

katiek102010

Sinus pain wrote: »

My husband is a British citizen. He might apply for Irish citizenship due to brexit. We go in holiday at least once a year- so this would essentially mean he wouldn’t be eligible?

You need to prioritise. What is more important, a holiday or citizenship

Cheshire Cat

Sinus pain wrote: »

My husband is a British citizen. He might apply for Irish citizenship due to brexit. We go in holiday at least once a year- so this would essentially mean he wouldn’t be eligible?

Looks like you'll have to go for staycations

Sinus pain

Boggles wrote: »

Jesus, he should have done that 2 years ago.

Do it, this week.

The next time ye go to Spain he will be in a long line and you'll be waiting for him in the Car park.

Nah - don’t care if he has to queue. It’s over €1000 to get citizenship - and as it stands we don’t know what’s gonna happen. I don’t care if he has to queue he can follow me to the hotel where I’m sunning myself

Fann Linn

Sinus pain wrote: »

Nah - don’t care if he has to queue. It’s over €1000 to get citizenship - and as it stands we don’t know what’s gonna happen. I don’t care if he has to queue he can follow me to the hotel where I’m sinning myself

Freudian slip I'm sure.😇

Sinus pain

Varik

Sinus pain wrote: »

Nah - don’t care if he has to queue. It’s over €1000 to get citizenship - and as it stands we don’t know what’s gonna happen. I don’t care if he has to queue he can follow me to the hotel where I’m sunning myself

We don't know what's going to happen between the EU and UK. The UK will have to negotiate for itself with the rest of the world in any case especially going forward.

It might be easy to travel now to a certain country as you're both EU citizens, but in the future regardless of any EU deal he might need go through a more restrictive or get a more limited Visa for that country.

If it turns out Iran is a great fun future holiday destination, you get in cuz the EU and Iran are BFF and he doesn't as they keep trying to seize each others ships.

Sinus pain

We will worry about it when we know for sure. Sure we will have to wait at least a year now - and in the mean time if there’s a family emergency we will have to wait longer

osarusan

Seth Brundle wrote: »

If the Act does not permit the temporary leaving of the country and states that applicants must have 12 months of "continuous residence" then the law is at fault and the judge is merely highlighting it.

Not really.


This judge, and this judge alone, has interpreted the word 'continuous' to mean without any interruption whatsoever (even 1 day). Previously, it has always been interpreted differently.

It is absurd to conclude that a person who sleeps in their own bed 365 nights of the year, but flew out of Ireland for a business meeting, and flew back to Ireland on the same day, is not continuously resident in Ireland.

It also absurd for a judge to refer to a dictionary definition as if it has some kind of weight, when the only definition that matters is the legal definition. I can understand that Irish law may be lacking a precise definition of 'continuous residence', but that still doesn't explain his decision.

dulpit

I needed to send a lad at work to UK for day trip, he's Russian and is in final year before he can apply for citizenship. He said (this was a few weeks ago) that he couldn't due to this rule, he had seen on a message board from a few years ago that someone had hassle with the department or whoever makes decision because they had an exit and entry stamp in their passport in the final year. I told him he was being over the top, my sister's fiance is American and he got citizenship last year, they were on holidays in that final year.

He's been on holiday (in Ireland) last week and this, but looks like (for now) he's right. Which is a right pain in the hole for us, hopefully they'll emergency legislation this ASAP...

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

This ruling has certainly brought out a lot of knuggle dragging racists online.

Marcusm

Allinall wrote: »

He's only applying the law as it stands.

That particular law needs to be changed.

Is it though? The requirement is for continuous residence not continuous physical presence. Residence should not be equated with physical presence. A person may have their sole residence in a ireland but make may trips overseas. Provided these do not have them out of the country for more than half of the year and there is no single overseas jurisdiction which could be regarded as a “residence” then I fail to see how this can arise.

Zaph

The guy was out of the country for 100 days during the year long period he was claiming as his residency. I've no problem with the 3 days on business, there has to be some leeway to allow for that sort of thing and the legislation needs to be updated to take business trips, family emergencies, and even short holidays into account. Previously it was accepted that a person could be out of the country for up to 6 weeks without affecting that residency, but on top of the 3 days for business he was on holidays for 97 days. Even if the judge was accepting the previously accepted convention, he was still away for way over six weeks. I'm not really sure how he thinks he has grounds to appeal taking into account either the old interpretation of the judge's new one.

wilsixon

My wife and I had our applications rejected last year for this reason - 2 weeks holiday/conference in Europe for her and 5 weeks for me.
We had assumed we'd be fine as we were both under the six weeks. So it appears INIS were already applying this absurd understanding (at least in some cases) before this court ruling.

