How common is it for people to never find an other half or have kids?

Tikki Wang Wang

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Plenty of people lie on the death beds wishing they had travelled more.

There are fewer greater pleasures in life than slamming a stiff hot penile into a moist warm vageen

Tony EH

Fourier wrote: »

You blaspheme against the great toddler god?

I made the mistake of calling the show 'Peppermint Pig' to one of my nieces. I swear, a bigger dressing down I have never received in my life.

I managed to salvage the situation with some judicious use of ice cream.

Phew.

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

I made the mistake of calling the show 'Peppermint Pig' to one of my nieces. I swear, a bigger dressing down I have never received in my life.

I managed to salvage the situation with some judicious use of ice cream.

Phew.

Who dressed you down? The niece? If so she's a humourless little wagon. Most kids I know would be rolling round the floor laughing at the big dumb adult.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

People could never afford them they just had them anyway and kids shared rooms and didn’t go on holidays and ate simple food etc.

And if you wanted something as a teenager you got a job and earned the money for it yourself.

One eyed Jack

markodaly wrote: »

I have lived a very hedonistic self-indulgent life before my own kids were born. Sure in your 20's and 30's kids are the last thing on your mind, but all the travelling, sex, drink, drugs, the partying wears thin after a while. You begin to realise is that it? Is this me for the next 50 years until I **** myself in a old folks home and die?

I suppose one becomes ready to move on from the self-indulgent lifestyle and start something else, something harder but ultimately much much more rewarding than a night on the beer, or a line of coke.

Seeing your own child for the first time after it being born is something indescribable, that cannot be put into words. You realise that you are part of something much bigger than yourself and that in an age of the self, having kids is one of the last vestiges of true sacrifice.

Having children was something that was at the forefront of my mind from a very early age, not something that just happened as though I’d an epiphany in my 30’s, and at the same time I enjoyed plenty of self-indulgence, still do, because having children for me was only one aspect of what I wanted from life. It wasn’t this higher purpose or realising I’m part of something much bigger than myself (I realised that long before I hit my 20’s even, in school, when I learned about history, geography and science).

That is perhaps why seeing my own child for the first time after it being born is something that contrary to your opinion, is easily described, for me at least. They looked like the offspring of a cross between a character from the Simpsons, and a Klingon - with a deeply furrowed brow and yellow skin. When the nurse in the delivery room asked me did I want to hold him, and presented me with a baby who was still covered in blood, I thought she must be kidding, I’m wearing a white shirt!

Put simply, there was no big epiphany, no realising I’d just contributed to climate change, no thinking that I had now made some “true sacrifice” or any of the rest of what I would consider to be self-indulgent navel-gazing nonsense on your part. My thinking on having children has always been based upon more practical concerns and pragmatism than some philosophical ideas about my own significance in the universe and evolution and all the rest of it.

If the pinnacle of your life’s achievements is something that humans have been doing for millions of years already, I would question how you evaluate the idea of life achievement and fulfilment.

markodaly wrote: »

Perhaps, but for many, it rings true. Sure, there are people out there who devote their lives to a cause or a vocation bigger than themselves but they are rare.
Many childless couples I know just want to live a good life, with cruises, nights out, and pay for expensive experiences. Whatever floats their boat but is that all is there to life? A front row seat to see the Rolling Stones? I doubt it.

I know many older people who didn't have kids and have rich fulfilled lives.
I also know more older people who didn't have kids, who end up really lonely and depressed.

It's a mixed bag really. I do not know one single person who hates or regrets having kids, even though it may have been a slow burn for them.

Again, whatever floats one's boat, but people sure get defensive about the issue, to the point they come across as insecure.

I would question how secure you are in your own life choices that you don’t appear to be able to appreciate the concept that other people evaluate the sum of their life’s achievements and what they want from their lives differently from how you evaluate the sum of one’s life achievements and fulfilment. It’s not being defensive to point out that they don’t evaluate their lives in the same way you think they should evaluate their lives. Put simply - they just don’t share your perspective, they have their own perspective on what they consider an achievement of what fulfils them.

I still have plenty of nights out, nice things, and I place more value in working to be able to provide those things for my child too. I would have liked to have more children, but it just didn’t happen, and that’s ok. It’s not like I ever considered the sole purpose of my existence was to reproduce anyway, so it’s not something I dwell on. I have plenty more in my life to fulfil me than just thinking having reproduced means “my work here is done”. There’s far more to life than just having children or raising children. That’s something humans have been doing for millions of years already. I would evaluate achievement as something that hasn’t been done by humans before, or something that’s actually difficult to do, that requires decades of dedication, education and discipline to be regarded as an elite in their chosen field of sports, or an authority in their chosen field of education or employment.

