Woman rakes up 648 convictions

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It would be cheaper in the individual case to leave her on the street but is very costly to society as it sets the precedent thst the state won't intervene. It would take a lot of 10 euro bottles of wine to equal the cost of the police, trial, prison induction procedures and actual imprisonment. Up to 1,850 euro week.

If this kind of huge money is going to be spent, it should at least offer significantly reduced likelihood of recidivism through rehabilitation of whatever kind is most appropriate.

Exactly.

I don't have much hope that a person of this age, with this record, is going to ever turn her life around. If she has an addiction to drugs, legal or illicit, she's already approaching her life expectancy.

But there's no use in whining about the costs of our reaction, whilst simultaneously endorsing the same failed policy again and again.

Either we need to ignore this criminality, or we need to change tack. Because what we're doing now is only costing more money and resolving nothing.

Frankly, we're prolonging her misery and burning public money.

Graces7

Hal3000 wrote: »

I don't enjoy punishment, not sure where you're getting that from, but if it suits your narrative then you can keep suggesting it. So when would you suggest intervening? 4th, 10th or 20th offence? And who exactly will intervene and what will they do? As far as I can see now in Ireland we have no punishment and no intervention which as I pointed out earlier means a lawless society.

Maybe find some stats as some criminals do not warrant calling this a lawless society. Define also no punishment" in a case like this? People are sent to jail daily.

El_Duderino 09

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Exactly.

I don't have much hope that a person of this age, with this record, is going to ever turn her life around. If she has an addiction to drugs, legal or illicit, she's already approaching her life expectancy.

But there's no use in whining about the costs of our reaction, whilst simultaneously endorsing the same failed policy again and again.

Either we need to ignore this criminality, or we need to change tack. Because what we're doing now is only costing more money and resolving nothing.

Frankly, we're prolonging her misery and burning public money.

That's a really interesting point. The long term focus would be on communities so the long term benefits would be realised when people are born into communities without the major problems that lead to increased crime rates. But at the same time you have to deal with the current people who have little prospects of turning their lives around like the woman in the story. So you would need to pay for the current warehousing approach alongside investing in the future preventative approach. It would be expensive.

I suppose it's a matter of how important you think crime is to a society. If you care about victims and society in general, they you're more likely to endorse the investment in the future. If you mostly care about punishment, then you're likely to ignore the future and focus purely on longer sentences and more of the current approach.

Boggles

Hal3000 wrote: »

As far as I can see now in Ireland we have no punishment and no intervention which as I pointed out earlier means a lawless society.

Hal3000

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's the fact that you keep forgetting my answer to this question that leads me to think you have no interest in information about anything except the punishment.

So I'll answer your question (as I do in all the threads where you ask a variation of this question). I would suggest a multi pronged approach which deals with the causes of crime as well as the consequences of crime. A research led approach focused on prevention, then a justice system which focuses on punishment, rehabilitation, restorative justice and public safety.

I actually care about victims. The fewer victims that better. And those people who are victimised should have a system which prioritises restorative justice but first and foremost, it should prioritise preventing crime by addressing the causative factors which lead to crime.

So, What do you suggest?

Good solution for a progressive modern country, but unfortunately not Ireland. Cmon, we can't even deliver Healthcare properly. Therefore until we have leadership that can deliver these programs my opinion is that law and order must take precidence and protect citizens from repeat offenders.

Hal3000

Boggles wrote: »

Glad you could contribute to the debate.

El_Duderino 09

Hal3000 wrote: »

Good solution for a progressive modern country, but unfortunately not Ireland. Cmon, we can't even deliver Healthcare properly. Therefore until we have leadership that can deliver these programs my opinion is that law and order must take precidence and protect citizens from repeat offenders.

Though I've never really understood it, I recognise this inferiority complex about what Irish people are capable of. I often think that if people of another nationality expressed such lowly opinions of Irish people's capabilities, we would rebel by creating a utopia just to spite them.

