The glorious 12th

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So, when riots occur in Britain, or among the Loyalist community in the North, the British army can go on a hunting spree, like they did on Bloody Sunday, and you think this would be acceptable?

No? So, the level of threat to the army is very, very relevant.

Btw, I'm still waiting on a response to my earlier posts....

I believe I have answered everything I’ve been asked. Unlike the response I get to most of my questions

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

Wrong yet again, Francie. The police fired rubber bullets in Dorchester in 2002, hitting someone, and last time I looked Dorchester was in Britain.

Correct, my apologies. I should have said they fired 98,503 rubber and plastic bullet rounds up to 1983 in northern Ireland, killing 17 people, 8 of them children and injuring countless more, they fired 1 in Britain, they hit a 'hostage taker' who survived.

Keep defending this stuff with pedantry, it is you who looks immoral.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Correct, my apologies. I should have said they fired 98,503 rubber and plastic bullet rounds up to 1983 in northern Ireland, killing 17 people, 8 of them children and injuring countless more, they fired 1 in Britain, they hit a 'hostage taker' who survived.

Keep defending this stuff with pedantry, it is you who looks immoral.

If you take just one of those killed in Northern Ireland for example, a television cameraman captured a rioter running up behind a security force person and raising a large bar over his head to bring down on the security force person, who turned around just in time to see the rioter attacking him. On impulse, he fired his plastic bullet at close range, and the attacker died. If he had waited a second later, he would have been hit by the bar or plank or whatever the attacker was wielding. That was one of the extremely small % of fatalities out of close to 100.000 fired.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

That was one of the extremely small % of fatalities out of close to 100.000 fired.

Jesus, the moral bankruptcy in that sentence.

I think it is quite clear now what you are about.

careless sherpa

janfebmar wrote: »

If you take just one of those killed in Northern Ireland for example, a television cameraman captured a rioter running up behind a security force person and raising a large bar over his head to bring down on the security force person, who turned around just in time to see the rioter attacking him. On impulse, he fired his plastic bullet at close range, and the attacker died. If he had waited a second later, he would have been hit by the bar or plank or whatever the attacker was wielding. That was one of the extremely small % of fatalities out of close to 100.000 fired.

You are morally repugnant in defending this sort of stuff. The British army has a hideous history of using plastic and rubber bullets in the north in deliberately hitting civilians and causing them permanent and severe disability. You are a disgrace

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus, the moral bankruptcy in that sentence.

You (Davycc) are the one who is morally bankrupt in that you condoned some of the paramilitaries in other threads.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

You (Davycc) are the one who is morally bankrupt in that you condoned some of the paramilitaries in other threads.

I believe it was ALL wrong from the get go.

Nice try in shifting the focus off your pathetic immoral defence.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I believe it was ALL wrong from the get go.

Nice try in shifting the focus off your pathetic immoral defence.

You realise they could not possibly have stopped 10,000 people walking down garvaghy road without plastic bullets. What would you propose they should have done.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You realise they could not possibly have stopped 10,000 people walking down garvaghy road without plastic bullets. What would you propose they should have done.

They managed fine without them here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Toxteth_riots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Brixton_riot

They'll turn the gun on your people if it suits them too downcow, the sad fact is the gun was turned (loaded with real and plastic/rubber bullets) on the nationalist/catholic/ Irish community far and away more often and with more lethal consequences.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They managed fine without them here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Toxteth_riots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Brixton_riot

.

And indeed the population of Toxteth and Brixton did not include large numbers of people who wanted to and did kill large numbers of people. That's the difference Francie, but you probably knew that already.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

And indeed the population of Toxteth and Brixton did not include large numbers of people who wanted to and did kill large numbers of people. That's the difference Francie, but you probably knew that already.