Whether they have children or not isn’t something I consider worthy of evaluation in terms of what a person has actually achieved in their lifetime or their contribution to society. If ever proof positive was needed that having and raising children is something any idiot can do, well... you’re welcome :pac:

Gimme A Pound

Deleted User wrote: »

Who dressed you down? The niece? If so she's a humourless little wagon.

She's a small child whose social skills haven't fully developed yet. And it's hardly an *actual* dressing down.

Must you really refer to another poster's niece in that manner? A wagon?!

Also it's totally standard for small children to correct adults over things that are a big deal to them - my nieces gave out to me for saying unicorns aren't real... and THAT'S what's funny. Only a humourless adult would take it so seriously. And you haven't a clue how other children you know would react.

Haha..I had my niece showing me videos on youtube to prove unicorns were real..

Thelonious Monk

Humourless little wagon made me laugh though

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Humourless little wagon made me laugh though

Well she can't have been that humourless then, can she?

:pac:

Tony EH

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

She's a small child whose social skills haven't fully developed yet. And it's hardly an *actual* dressing down.

Must you really refer to another poster's niece in that manner? A wagon?!

Also it's totally standard for small children to correct adults over things that are a big deal to them - my nieces gave out to me for saying unicorns aren't real... and THAT'S what's funny. Only a humourless adult would take it so seriously. And you haven't a clue how other children you know would react.

She's 3 and Peppermint Peppa Pig is her thing.

Of course it wasn't a dressing down like you'd get from a Sergeant Major or anything.

But it was close.

I'm still recovering.

#prayfortony

Gimme A Pound

Yeah Peppa Pig's audience tends to be between 0 and 4 tops.

Imagine calling a child of that age a wagon, for behaving that age...

anewme

Tony EH wrote: »

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

She's a small child whose social skills haven't fully developed yet. And it's hardly an *actual* dressing down.

Must you really refer to another poster's niece in that manner? A wagon?!

Also it's totally standard for small children to correct adults over things that are a big deal to them - my nieces gave out to me for saying unicorns aren't real... and THAT'S what's funny. Only a humourless adult would take it so seriously. And you haven't a clue how other children you know would react.

She's 3 and Peppermint Peppa Pig is her thing.

Of course it wasn't a dressing down like you'd get from a Sergeant Major or anything.

But it was close.

I'm still recovering.

#prayfortony

Well, have to say Tony, I'm totally with your niece here.

Ive neither chick nor child and even I know who Peppa Pig is.

What kind of eejit call her Peppermint Pig?

Tony EH

anewme wrote: »

Well, have to say Tony, I'm totally with your niece here.

Ive neither chick nor child and even I know who Peppa Pig is.

What kind of eejit call her Peppermint Pig?

I guess I'm just a terrible old man.

Gimme A Pound

ToddyDoody wrote: »

How many of The Simpsons characters are unmarried? Plenty.

Yeah none are portrayed in a positive light. :pac:

Moe, Barney, Lenny, Carl, Patti, Selma... still funny though.

markodaly

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Put simply, there was no big epiphany, no realising I’d just contributed to climate change, no thinking that I had now made some “true sacrifice” or any of the rest of what I would consider to be self-indulgent navel-gazing nonsense on your part. My thinking on having children has always been based upon more practical concerns and pragmatism than some philosophical ideas about my own significance in the universe and evolution and all the rest of it.

Pot calling the kettle black there my friend. Do you think I am the only one navel-gazing in this thread? Ha, perhaps re read that bit I highlighted.

If the pinnacle of your life’s achievements is something that humans have been doing for millions of years already, I would question how you evaluate the idea of life achievement and fulfilment.

I never said this in fairness, so you can stop putting words in my mouth for starters if you are going to be having a polite conversation. Otherwise, you are just making **** up about me.

My point being is that people who remain childless by choice are really not living some unique life full of purpose and self-sacrifice making the world a better place by devoting their time, not looking after own kids but curing cancer or some other such fantasy.

In essence, they are just living their own life, as they see fit but is as mundane as the rest of us, which by modern standards is usually self-indulgent brought about by privilege by living in a western country in 2019. Again, whatever floats one boat.