Hal3000

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Though I've never really understood it, I recognise this inferiority complex about what Irish people are capable of. I often think that if people of another nationality expressed such lowly opinions of Irish people's capabilities, we would rebel by creating a utopia just to spite them.

Sorry you've taken me up wrong again. Irish people are incredibly resourceful, smart and capable people. Unfortunately the people who run this country are not. If real Irish people, and I don't mean race or ethnicity, I mean Irish people who are voted in on merit and for the work they have done to better this country not placed by cronyism, if they were in Government we would have far less issues than we have today.

Nermal

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It should prioritise preventing crime by addressing the causative factors which lead to crime.

The main causative factor leading to crime is habitual criminals not being in prison. Lock them up and keep them there, and crime will fall.

Sonny noggs

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I think she has no interest or capacity in/to single-handedly turning her life around, and to that extent she is taking the piss.

The question for us is whether we continue to throw money at the problem, knowing we won't fix it? Definition of insanity, etc.

What do you want to do, throw her in prison for 10 years at a cost of over a million euro, prolong her life and expect her to be healthy and wise upon release? Its probably cheaper to keep her out in society, in the long run, and allow the inevitable to happen (without wanting to be too macabre).

If we want to address problems like this, we need to radically change our approach to failed methods.

I meant the poster not the criminal.

Sonny noggs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

LOL. You think arguing for criminal hospitals and rehabilitation is taking the piss?

Rehabilitation for someone with 600 convictions. Do you realise how silly that sounds?

El_Duderino 09

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Rehabilitation for someone with 600 convictions. Do you realise how silly that sounds?

I'm proposing rehabilitation early doors. The notion that someone could get to 600 offences without a proper and serious attempt at addressing the issues as to why they are such a prolific recidivist, sounds silly to me.

El_Duderino 09

Nermal wrote: »

The main causative factor leading to crime is habitual criminals not being in prison. Lock them up and keep them there, and crime will fall.

I really wish i were that naive. Life would be so much easier if i believed things were so simple.

hatrickpatrick

People like this should be given life sentences by virtue of being career criminals, with the possibility of parole tied directly to demonstrated reformation and commitment to becoming a decent person while behind bars.

Sonny noggs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm proposing rehabilitation early doors. The notion that someone could get to 600 offences without a proper and serious attempt at addressing the issues as to why they are such a prolific recidivist, sounds silly to me.

So no serious attempts have been made to date for this lady? Or have they repeatedly failed?

El_Duderino 09

Hal3000 wrote: »

Sorry you've taken me up wrong again. Irish people are incredibly resourceful, smart and capable people. Unfortunately the people who run this country are not. If real Irish people, and I don't mean race or ethnicity, I mean Irish people who are voted in on merit and for the work they have done to better this country not placed by cronyism, if they were in Government we would have far less issues than we have today.

LOL. So "Irish people are incredibly resourceful, smart and capable people" except when they vote, they vote for inept politicians. The solution sounds simple enough for me, start voting for the less inept politicians. The process of "evolution by voting for competency", could begin any time. Michael Lowry is a great example of a person without a moral compass, but he has the safest seat in the country.

El_Duderino 09

Sonny noggs wrote: »

So no serious attempts have been made to date for this lady? Or have they repeatedly failed?

I don't have the details. Do you?

Sonny noggs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't have the details. Do you?

No, but of course we should give her the benefit of the doubt.

El_Duderino 09

Sonny noggs wrote: »

No, but of course we should give her the benefit of the doubt.

You can give her the benefit of the doubt if you like but I'm working from the fact that the Irish criminal justice system doesn't focus on rehabilitation.

Sonny noggs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You can give her the benefit of the doubt if you like but I'm working from the fact that the Irish criminal justice system doesn't focus on rehabilitation.

