Ireland's Jewish community

RIGOLO

Wibbs wrote: »

This can be partially explained again by a certain snobbishness towards some pursuits among the largely Christian background population. The stage was seen as decidedly unbecoming of a gentleman and ladies were thought of a little more than prostitutes if they appeared on it. The new tech of film was also considered a bit dodgy and Non U in the early days. Before the "glamour" of Hollywood came along it was considered a bit grubby a field so tended to attract more folks who were outside the social pale looking to make their way, Jews in particular(when we consider that private clubs were almost exclusively for European Americans, better if Protestant and Jews were barred from membership). This slant was much more in play in the US, if we look at European cinema as a comparison the numbers of Jewish people involved is far less. If European cinema had taken over the world the "Jews run the movie business" would not be the meme it is.

The vast majority of this kinda thing is cultural and that changes over time. Go back a couple of thousand years and the poor man of Europe today, Greece would have contained the people with the most Nobel prizes and they regarded Jews, when they regarded them at all, as just another friendly enough quaint little middle eastern bunch under their influence after Alex took over the Persian empire. hell if you look at our own country and go back to the early Medieval in Europe it would have been a lot of Irish monks walking away with the Nobel prizes, yet fast forward a few centuries and you'd see bad English comedians entertaining the cheap seats with jokes about thick Paddies.

It seems to depend on what a culture values over time. If it values learning more you get learned people, if it values commerce more you get a strong middle and upper class, if it values strongmen or cutehoorism more, you end up with strongmen and cute hoors.


Some Germans, even hardcore nazis and antisemites did at times question this. Mainly those soldiers on the Russian front. One guy I read noted it specifically that to him these people were dirt poor with nothing and reminded him of poorer versions of his own country relatives and hardly a threat and why were they going for these people and not after the "bankers" like was promised. More than a few noted that the rich had already fled years previously. As ever it's nearly always the poor who get it most in the neck when crap goes down. You saw that in many places in Eastern Europe and long before the nazis came long, where murderous pogroms were a annual sport and again it was nearly always the poor who were attacked, usually by their fellows in poverty.

Im surprised this chap found time for such a thoughtful reflection on the extermination of the poor Jewish people.
Id have thought he was far too busy raping every girl between Brest and Moscow over the age of 12 who was too slow to flee Operation Barborossa.

I suspect when he recieved his MG-42 he naturally assumed its 8mm round was only destined for bankers, so I can understand his surprise that in fact they worked equally as well on Russian villagers .

Ahh the misunderstood German Nazi.

Wibbs

RIGOLO wrote: »

Im surprised this chap found time for such a thoughtful reflection on the extermination of the poor Jewish people.
Id have thought he was far too busy raping every girl between Brest and Moscow over the age of 12 who was too slow to flee Operation Barborossa.

I suspect when he recieved his MG-42 he naturally assumed its 8mm round was only destined for bankers, so I can understand his surprise that in fact they worked equally as well on Russian villagers .

Ahh the misunderstood German Nazi.

Bless. The Hollywood black hat bad, white hat good take on history. You do understand that while rape in that war was all too commonplace, the hun though well versed in the usual murderous rampages didn't particularly stand out in this regard and the worst of them of all in the western theatres were numbered among the Soviet troops? The French weren't too far behind. In the East the Japanese made it a near divine purpose and sport. Ah but that doesn't quite fit your simplistic narrative of course. You need the saturday matinee, tune in next week, good/evil story. Your position is either ignorant, wilfully or not, shilling for another purpose, or an easy comfort in its simplicity, or a mix of all of the above.

Oh and nobody was actually issued an MG-42 and it wasn't an 8mm round. It was a company weapon and a minority weapon in the field and not exactly a sidearm(real life isn't a Rambo flic), but I suppose wiki and crib sheets looking for outrage to telegraph only cover so much for the ignorant of such things.

RIGOLO

Wibbs wrote: »

Bless. The Hollywood black hat bad, white hat good take on history. You do understand that while rape in that war was all too commonplace, the hun though well versed in the usual murderous rampages didn't particularly stand out in this regard and the worst of them of all in the western theatres were numbered among the Soviet troops? The French weren't too far behind. In the East the Japanese made it a near divine purpose and sport. Ah but that doesn't quite fit your simplistic narrative of course. You need the saturday matinee, tune in next week, good/evil story. Your position is either ignorant, wilfully or not, shilling for another purpose, or an easy comfort in its simplicity, or a mix of all of the above.

