How common is it for people to never find an other half or have kids?

Potential-Monke

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Nobody is going to admit they regret having kids, even if you did, you would be treated as a monster.

There are loads of people miserable because of their kids or having to stay in awful relationships, the idea that only childless people have regret about their choices is very naive.

This. Exactly this. The ones who have admitted to me they regret having kids would never even contemplate saying that to another parent. As my friend put it, there's an expectation out there from other parents that your life is wonderful and full of joy, even after all the negatives that come with it. He said he did admit it once to another parent, who then went on to give him the big speech that children are everything (similar to the people commenting on this that this is what we are all alive for, our 'purpose').

As Wibbs said, there's also a lot of resentment which parents don't admit. My mate loves when I attend gatherings, as I'm the one who straight out says I don't like them, and that's when parents start to get 'truthful' about their experiences. Most will still be happy with having kids, but start to see why some people may have regrets/resentment. You'd be surprised how many people at least think this way but haven't completely got to the believing it stage.

Edit: I should add, it's ok to feel resentment and regret about having kids, but it's your actions after this which count.

markodaly

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Nobody is going to admit they regret having kids, even if you did, you would be treated as a monster.

There are loads of people miserable because of their kids or having to stay in awful relationships, the idea that only childless people have regret about their choices is very naive.

My answer to that would be that its a reflection of the people themselves, not the fact they had kids.
Sure, people with kids can have issues. Having children is not a silver bullet to all life's ills but the people I know with kids who are miserable have much more deep-seated issues themselves which they cover up with substance abuse, normally drink.

markodaly

Wibbs wrote: »

I have met a few M. Not hate, too strong a word, but some with resentment alright. More women in that group, probably because they had to give up more. While others all men, because it's easier for them to do so, who left early on. A few have zero contact with their kids and apparently don't care, others are part time parents, play with the kid for a few hours and hand them back type of thing. Others who are workaholics and barely see their kids at the weekend(with a couple who wouldn't be pushed if that contact was even shorter) While sometimes it's the women who leave, it's rarer, but there are enough kids out there who've grown up without fathers because they sodded off soon after they popped out.

Men who leave relationships early on are an embarrassment in my opinion and I say this as someone whose father left his family up **** creek. I wont go into details

These are the exact same men who would have gotten someone up the duff in 1930s Ireland and ****ed off to England on the boat while the woman was incarcerated for 'her sins' instead of actually being responsible for his actions.
Whatever about the rest of the topic, these 'men' should be rightly called out.
There are plenty of assholes out there in the world.

markodaly

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Edit: I should add, it's ok to feel resentment and regret about having kids, but it's your actions after this which count.

Put it this way, is it OK to say the same once you got married and stayed in that relationship. I wonder what your partner would have to say if you admitted that you resented them for getting married. Im sure they would be fine with it.

I suppose the above quote is a nice encapsulation of modern life. We want is 'all' but the truth is right under our noses. We cannot have it all, no matter how many Instagram stories or commercials you watch.

Again, whatever floats one's boat but ill repeat, people sure get defensive about this question.

Fourier

markodaly wrote: »

If one boils down life to mere atoms and chemical reactions in the brain, it says more about that person's own nihilistic outlook than anyone else.

It's not really that nihilistic. The brain uses different ratios of chemicals when performing different types of thoughts. Just like how the muscles use different ratios of chemicals when performing different activities.

Yeah somebody might go overboard and think it means "love" etc don't exist. Which is about as sensible as saying that "running" doesn't exist because your body burns more glucagon to perform it.

However if you're being sensible it's just a statement about how the brain works. Even being coldly rational involves a flood of different chemicals, so it's not like it picks out anything in particular.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I dunno Mark, the type of parents who drone on about how transformative parenthood is and how empty and self indulgent their life was before and how no good person ever regretted having kids have a smack of the pre-emptively defensive about them to my eyes, very much comes across as an attempt as self-persuasion rather than trying to convince others. As plenty parents and non-parents are saying here, people fully comfortable with their choices tend not to have to put those of others down.

JDD

markodaly wrote: »

My answer to that would be that its a reflection of the people themselves, not the fact they had kids.
Sure, people with kids can have issues. Having children is not a silver bullet to all life's ills but the people I know with kids who are miserable have much more deep-seated issues themselves which they cover up with substance abuse, normally drink.

I'm not sure that's right.

I have a friend, two young teenage kids, who was insecure about her looks when younger and I guess hankered after the "normal life" of a husband, family, house, car etc. She married earlyish to a guy that she wasn't suited to and had twins about a year. Now, as an older, wiser and more confident person she is in the process of extracting herself from her marriage. She has said to me on more than one occasion that while she loves her children, and obviously wouldn't wish them away now, if she had her life over again she'd prefer to choose not to have them - I guess she missed out on a lot in life up to now and there's a sense of her own mortality and how much she hasn't experienced.