It's a free country after all, but let's not pretend one's choice of remaining childless voluntary is really the summit of human desire or that they are really achieving these amazing things that will change the world while the rest of us are raising our kids. Let's call a spade a spade here.

I would question how secure you are in your own life choices that you don’t appear to be able to appreciate the concept that other people evaluate the sum of their life’s achievements and what they want from their lives differently from how you evaluate the sum of one’s life achievements and fulfilment. It’s not being defensive to point out that they don’t evaluate their lives in the same way you think they should evaluate their lives. Put simply - they just don’t share your perspective, they have their own perspective on what they consider an achievement of what fulfils them.

Which is fine, in of itself. But the proof is really in the pudding. As I said, childless people die younger and from my own experience people who do not marry or form stable long term relationships generally are miserable and depressed when older. I know plenty of friends and family who in their 50's,60's and beyond who are utterly depressed with their lives and a common denominator is that they are single and to an extent by default don't have kids. (this is not a comment on being childless by the way, its more an observation on people who have difficulty forming permanent stable loving relationships for whatever reason). The two can go hand in hand. Again the science backs me up here on this point as well. I also know people who are a couple and have no kids and are happy out.

I still have plenty of nights out, nice things, and I place more value in working to be able to provide those things for my child too. I would have liked to have more children, but it just didn’t happen, and that’s ok. It’s not like I ever considered the sole purpose of my existence was to reproduce anyway, so it’s not something I dwell on. I have plenty more in my life to fulfil me than just thinking having reproduced means “my work here is done”. There’s far more to life than just having children or raising children. That’s something humans have been doing for millions of years already. I would evaluate achievement as something that hasn’t been done by humans before, or something that’s actually difficult to do, that requires decades of dedication, education and discipline to be regarded as an elite in their chosen field of sports, or an authority in their chosen field of education or employment.

Again, I never stated that either. Just because you have kids you can still go out and enjoy life and do your own thing. With me, however, I am lucky that I share my of my own enjoyments with my kids. They like to travel, as do I. Bringing the kids to Africa was, without doubt, one of the best experience I have ever had, and for them as a learning experience about the world about them, the environment, the people and the challenges the continent faces, I hope will enrich them and leave them to take pause and try and maybe try and leave the world a better place for their own kids.

As to your last bolded point, if you are being fair, how many people, actually achieve that? Or is the bar set for parents with kids, while DINKY's get off scot-free, while they spend their free cash on frivolous nonsense and investment properties? You do know that the future generation will be the taxpayers paying for our public services?

I can agree with your point perhaps but you raise it in a curious manner.

Whether they have children or not isn’t something I consider worthy of evaluation in terms of what a person has actually achieved in their lifetime or their contribution to society. If ever proof positive was needed that having and raising children is something any idiot can do, well... you’re welcome :pac:

Any idiot can pop out a kid, but it takes someone else to turn out a conscientious, mature, well rounded, confident individual who takes on the challenges of the world around them. If you think any idiot can do that, well good luck to you.

markodaly

Sebastian Low Zenith wrote: »

Childless people die younger because they take more risks and/or are less likely to look after themselves for the sake of their children. On average! It's the same for men, less likely to see a doctor if single. Again, average. To imply that children magically make all parents live longer is wrong

I suppose it the self-worth factor really.

People can spout on about stuff for all they want but the science is clear on this.
If you have kids, you will live longer.
If you are in a stable relationship, you will live longer.

It's like winning the lottery. Many daydream about it, jacking in the job and living the life they truly want to live, only to find out they have no idea how to live that life or be 'happy'.
About a third of lottery winners go bankrupt and many regret the winnings.

We live behind a veneer of doing exciting unique things where we are all individuals and different, yet we are just clumps of cells at the end of the day, programmed in a certain.

Some here would have experienced losing a job, and having all this unexpected free time to do all this other stuff they always planned to do but never got around to doing because life was getting in the way. However, with all this free time, people end up miserable and depressed. In times of high unemployment suicide skyrockets and for good reason. People miss the routine and a simple purpose. People may scoff and scorn at this, and think that they are somehow different, but generally, they are full of **** and in denial.

Maybe getting off the point but I think it warrants attention.

gctest50

Tony EH wrote: »

I made the mistake of calling the show 'Peppermint Pig' to one of my nieces. I swear, a bigger dressing down I have never received in my life.