Oh and nobody was actually issued an MG-42. It was a company weapon and a minority weapon in the field and not exactly a sidearm(real life isn't a Rambo flic), but I suppose wiki and crib sheets looking for outrage to telegraph only cover so much for the ignorant of such things.

yes but your ignoring the giant Nazi elephant in the room

one of us is defending Germany and one of us is not ..

And whats wrong with a matinee show, its a great way to spend a Saturday.

as to your military weapons references theres a clear misunderstanding there on your part.. anyone who thinks 400,000 8mm MG42s was a minority weapon in the field clearly does not understand the effect of such a weapon in use.

LETHAL LADY

Probably has been mentioned already?? but the "One of Us" documentary about Hasidic Jews is worth a watch. Very odd traditions and stifling for any of those born within, but with respect to their beliefs....they are no more ridiculous or oppressive than any other of the religious cults imo.

How Soon Is Now

Jesus.....

Irelands Jewish community....

Who's gives a ****.

ILoveYourVibes

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Jesus.....

Irelands Jewish community....

Who's gives a ****.

:mad:

How Soon Is Now

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

:mad:

?

ILoveYourVibes

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

?

You should care ....we're really nice!

How Soon Is Now

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You should care ....we're really nice!

So your a jew I take it?

That's nice.

ILoveYourVibes

Originally Posted by Wibbs View Post

Some Germans, even hardcore nazis and antisemites did at times question this. Mainly those soldiers on the Russian front. One guy I read noted it specifically that to him these people were dirt poor with nothing and reminded him of poorer versions of his own country relatives and hardly a threat and why were they going for these people and not after the "bankers" like was promised. More than a few noted that the rich had already fled years previously. As ever it's nearly always the poor who get it most in the neck when crap goes down. You saw that in many places in Eastern Europe and long before the nazis came long, where murderous pogroms were a annual sport and again it was nearly always the poor who were attacked, usually by their fellows in poverty.

This cannot be true for several reasons. One of which is much of the antisemitic propaganda depicted Jews as poor but in this case highlighting the stigmatic character of being poor for example that Jews where dirty etc.

This was done through imagery and cinematic techniques.

The film 'The Eternal Jew' is one such example. Suss the Jew is another.

I have to say one of people who explains this best although i agree with nothing else he says ...Is Jordan Peterson.

Please understand this. Most Germans were not well educated at the time. Very few completing secondary school.

The Nazis didn't use lofty educated ideas or lectures. This was not socialism or communism.

Jews were simultaneously running the world and the worst characteristics of being poor.

They dismissed the hypocrisy of this by saying ' they have money but they love living in dirt'. Which no one truly believed.

All this is done by inference not directly in German films at the time.



Germans knew the people they were persecuting were poor. German soldiers knew people they were hunting would be poor. They were expecting it. They would not have been surprised. German propaganda had specifically trained them to expect it.

There are two reactions to seeing impoverished people one is compassion and one is disgust. The second is not something you want to carelessly evoke. Think about it. When you see a beggar you can have two reactions. To give money to feel compassion. Or to feel disgust. To imagine their perversions or addictions. Its a part of the mortal human condition. One which can be manipulated.

Its interesting that many people who went on to work in magazines and papers in Europe after the war were very aware of this second reaction. The nazis even used fashion and fashion magazines as propaganda.

In contrast to the way Jews were depicted there were magazines like
'Frauen Warte' which depicted Hitler's vision for Germany. It was very clean very white and very oldey worldy.

Nazi propaganda was much more sophisticated than Allied propaganda at the time. And all encompassing in every aspect of German life. You couldn't have that level of propaganda in a democratic country.

https://marthahallkelly.com/the-scary-nazi-magazine-that-mixed-fashion-with-fascism/

Germans hated the Jews for being rich and poor at the same time. The Nazi regime was not logical it was emotional. The entire idea was evoke disgust and hatred of Jews and Slavs. It didn't need to make sense. In fact the entire idea was to make people ABANDON logic and evoke emotions on the negative side of the spectrum.

It wasn't that different to what people had done in Europe for centuries.

It is why arguing with Nazis never works.