She's not a bad person. She's a good mother but is afraid that the fact that regrets having children shows though in her interactions with them. She said that she's been pretending for so long that she's happy with her lot that it's second nature to her and they probably don't notice anything.

Its sad really. So many go down the marriage + kids + house route because they are insecure and its what society deems as the norm, or even preferable, when it wasn't the right route for them at all. And this rhetoric of "I've never met someone who regrets having children" is very unhelpful, because there is clearly - outside of outright abusive parents - some good people who are fairly rubbish parents. It's terrible advice for people to go off and have a child because they believe it will deliver some meaning or purpose in their life, or fill some kind of hole, when it absolutely won't.

markodaly

Talia Late Crosswalk wrote: »

I dunno Mark, the type of parents who drone on about how transformative parenthood is and how empty and self indulgent their life was before and how no good person ever regretted having kids have a smack of the pre-emptively defensive about them to my eyes, very much comes across as an attempt as self-persuasion rather than trying to convince others. As plenty parents and non-parents are saying here, people fully comfortable with their choices tend not to have to put those of others down.

I am not trying to put down anyone else tbh. I repeatedly stated people are free to live whatever lives they want, that does not mean I cannot have an opinion about it as well in fairness.

For daring to question peoples life choices, people circle the wagon's and start shouting in unison that they are 'TRUELY HAPPY!!!, REALLY!!' OK, fine.

As I will repeat, people are just insecure about their life choices that they have to defend them so vigorously.

Talia Late Crosswalk

Talia Late Crosswalk wrote: »

I dunno Mark, the type of parents who drone on about how transformative parenthood is and how empty and self indulgent their life was before and how no good person ever regretted having kids have a smack of the pre-emptively defensive about them to my eyes, very much comes across as an attempt as self-persuasion rather than trying to convince others. As plenty parents and non-parents are saying here, people fully comfortable with their choices tend not to have to put those of others down.

I don't imagine I'm the only parent here whose child (or in some cases, children) was accidental. People talk about accidental babies as if they are some kind of epiphany, when actually, there's a big shock factor, and after the initial euphoria, there's a certain amount of mourning involved for being hurried out of a lifestyle that you were quite enjoying, thanks very much.

At least, there would be mourning if we weren't walking around, semi-conscious, knee-deep in bodily fluids and Peppa Pig paraphernalia.

Having kids is great, but it's bloody hard work. While I certainly don't think many people regret their kids, we certainly do sit around thinking "what if?" and imagining a life without children in the way that some people probably idealize a life with children.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

markodaly wrote: »

I am not trying to put down anyone else tbh. I repeatedly stated people are free to live whatever lives they want, that does not mean I cannot have an opinion about it as well in fairness.

For daring to question peoples life choices, people circle the wagon's and start shouting in unison that they are 'TRUELY HAPPY!!!, REALLY!!' OK, fine.

As I will repeat, people are just insecure about their life choices that they have to defend them so vigorously.

Maybe it was just your phrasing in your first post, it seemed like you were making general value judgements on parenthood and the choice not to have children rather than just talking about your own personal experience of living a self indulgent, seemingly rather intoxicated life and then understandably getting sick of that, and finding a transformative meaningfulness in parenthood. Having an opinion on someone's choices isn't mutually exclusive from putting those choices down, you know.

I think we've all read and understood your point that you think defensiveness from childfree people indicates insecurity in their choice, you've ended every post with it and it's not that complex a thing to grasp.

My point is this "my life is harder and more meaningful than it was before and than yours is now, an act of selflessness in the age of the self, I'm fulfilling man's purpose on earth" doesn't come across the most secure either. And it's not even defensive, it's just out of nowhere. And it's not a parent thing, most of them posting here seem to be pretty chill.

markodaly

JDD wrote: »

I'm not sure that's right.

I have a friend, two young teenage kids, who was insecure about her looks when younger and I guess hankered after the "normal life" of a husband, family, house, car etc. She married earlyish to a guy that she wasn't suited to and had twins about a year. Now, as an older, wiser and more confident person she is in the process of extracting herself from her marriage. She has said to me on more than one occasion that while she loves her children, and obviously wouldn't wish them away now, if she had her life over again she'd prefer to choose not to have them - I guess she missed out on a lot in life up to now and there's a sense of her own mortality and how much she hasn't experienced.

It kinda proves my point in a way.
She loves her kids and gets self-worth from them.