I managed to salvage the situation with some judicious use of ice cream.

Phew.

You should have got her the jigsaw puzzle instead

Fourier

We live behind a veneer of doing exciting unique things where we are all individuals and different, yet we are just clumps of cells at the end of the day, programmed in a certain

Wait a second. If saying "emotion X often involves more of chemical Y" is nihilistic, is this not just as nihilistic. In fact I'd have though it was way more nihilistic. It's super reductive and not even scientifically accurate.

Also this "we are programmed" is not really how we work. What happens is that mutations produce people inclined to act different ways, but our behaviour isn't strictly controlled enough and develops too much to be called programming or anything remotely like it.

It's interesting how we've gotten strange reductive statements on both sides from the posters most disparaging of the other side.

Different people like different things. That's all there is to it, we don't have to get into breaking things down to an atomic level to expose the emptiness of "the other side".

ILoveYourVibes

Its not that common. I don't know of anyone over lets say 60 never been married etc.

kowloon

markodaly wrote: »

What's the saying?

"Knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing."

If one boils down life to mere atoms and chemical reactions in the brain, it says more about that person's own nihilistic outlook than anyone else.

Again, as I said, people sure get insecure about this topic.

Meh, maybe we search for meaning where there is none. Maybe all life that evolves to a point where it searches for meaning finds nothing. And maybe that's why we've never met, heard from or in any way detected advanced alien life.

Dial Hard

Thelonious Monk wrote:

Expectations

And education. Probably the single most influential factor.

One eyed Jack

markodaly wrote: »

Pot calling the kettle black there my friend. Do you think I am the only one navel-gazing in this thread? Ha, perhaps re read that bit I highlighted.

I think you may have misread the point I was making in relation to your point about how having a child makes you realise you’re part of something bigger than yourself and that in the age of the self, having children is one of the last vestiges of true sacrifice. I’m not putting words in your mouth, I’m making the point that for me there was none of that nonsense. That’s not because I live in the age of the self where having a child is one of the last vestiges of true sacrifice.

It’s because I live in a world where having a child is not the exceptional and life altering experience you appear to want to make it out to be as though you actually have made some great sacrifice for humanity and you deserve credit for it.

markodaly wrote: »

I never said this in fairness, so you can stop putting words in my mouth for starters if you are going to be having a polite conversation. Otherwise, you are just making **** up about me.

My point being is that people who remain childless by choice are really not living some unique life full of purpose and self-sacrifice making the world a better place by devoting their time, not looking after own kids but curing cancer or some other such fantasy.

In essence, they are just living their own life, as they see fit but is as mundane as the rest of us, which by modern standards is usually self-indulgent brought about by privilege by living in a western country in 2019. Again, whatever floats one boat.

It's a free country after all, but let's not pretend one's choice of remaining childless voluntary is really the summit of human desire or that they are really achieving these amazing things that will change the world while the rest of us are raising our kids. Let's call a spade a spade here.

I’m all for having a polite conversation about the topic, but what you appear to be doing is making shìt up about other people and pretending your opinion should be regarded as authoritative source on the topic because what, you can draw correlations from statistical data to suit your particular point of view? There’s nothing scientific in your methodology whatsoever. You can’t just pull figures from wherever you like and expect that other people should regard them the same way you do.

I don’t care as I said whether other people do or don’t have children or what they have chosen to do with their lives. I’m not the person who’s pretending though that either reproducing or raising children should be regarded in the same ball park as scientists who have spent decades studying human reproduction for example and have actually contributed to the body of human knowledge. There is no specific prerequisite knowledge or experience required for reproduction or raising children. That’s why I suggested that it’s literally something any idiot can do.

You keep saying whatever floats ones boat, but can you understand why someone would be a bit skeptical of your claims of indifference to other people’s life choices which don’t align with yours, when you appear to be going out of your way to devalue their achievements, and place a higher value on your own ‘achievement’ of having reproduced and raised a child? You’re setting the bar for what is considered an achievement so low that if anyone were to take it seriously, we’d be handing out participation medals to everyone for their contribution to society.

markodaly wrote: »

Which is fine, in of itself. But the proof is really in the pudding. As I said, childless people die younger and from my own experience people who do not marry or form stable long term relationships generally are miserable and depressed when older. I know plenty of friends and family who in their 50's,60's and beyond who are utterly depressed with their lives and a common denominator is that they are single and to an extent by default don't have kids. (this is not a comment on being childless by the way, its more an observation on people who have difficulty forming permanent stable loving relationships for whatever reason). The two can go hand in hand. Again the science backs me up here on this point as well. I also know people who are a couple and have no kids and are happy out.