You will never find an entire screening of the Eternal Jew on Youtube or possibly anywhere. It's censored. Rightly so. Its incredibly clever and sophisticated. And you only have to look at the comments below the video Jordan Peterson did on it to know it works.


And just to say I in no way endorse Jordan Peterson.

Interestingly now the German Military is built around disobedience.

American military law states that an order can only be disobeyed if it is unlawful. However, the German military manual states that a military order is not binding if it is not “of any use for service,” or cannot reasonably be executed. In fact, if the order denies human dignity to the armed forces member or the order’s target, it must not be obeyed.

In practice, that means that a soldier or armed forces administrator can ignore a superior officer’s order—even if it’s in the midst of combat or is given by a high-ranking official.

https://www.history.com/news/why-german-soldiers-dont-have-to-obey-orders

I think that is brilliant

ILoveYourVibes

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

So your a jew I take it?

That's nice.

I am.

I am puzzled however why you are commenting on a thread topic you don't care about.

It comes across as being triggered or easily irritated or at worst trolling.

Is it taking up a lot of space? Would you like us to move it somewhere?

odyssey06

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Jesus.....
Irelands Jewish community....
Who's gives a ****.

If only everyone had taken that attitude in Europe there would have been no pogroms, no expulsions, no forced conversions etc... so this might be progress if we assume it means a "live and let live" approach

Baggly

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Jesus.....

Irelands Jewish community....

Who's gives a ****.

Mod

Get ta' flip out of this thread.

Dont post here again please.

Wibbs

RIGOLO wrote: »

yes but your ignoring the giant Nazi elephant in the room

one of us is defending Germany and one of us is not ..

Nice try, but nope, I'm afraid not. I am saying history is far more complex than you want to believe and can actually see the irony of someone painting an entire nation of people one way in a discussion on racism towards another group of people.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Please understand this. Most Germans were not well educated at the time. Very few completing secondary school.

Oh education under the regime was one of the main tools used to boost the regime, but not for the reasons you give. Again it's more complex than that. Germans were as educated as any other nation in Europe at the time and more than some. An under educated Germany wouldn't have been able to come up with technological advances at the rate they did. However their education was twisted to the aims of the regime and the need for "ideal" soldiers willing to die for the cause and "ideal" mothers willing to fire out babies for same.

Peregrinus

While Germans were, on average, educated to a lower standard in the 1930s than they are today, this is true for every country. Relative to other European countries at the time, Germany in the 1930s was a well-educated society.

It's also true that the Nazis sought to turn the German education system into an explicitly Nazi one, but remember the the Nazis were in fact only in power for 12 years. People who were adults during the war years, who devised and implemented Nazi policies and committed Nazi crimes, had all been conventionally educated, as had those who voted for the Nazis in the 1930s before the regime stopped bothering to hold elections at all. Conversely, anyone who went through 12 years of a nazified education system was graduating from high school just as the Nazi regime was dying in the squalor of the Führerbunker.

So, the attempt to nazify the educations system may have been appalling, but it wasn't in operation for long enough to produce much in the way of real-world effects.

Wibbs

Peregrinus wrote: »

So, the attempt to nazify the educations system may have been appalling, but it wasn't in operation for long enough to produce much in the way of real-world effects.

I'd agree P, save for one real world effect; it encouraged those kids in the system to report on the adults around them for wrong think. Now while actual prosecutions were rare enough in the grand scheme of things that had an impact on adults under the regime. Kept them quieter.

One organisation did have a real world effect on young Germans, the Hitler Youth. At its peak it had IIRC something like 6 or 8 million members and was hard to avoid if you were a teenaged boy(there was a similar organisation for German girls). It was where the heavy duty indoctrination was focused. A large percentage of German troops were ex Hitler youth.

RIGOLO

Wibbs wrote: »

Nice try, but nope, I'm afraid not. I am saying history is far more complex than you want to believe and can actually see the irony of someone painting an entire nation of people one way in a discussion on racism towards another group of people.

Oh education under the regime was one of the main tools used to boost the regime, but not for the reasons you give. Again it's more complex than that. Germans were as educated as any other nation in Europe at the time and more than some. An under educated Germany wouldn't have been able to come up with technological advances at the rate they did. However their education was twisted to the aims of the regime and the need for "ideal" soldiers willing to die for the cause and "ideal" mothers willing to fire out babies for same.