Its sad really. So many go down the marriage + kids + house route because they are insecure and its what society deems as the norm, or even preferable, when it wasn't the right route for them at all. And this rhetoric of "I've never met someone who regrets having children" is very unhelpful, because there is clearly - outside of outright abusive parents - some good people who are fairly rubbish parents. It's terrible advice for people to go off and have a child because they believe it will deliver some meaning or purpose in their life, or fill some kind of hole, when it absolutely won't.

Abusive parents are one thing but again, people like that have issues themselves, to begin with. People are conflating the two issues.

Society deems it the norm because it is the norm. We are programmed biologically that way and we have about 4 million years of evolution to back it up. Science proves that childless people die younger for example.
Our entire human society is based around the family. People cannot see the wood from the trees on this issue and conflate various and different issues.

Maybe people just get uneasy that after all their yoga, pilates and drinking soya lates they are merely biological beings programmed to act a certain way. It makes them uneasy that they are not the free-thinking, free-spirited individual they think they are under the veneer.

Fourier

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Peppa Pig paraphernalia.

You blaspheme against the great toddler god?

Ave Sodalis

markodaly wrote: »

I am not trying to put down anyone else tbh.

See, you say this, and then refer to people who choose not to have children in the most patronizing way possible.

jam_mac_jam

markodaly wrote: »

I am not trying to put down anyone else tbh. I repeatedly stated people are free to live whatever lives they want, that does not mean I cannot have an opinion about it as well in fairness.

For daring to question peoples life choices, people circle the wagon's and start shouting in unison that they are 'TRUELY HAPPY!!!, REALLY!!' OK, fine.

As I will repeat, people are just insecure about their life choices that they have to defend them so vigorously.

Why do they have to defend their choices at all?

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

I am not trying to put down anyone else tbh. I repeatedly stated people are free to live whatever lives they want, that does not mean I cannot have an opinion about it as well in fairness.

For daring to question peoples life choices, people circle the wagon's and start shouting in unison that they are 'TRUELY HAPPY!!!, REALLY!!' OK, fine.

As I will repeat, people are just insecure about their life choices that they have to defend them so vigorously.

your projected defensiveness from people who are telling you that they are grand thanks clashes badly with your continued insistence that they cannot be and that you have a right to your opinion on it mannnnn

Wanderer2010

markodaly wrote: »

It kinda proves my point in a way.
She loves her kids and gets self-worth from them.



Abusive parents are one thing but again, people like that have issues themselves, to begin with. People are conflating the two issues.

Society deems it the norm because it is the norm. We are programmed biologically that way and we have about 4 million years of evolution to back it up. Science proves that childless people die younger for example.
Our entire human society is based around the family. People cannot see the wood from the trees on this issue and conflate various and different issues.

Maybe people just get uneasy that after all their yoga, pilates and drinking soya lates they are merely biological beings programmed to act a certain way. It makes them uneasy that they are not the free-thinking, free-spirited individual they think they are under the veneer.

Im not sure if there is intent or not but your post reads like a dripping attack in the most patronising manner possible on people who choose not to have kids. Can you get your head around the fact that some people don't want kids or a family, and are happy with a core group of friends, or is that concept totally bizarre to you? Im just genuinely curious.

You probably only realise in hindsight..

Blaizes

To be fair not having kids is probably a fairly new idea to Ireland. We haven’t actually had contraception that long ( 30 or 40 years maybe) so we were a country of big families. Now times have changed though and people have more choice.

We’ve probably gone in reverse mode though as having children now is so expensive that people just cant afford it even if they want to have children. And that isn’t right either.

Thelonious Monk

Blaizes wrote: »

To be fair not having kids is probably a fairly new idea to Ireland. We haven’t actually had contraception that long ( 30 or 40 years maybe) so we were a country of big families. Now times have changed though and people have more choice.

We’ve probably gone in reverse mode though as having children now is so expensive that people just cant afford it even if they want to have children. And that isn’t right either.

People could never afford them they just had them anyway and kids shared rooms and didn’t go on holidays and ate simple food etc.

Blaizes

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Blaizes wrote: »

To be fair not having kids is probably a fairly new idea to Ireland. We haven’t actually had contraception that long ( 30 or 40 years maybe) so we were a country of big families. Now times have changed though and people have more choice.

We’ve probably gone in reverse mode though as having children now is so expensive that people just cant afford it even if they want to have children. And that isn’t right either.

People could never afford them they just had them anyway and kids shared rooms and didn’t go on holidays and ate simple food etc.

All true, couldn’t disagree with one word you’ve said, but something has changed from then till now.

Thelonious Monk

Blaizes wrote: »

All true, couldn’t disagree with one word you’ve said, but something has changed from then till now.

Expectations

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Expectations

you say this like theyre a bad thing

but i think theyre great

Paddy Cow

Blaizes wrote: »

All true, couldn’t disagree with one word you’ve said, but something has changed from then till now.