Science in and of itself doesn’t back up anything. What you have there are correlations drawn from statistics, something which again, and I’m reluctant to repeat myself, but it’s something any idiot can do - literally spotting patterns in data. Some people are better at it than others, but most people are certainly capable of it. Again it’s no special achievement, and it’s certainly not science. It’s pattern recognition. You were doing it before you even realised you could. I don’t even know what you mean by “a common denominator is that they are single and to an extent by default don’t have kids”. You’re literally seeing only what you want to see, which is why you’ve identified the common denominator(s) among the people you know who are utterly miserable as being single with no children.

To be fair to you, I should state that I’m aware of plenty of the studies you refer to, but unfortunately much of what passes review for publication in the social sciences these days is motivated by political bias as opposed to any scientific methodology being employed in collecting and collating data, much less reviewing said data. In short - I’d take much of those studies with the same regard I’d give to reading fifty shades of grey and thinking there was any scientific merit in it.

It’s comforting to think one’s individual world views are shared by the majority, and that works if the data you’re working with is limited to perspectives which back up your own ideas, but let’s not pretend there’s anything scientific in what you’re doing.

markodaly wrote: »

Again, I never stated that either. Just because you have kids you can still go out and enjoy life and do your own thing. With me, however, I am lucky that I share my of my own enjoyments with my kids. They like to travel, as do I. Bringing the kids to Africa was, without doubt, one of the best experience I have ever had, and for them as a learning experience about the world about them, the environment, the people and the challenges the continent faces, I hope will enrich them and leave them to take pause and try and maybe try and leave the world a better place for their own kids.

As to your last bolded point, if you are being fair, how many people, actually achieve that? Or is the bar set for parents with kids, while DINKY's get off scot-free, while they spend their free cash on frivolous nonsense and investment properties? You do know that the future generation will be the taxpayers paying for our public services?

I can agree with your point perhaps but you raise it in a curious manner.

I think I’m being very fair in pointing out the fact that many people don’t achieve elite level status in their chosen field, which is what makes it an achievement for the small number of people who do! Because almost every human being on the planet has at least the capacity and the capability to reproduce and raise children, that’s why I suggested you were elevating something ordinary to rubber medal levels of what should be considered an achievement. It’s not me is setting the bar for “is this all there is to life?” so low at all, but rather yourself is setting the bar so low that the ordinary should be regarded as something extraordinary or a feat of great sacrifice, or “true sacrifice” as you put it.

To be perfectly honest with you, I didn’t choose to have children so they would become taxpayers and pay for our public services. I’d be royally screwed if I thought like that because I’m aware that someone else is raising future generations of politicians to ensure that future generations are just as royally screwed as many people are today. No, I chose to have children for purely selfish reasons, and for one reason only - because I always wanted to have a big family with plenty of children. I was prepared to settle for six. My wife at the time had other ideas by the time we’d had our first child :pac:

That’s why I couldn’t relate to your ideas of it being indescribable when you see your child for the first time and how you realised then that you were part of something bigger than yourself. If having a child was what it took to make you realise you were a member of society, I can see why you’d have had an epiphany when you had a child. Up until then you really were only thinking of yourself. There’s nothing wrong with that, but let’s not pretend you made any true sacrifice or that your life choices are any more significant than anyone else’s, particularly when you haven’t actually achieved anything exceptional solely by virtue of reproducing and raising a child or children.

Come back when, I dunno, you’ve managed to do something that would generally be considered extraordinary, like becoming an elite athlete, or becoming an authority in an academic discipline or field of employment, and then we’ll talk about what it actually took to achieve such status. Reproducing and raising a child? Im afraid there’s nobody handing out rubber medals for what is simply a consequence of biological mechanics and intuition.

markodaly wrote: »

Any idiot can pop out a kid, but it takes someone else to turn out a conscientious, mature, well rounded, confident individual who takes on the challenges of the world around them. If you think any idiot can do that, well good luck to you.