Indeed history can be complex, equally history can be put in simplistic terms also.
Churchill my favourite historian always spoke of this , he reminds us of this simplicity in Volume 1 of The Great War , his classic on WW1.
I cant find the page as my 1st Edition is falling apart but he remarks how one should never forget that NATIONS do not go to war, it is people. Ultimately it is people who make the decisions that act out in war. Never forget there is a person behind what you see mainfest in life.

The ONLY thing that stopped the NAZI whip from achieving its aims was the resistance of one NATION standing together and standing firm under WSC in his other guise as leader, ralllying all its citizens to answer the call and make the ultimate sacrifice if neccessary .

Why did it require a WHOLE nation to rally behind this call for resistance ?
Why did it require a WHOLE nation to oppose the NAZI whip ?

Because a WHOLE nation was behind the oppressor.
A WHOLE German nation rallied to the call of Hitler
A WHOLE German nation rallied to the ideal presented

as Newtons 3rd law teaches us , for every action it takes an equal and oppossite reaction .

England had to rally EVERYONE , The WHOLE Nation (effectively) from teenage girls commandered to work the fields and land to 70 year old Home Guard veterans, cos Germany had rallied and equal and oppossing force (EVERYONE, The WHOLE NATIONS effectively) to support their war machine .

Find your exceptions if they offer you succor ,
Find the anecdotes of German soldiers surprised they werent just shooting Jewish bankers but also poor Jewish people if that comforts you .
Be pedantic and take issue if the proverbial EVERYONE is used by me and you think Germany was made up of Claus Von Stauffenbergs if that gives you solace.

The story of history has already been written , it cant be unwritten even if you call it complex and try to find nuance to be more complimentary to the German nation.

How Soon Is Now

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Jesus.....

Irelands Jewish community....

Who's gives a ****.

It's at least as interesting as any other community. Having read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers, the part about the significance of Jewish settlement and the factors which decided what professions they joined in eastern European countries, it's possibly more interesting (due to penal laws banning Jews from land ownership they tended to locate in urban areas and become stronger in trades and other occupations from which they weren't banned and this gave them a distinct advantage when moving to America in the 19th century/at a time of greater urbanisation. In an analogous manner, about the only Irish Catholics who excelled financially during our Penal Laws were traders, particularly wine merchants in Galway, as while they were banned from land ownership they were not banned from trading and an obvious political consequence of this is they became a central link between the Irish Colleges in the continent and home).

I passed by a 'Moravian cemetery' out in Rathfarnham recently and started googling and found loads of information about that community which has been in Ireland since the early 18th century. These mostly obscure social histories are almost entirely neglected by the so-called professional historians of Ireland, who rather than follow a French historiographical tradition focused on social history merely ape the English historiographical tradition of elite/political/military history. Our knowledge of our own society is poorly served by this (state-funded) emphasis. This explains much of why we are only recently discovering about homes, industrial schools and the like. Similarly, an understanding of the role played in Irish society by Jews enriches our understanding of our own history so no harm at all in it.

Aside from Dermot Keogh's 1998 study on Jews in 20th-century Ireland, the UCD economic historian Cormac Ó Gráda has recently written a 300-page history of Jewish Ireland in the Age of Joyce: A Socioeconomic History (Princeton, 2016)

Here's a synopsis of Ó Gráda's book:

James Joyce's Leopold Bloom--the atheistic Everyman of Ulysses, son of a Hungarian Jewish father and an Irish Protestant mother--may have turned the world's literary eyes on Dublin, but those who look to him for history should think again. He could hardly have been a product of the city's bona fide Jewish community, where intermarriage with outsiders was rare and piety was pronounced. In Jewish Ireland in the Age of Joyce, a leading economic historian tells the real story of how Jewish Ireland--and Dublin's Little Jerusalem in particular--made ends meet from the 1870s, when the first Lithuanian Jewish immigrants landed in Dublin, to the late 1940s, just before the community began its dramatic decline.


In 1866--the year Bloom was born--Dublin's Jewish population hardly existed, and on the eve of World War I it numbered barely three thousand. But this small group of people quickly found an economic niche in an era of depression, and developed a surprisingly vibrant web of institutions.


In a richly detailed, elegantly written blend of historical, economic, and demographic analysis, Cormac Ó Gráda examines the challenges this community faced. He asks how its patterns of child rearing, schooling, and cultural and religious behavior influenced its marital, fertility, and infant-mortality rates. He argues that the community's small size shaped its occupational profile and influenced its acculturation; it also compromised its viability in the long run.