1 Access to contraception and the ability for couples to actually plan how many (if any) children they want.
2 Education and employment opportunities for women. My mother was married at 19 and had 8 children. She would've been happier with 2 kids and a career but that wasn't an option for her and there were many more like her.

I'll take modern life with all it's choice and convenience over some nostalgic past where no one had anything but everyone was happy.

Mr_Spaceman

Tony EH wrote: »

I know a middle aged woman, she's heading to late 40's now. She's always bemoaning the fact that she's single and "can't meet a nice fella".

I stupidly asked her what she was looking for in a man and she came back with a memorised list that took 10 minutes to recite. It was all he has to do this, has to be that, must have this, must look like that...

With that kind of pre-requisite set list, it's no wonder she's alone.

I see this ALL the time with online dating profiles.

It's essentially 'No this' and 'No that', with hardly anything lighthearted and positive to showcase themselves. I wouldn't even think about replying to someone with such a pie-in-the-sky shopping list of demanding guff.

Forget the kids, I suspect this woman might have a long wait for Mr Peter Perfect to unwrap.

I also think it's true (and something which I suspect doesn't get flagged up enough in these debates) that many people - male and female - are keen to have children but never actually get to meet anyone special. That in itself is likely to be quietly crushing and hard to accept.

For single people, it's difficult enough to meet a potential partner before even getting to the point where you both want the same thing (ie, children) at approximately the same time.

d8491prj5boyvg

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Expectations

Preferences I suppose? Better standard of living. I'd say the biggest choice is fewer kids so more money per kid. Seems reasonable, don't want to say to kids no college, can't afford it, for example.

No kids vs kids for better standard of living is a tougher call ultimately as you have to predict that your preferences stay the same for the rest of your life. Not tough if strong opinions either way but I don't envy anyone on the fence there

d8491prj5boyvg

markodaly wrote: »

It kinda proves my point in a way.
She loves her kids and gets self-worth from them.



Abusive parents are one thing but again, people like that have issues themselves, to begin with. People are conflating the two issues.

Society deems it the norm because it is the norm. We are programmed biologically that way and we have about 4 million years of evolution to back it up. Science proves that childless people die younger for example.
Our entire human society is based around the family. People cannot see the wood from the trees on this issue and conflate various and different issues.

Maybe people just get uneasy that after all their yoga, pilates and drinking soya lates they are merely biological beings programmed to act a certain way. It makes them uneasy that they are not the free-thinking, free-spirited individual they think they are under the veneer.

While I wouldn't disagree entirely I think you are misrepresenting the situation a little. We are programmed to procreate to continue the species. That does not mean we all have a strong desire. We have a predisposition and a greater likelihood to be in favor but this will be stronger in some than others. For many this could be just manifest in a desire for sex. For others this could come through weaker or not at all. The point is what you say is the average and there is variation around that. The debate is around those who are at the tail end of the distribution, those with a weak or no desire for which there are many. And when you compare this to what you give up nowadays for kids, it's not the no brainer fight against nature that you suggest. It's a fight against a weak or non existent drive for kids.

Childless people die younger because they take more risks and/or are less likely to look after themselves for the sake of their children. On average! It's the same for men, less likely to see a doctor if single. Again, average. To imply that children magically make all parents live longer is wrong

Always Tired

What do yoga and soy lattes have to do with it?

nuyil simp

Always Tired wrote: »

What do yoga and soy lattes have to do with it?

i don't know, but you'd see people like that saying they wouldn't have kids, because the world is getting too overpopulated as it is...

I mean, in a world of 7.7 Billion people, growing by 100 every 20 seconds, whats two or three more? in a country where the population is less than what it was 150 years ago? thats not going to make much difference.

If you want to have an impact on population growth, get more young girls in india and africa into school, into staying in school... two or three less kids in ireland is going to make **** all difference

d8491prj5boyvg

Blaizes wrote: »

While I would agree with some of your points, I wouldn’t agree that having children is a sacrifice that will pay off later in life in that they will take care of you when you are old. I hope nobody would have children for that reason and certainly in Ireland now when people have kids I think it’s the furthest thing from their mind. But probably was a thing in Ireland in the past like giving the farm to the eldest son who would then look after the parents. In other cultures too female infanticide, as boy babies were seen as superior, being stronger and could provide Labour to support the family.

The family unit was stronger as there were fewer resources. Three generations, if alive, living together or close by. Grandparents helping rear children, middle generation providing most of the food on the table for all, youngest generation helping out when old enough. Strong social bonds. Now it's a transaction with a creche. Grandparents more likely to be independent and living fulfilling lives but at the cost of that stronger bond. I'd still take the modern outcome but don't forget these costs to what we have.

ToddyDoody

How many of The Simpsons characters are unmarried? Plenty.