Twickers

Does this mean that all the TDs who went on their Junkets on St Patricks Day will have their citizens accreditation revoked ?
Might not be a bad idea

splinter65

Twickers wrote: »

Does this mean that all the TDs who went on their Junkets on St Patricks Day will have their citizens accreditation revoked ?
Might not be a bad idea

That’s not even close to a relevant analogy. What is a citizens accreditation anyway? There’s no such thing.
Nowhere does the law say that you’re not a citizen if you leave the country.
That would be ludicrous.
This is a rule pertaining to applications for citizenship. And it is a point about interpretation of a rule within that application process.

weldoninhio

You'd swear it was a hardship having to stay in Ireland for 365 days!!!

Tell me how

weldoninhio wrote: »

You'd swear it was a hardship having to stay in Ireland for 365 days!!!

Point. Missed.

Cheshire Cat

weldoninhio wrote: »

You'd swear it was a hardship having to stay in Ireland for 365 days!!!

It is if you have family abroad. We were contemplating to go for Irish Citizenship because it looks like we are here for good and we would like to be able to vote and it's easier to renew an Irish passport. Having to deal with the embassy isn't much fun.
My husband attends a lot of conferences and meetings abroad and I'm sure his employer wouldn't be impressed if he told them he had to stay put for an entire year.
We also have elderly parents who we go to see regularly. There are family occasions and so on.
We do have European passports, so it doesn't really matter, but it is still annoying.

splinter65

weldoninhio wrote: »

You'd swear it was a hardship having to stay in Ireland for 365 days!!!

For some it’s not just a hardship it’s impossible. Lots of people have to leave the country for work very frequently. Lots of people have unavoidable family occasions abroad. Imagine if you couldn’t visit your dying close family.

weldoninhio

splinter65 wrote: »

For some it’s not just a hardship it’s impossible. Lots of people have to leave the country for work very frequently. Lots of people have unavoidable family occasions abroad. Imagine if you couldn’t visit your dying close family.

How often is it going to happen that someone is dying, seriously. I'm sure if you explained the situation to work something could be done. Excuses, excuses, excuses.

odyssey06

weldoninhio wrote: »

How often is it going to happen that someone is dying, seriously. I'm sure if you explained the situation to work something could be done. Excuses, excuses, excuses.

Or we could just interpret the legislation like any sane country would.
Why are we making excuses for this clown of a judge?

SoundsRight

I don't think it's that unreasonable to ask people who want to become citizens of our country to actually stay here for 365 days.

CheweeB

On reading the legislation (I'm no expert)- but there is the following, I'm taking this to mean that in certain circumstances the Minister may apply discretion:

"16.—The Minister may, if he thinks fit, grant an application for a certificate of naturalisation in the following cases, although the conditions for naturalisation (or any of them) are not complied with:

(a) where the applicant is of Irish descent or Irish associations;

(b) where the applicant is a parent or guardian acting on behalf of a minor of Irish descent or Irish associations;

(c) where the applicant is a naturalised Irish citizen acting on behalf of his minor child;

(d) where the applicant is a woman who is married to a naturalised Irish citizen;

(e) where the applicant is married to a woman who is an Irish citizen (otherwise than by naturalisation);

(f) where the applicant is or has been resident abroad in the public service."

Tell me how

odyssey06 wrote: »

Or we could just interpret the legislation like any sane country would.
Why are we making excuses for this clown of a judge?

Because some people like the idea of anything inhibiting foreigners becoming citizens.

odyssey06

SoundsRight wrote: »

I don't think it's that unreasonable to ask people who want to become citizens of our country to actually stay here for 365 days.

Yes it is.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say they must a resident of this state for 365 days and no others, but to say they cannot stay overnight outside the state even for 1 night is absurd and unreasonable. It's completely incompatible with our membership of the European Union, which has freedom of travel as one of its pillars & our common travel area with the UK.

Roberto_gas

Can someone get away with tax payment for the year if they are considered non-resident for the entire year based on this definition of continuous !

SoundsRight

odyssey06 wrote: »

Yes it is.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say they must a resident of this state for 365 days and no others, but to say they cannot stay overnight outside the state even for 1 night is absurd and unreasonable. It's completely incompatible with our membership of the European Union, which has freedom of travel as one of its pillars & our common travel area with the UK.

It's got nothing to do with the EU or any travel arrangemnts. People still have the right to enter and leave the country. But if they want to apply for Irish citizenship, they have to stay here. There has to be some sort of fealty test. We're already throwing them around like confetti as it is.