So how did she get off ‘the drugs’? Heroin and cocaine. Cold turkey was it? No support from the state there I guess. Let’s see how she gets on with her ‘last chance’, that will give us an idea of how she would have engaged with any rehabilitation program.

El_Duderino 09

Sonny noggs wrote: »

So how did she get off ‘the drugs’? Heroin and cocaine. Cold turkey was it? No support from the state there I guess. Let’s see how she gets on with her ‘last chance’, that will give us an idea of how she would have engaged with any rehabilitation program.

If she got off drugs I assume she did it with funding from either the state, a charity or she funded it herself. So let's assume it's one of the first two. That's a great Intervention and worth state/charity investment, , wouldn't you say?

And if drug addiction was the only reason she committed crimes then.it would have been sufficient. But like I said, the Irish criminal justice system doesn't prioritise rehabilitation. I'd suggest more funding and more focus on rehabilitation as one part of the approach to crime.

Sonny noggs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If she got off drugs I assume she did it with funding from either the state, a charity or she funded it herself. So let's assume it's one of the first two. That's a great Intervention and worth state/charity investment, , wouldn't you say?

And if drug addiction was the only reason she committed crimes then.it would have been sufficient. But like I said, the Irish criminal justice system doesn't prioritise rehabilitation. I'd suggest more funding and more focus on rehabilitation as one part of the approach to crime.

She turned to alcohol, she is now an alcoholic.

punisher5112

punisher5112 wrote: »

My heart bleeds....

No wonder they can do what they want when there are those like you ...

The thing is, we are all free to do what we want.... then we face the consequences.


What's your suggestion, beheading, cut off her hands perhaps... Maybe a good old fashioned stoning....


While "your Heart Bleeds" do you have a reasonable solution to societal problems like this?


If not I'd suggest you keep your great idea's and nuggets of useless wisdom to yourself.


Perhaps her life of addiction, theft, recidivism, and jailing is absolutely fantastic indeed and the rest of us just don't realise what we are missing out on.


God, I love the "Hang em High" brigade.................

El_Duderino 09

Sonny noggs wrote: »

She turned to alcohol, she is now an alcoholic.

Quite common i think. What's your point?

Do at least try to address the questions And points I raised in the last post.

Sonny noggs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Quite common i think. What's your point?

Do at least try to address the questions And points I raised in the last post.

You have no points. She will never be rehabilitated. She will rinse and repeat until she ends up dead, no matter what the state does. And good riddance.

El_Duderino 09

Sonny noggs wrote: »

You have no points. She will never be rehabilitated. She will rinse and repeat until she ends up dead, no matter what the state does. And good riddance.

Oh I see. You missed the explicit question so I'll Repeat it: would you prefer to attempt to rehabilitate a heroine and cocaine addict or would you prefer to send them back whenever their sentence is Complete, as a drug addict?

The other point was that that if the drug addiction was the only reason she committed crimes, then that's the only thing you need to address. But neither you nor I know anything about her and the point was generalisable and to criminals with out 600 convictions.

Your response that she's now an alcoholic was bizarre because its covered by the point in the second paragraph you quoted. But in case I missed it, did you have a point?

Odhinn

Sonny noggs wrote: »

You have no points. She will never be rehabilitated. She will rinse and repeat until she ends up dead, no matter what the state does. And good riddance.

So you think that allowing a maladjusted individual to continually commit crime is a more sensible approach than medical intervention?

Sonny noggs

Odhinn wrote: »

So you think that allowing a maladjusted individual to continually commit crime is a more sensible approach than medical intervention?

Lock her up till she dies, problem solved.

Odhinn

Sonny noggs wrote: »

Lock her up till she dies, problem solved.

Which would probably cost more than her rehabilitation.

Sonny noggs

Odhinn wrote: »

Which would probably cost more than her rehabilitation.

No, it wouldn’t, if you factored in the total cost to her victims, court appearances, free legal aid it would be the bargain of the century.