Jewish Ireland in the Age of Joyce presents a fascinating portrait of a group of people in an unlikely location who, though small in number, comprised Ireland's most resilient immigrant community until the Celtic Tiger's immigration surge of the 1990s.

sbsquarepants

Don't know any myself (that i'm aware of anyway, i don't think i have ever asked anyone what their religious beliefs are!) When i was younger my grandmother and her daughters all used to borrow money off the jew man - his name was Mr Bagel, very nice man as far as i can remember, nicer than the average door to door money lender anyway!

storker

RIGOLO wrote: »

yes but your ignoring the giant Nazi elephant in the room

one of us is defending Germany and one of us is not ..

And whats wrong with a matinee show, its a great way to spend a Saturday.

as to your military weapons references theres a clear misunderstanding there on your part.. anyone who thinks 400,000 8mm MG42s was a minority weapon in the field clearly does not understand the effect of such a weapon in use.

Actually not a company weapon but a squad weapon, so 1 in 10, later 1 in 8, sometimes two in certain types of unit, but still a minority weapon.

Baggly

Mod

Lads lets reign in the OT discussion. The Op is fairly straight forward. Feel free to start another thread in the relevant forum with regards to the German Jews in WW2, nor German military history.

This thread is for the Irish Jewish community living here now.

Thanks

storker

Wibbs wrote: »

Some Germans, even hardcore nazis and antisemites did at times question this. Mainly those soldiers on the Russian front. One guy I read noted it specifically that to him these people were dirt poor with nothing and reminded him of poorer versions of his own country relatives

This reminds me of a point made in Beevor's "Berlin 1945 - The Downfall", which describe Russian soldiers enraged at the good living conditions they found as they entered East Prussia and Germany. Their attitude was "These people live so well and have so much, why did they need to invade us?"

Collie D

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ireland’s oldest Jewish cemetery to reopen after 40 years (The Irish Times, 15 July 2019)

I have walked by that place dozens of times on the way to/from Croke Park and always wondered what the story with the date was - thanks for that.

Wibbs

RIGOLO wrote: »

The ONLY thing that stopped the NAZI whip from achieving its aims was the resistance of one NATION standing together and standing firm under WSC in his other guise as leader, ralllying all its citizens to answer the call and make the ultimate sacrifice if neccessary

Christ you really swallowed English propaganda hook line and sinker. but we'll leave it at that.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

It's at least as interesting as any other community. Having read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers, the part about the significance of Jewish settlement and the factors which decided what professions they joined in eastern European countries, it's possibly more interesting (due to penal laws banning Jews from land ownership they tended to locate in urban areas and become stronger in trades and other occupations from which they weren't banned and this gave them a distinct advantage when moving to America in the 19th century/at a time of greater urbanisation.

+1. the relative success of Jewish folks ironically stems from earlier barriers to them and when urbanisation increased they were among those best placed to thrive in it.

These mostly obscure social histories are almost entirely neglected by the so-called professional historians of Ireland, who rather than follow a French historiographical tradition focused on social history merely ape the English historiographical tradition of elite/political/military history.

Quoted for truth.

RIGOLO

Wibbs wrote: »

Christ you really swallowed English propaganda hook line and sinker. but we'll leave it at that.

if that will add more succor, comfort and solace to your position , feel free to embrace that idea

lets not mention German propaganda

We can leave it at that, theres so many elephants in that room you have created its become a target for ivory poachers

the dark phantom

I done a history module on antisemitism and the rubbish and accusations people of Jewish faith had to endure over the centuries was nothing short of ridiculous. I'm no fan of Israels foreign policies but if Europeans hadn't swallowed such rubbish about Jews over the centuries than we wouldn't be where we are now regarding Israel, Holocaust etc. The Holocaust was the worse and most idiotic thing Europe ever did. I'll be doing a module on Nazism during the war soon so should be interesting as well as disturbing.

Gloomtastic!

^^^^^^ I thought Dublin’s Little Jerusalem referred to North Dublin, around Drumcondra, and the proliferation of Catholic establishments, like All Hallows, with their huge land banks. Little Jerusalem - the Holy Land.

ScottCapper

I wish I was Jewish or Muslim. They seem like the two only half decent/interesting religions