Thank you, genuinely. I’ve been winging it so far on a wing and a prayer and my child appears to have turned out alright, so far (although I did LOL when he asked an iPhone 8 for his birthday, that’s not something I instilled in him!). I’ve said it before though and I’ll say it again, I expected that he would hate me by the time he was a teenager, and I was prepared for that. As it turns out, he doesn’t... I’m still not sure where I went wrong* :pac:



*I do acknowledge of course that while I am his primary influence, he is also influenced by many more people in his life than just me. It would take an ego the height of QE2 on my part to imagine how my child turns out as an adult would be solely down to just my influence alone. He’d have been more likely to turn out an obnoxious self-indulgent little prick had it not been for the influences of many other people in his life, many of them who have no children themselves, but that doesn’t preclude them from being great role models for my child.

anewme

It’s very ignorant to imply that people who don’t want children lead self indulgent hedonistic lifestyles.

1874

whisky_galore wrote: »

Yeah, dealing with shîtty nappies and tantrums makes life complete. Each to their own.

Its not all ****ty nappies, eventually they grow out of that, in some ways, I could have happily never had a child, it wasnt really my idea, I went along with it, that said, I could never go back, children can warm your heart with their innocence and when you see the look on their face or hear it in their words, when they discover something new, an idea, a thing.
It gives meaning to me, but I dont think it should be the be all and end all.



To add to that, I cannot understand why some parents jam it down other peoples throats if someone doesnt have kids, I guess thats people, we can cling to things for meaning and when someone has less other real things to go on, I think that exacerbates it. But its not all parents.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well it's bad programming if you ask me because there are far too many of us. Plus the programming didn't work for all of us I've no desire to be anywhere near any children!

That would seem to suggest to me that the programming is actually working,

anewme wrote: »

It’s very ignorant to imply that people who don’t want children lead self indulgent hedonistic lifestyles.

Thats probably the norm, unfortunately, well at least I dont have to be jealous anymore, hope they crash their Porsche, ba$tards, I had to spend it all on nappies, and food dammit!

Fourier

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Come back when, I dunno, you’ve managed to do something that would generally be considered extraordinary, like becoming an elite athlete, or becoming an authority in an academic discipline or field of employment, and then we’ll talk about what it actually took to achieve such status.

This more in addition to your post, not to contradict it.

As somebody who is an authority in an academic discipline, I don't think I could have done it without very supportive and understanding parents. Virtually anybody successful in my field often mentions their parents as a big part of their achievements in book dedications or in private conversation.

Of course that is not to say the person themselves must have children. I know several who chose not to have kids or marry to focus on research, however they all mention they were the product of good parenting.

One even said to me that a good academic is three generations in the making (John Adams said something similar I think)

Fourier

Fourier wrote: »

This more in addition to your post, not to contradict it.

As somebody who is an authority in an academic discipline, I don't think I could have done it without very supportive and understanding parents. Virtually anybody successful in my field often mentions their parents as a big part of their achievements in book dedications or in private conversation.

Of course that is not to say the person themselves must have children. I know several who chose not to have kids or marry to focus on research, however they all mention they were the product of good parenting.

One even said to me that a good academic is three generations in the making (John Adams said something similar I think)

well i mean

its an exceptional person indeed achieves anything without having had parents tbf

Fourier

Deleted User wrote: »

well i mean

its an exceptional person indeed achieves anything without having had parents tbf

My point was the quality of the parenting not the fact of it.

kowloon

Sebastian Low Zenith wrote: »

Childless people die younger because they take more risks and/or are less likely to look after themselves for the sake of their children. On average! It's the same for men, less likely to see a doctor if single. Again, average. To imply that children magically make all parents live longer is wrong

I'd say people who are unhealthy for whatever reason are less likely to get into relationships or have children in the first place. In these cases it's not the lack of children that caused the reduction in lifespan but the health issues that reduced the opportunity or desire to have the partners and children.

Pwindedd

I was very young and thought I was in love when I had my daughter. I’m so glad I had her. But I knew very early on that she would be my first and last child. Kids are hard work and I’m not a natural mother. She’s turned out to be a cracker. The achievement I’m most proud of in my life. But it was 50% hard work and 50% sheer dumb luck. If you don’t want kids then you go live life to the full. If you do then I hope you get to fulfill your dream. But either way it’s your choice and It really doesn’t need to be yes vs. no debate. You Don’t need to have your own children to be a positive influence in a child’s life.

ToddyDoody

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

Yeah none are portrayed in a positive light. :pac:

Moe, Barney, Lenny, Carl, Patti, Selma... still funny though.

Are the married ones portrayed in a better light?