Sure jan...sure. :rolleyes:

Toxteth

In all, the rioting lasted nine days during which 468 police officers were injured, 500 people were arrested, and at least 70 buildings were damaged so severely by fire that they had to be demolished. Around 100 cars were destroyed, and there was extensive looting of shops. Later estimates suggested the numbers of injured police officers and destroyed buildings were at least double those of the official figures

Brixton

That evening, the police lost control of the area for approximately 48 hours. In the subsequent riot, severe injuries were sustained by both sides, with police injured as they were attacked by young black and white youths equipped with bricks and wooden stakes.[1][2] After further skirmishes, the rioters built a defensive wall out of upturned cars across the Brixton Road, which were set alight at various times. From behind this wall, the rioters threw petrol bombs at the police, and looted local shops.[1][2][8] Police later stated that they made 149 arrests that evening, mostly for violence, 20 for burglary and theft and two for petrol bombing.[2]

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sure jan...sure. :rolleyes:

Toxteth



Brixton

My point exactly. How many people security people / police / civilians did the people of Toxteth or Brixton set out to kill, or kill? Zero is the answer to both questions, Francie. Did paramilitaries hide among civilians in Brixton, or did any of the rioters in Brixton want to kill a policeman or police people? A whole different ball game.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

My point exactly. How many people security people / police / civilians did the people of Toxteth or Brixton set out to kill, or kill? Zero is the answer to both questions, Francie. Did paramilitaries hide among civilians in Brixton? A whole different ball game.

How do you know?

What is the difference between a brick fired in Toxteth and Brixton and one in Derry or Belfast.

You are talking pure rubbish again in your persistent, consistent defence of the defenceless.

Mark Durkan, SDLP wrote:

These papers confirm that the British government really knew just how unsafe, unreliable, injurious and lethal these weapons could be.

"At one level, the victims of these bullets and their families have felt and suspected something of this order all along. At another level it is grossly shocking to find that cynical malevolence corroborated in government papers.

citytillidie

janfebmar wrote: »

We also saw that the people in England will do nothing like kill 2 police officers, one catholic and one protestant, like they did in Derry 2 days before Bloody Sunday. Lessons have been learnt, policing of marches and riots now is nothing like it was half a century ago.

Still ignoring the other posts i see

FrancieBrady

citytillidie wrote: »

Still ignoring the other posts i see

Quite clear now that neither downcow or janfebmar believe the following:

If the state is involved in killing somebody (whosoever that might be) when they have the opportunity to arrest and try them, that is wrong, fundamentally wrong, in front of any international court.

Countless times now they have tried to vindicate what soldiers have unlawfully done in Ireland.

citytillidie

In London, between Monday afternoon and the early hours of Tuesday, 14 people were injured by rioters. These included a 75-year-old woman who suffered a broken hip in Hackney.[6]

In Barking, East London, 20-year-old Malaysian student Ashraf Rossli was beaten and then robbed twice by looters emptying his rucksack. Footage of the second mugging, which appears to show the second set of muggers pretend to help him then proceed to ransack his rucksack, was uploaded onto YouTube. He suffered a broken jaw, requiring surgery.[7][77] On 2 March 2012, two men, John Kafunda of Ilford and Reece Donovan of Romford, were found guilty of the robbery of Rossli and also violent disorder by a jury at Wood Green Crown Court.[78] The convictions were quashed by the Court of Appeal on 29 November 2012.[79]

In Chingford, East London, three police officers were hit by a car used as a getaway vehicle by a group who looted the Aristocrat store on Chingford Mount Road. Two of the officers were seriously injured and taken to hospital.[80]

In total, 186 police officers were injured[9] as well as 3 Police Community Support Officers.[8] Five police dogs were also reported injured.[81]

Ten firefighters were injured as the London Fire Brigade dealt with over 100 serious fires caused by the disturbances. The LFB also reported that eight of its fire engines had their windscreens smashed and that two fire cars were attacked.

I say those 3 police officers run over could easily have been killed

citytillidie

And again well done in moving the thread away from the 12th

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Quite clear now that neither downcow or janfebmar believe the following:

If the state is involved in killing somebody (whosoever that might be) when they have the opportunity to arrest and try them, that is wrong, fundamentally wrong, in front of any international court.

Countless times now they have tried to vindicate what soldiers have unlawfully done in Ireland.

I assume you are talking about cases like where the Irish army soldier tried to stop a car containing "the Border Fox",at a checkpoint in Co. Kilkenny in the eighties, and when it did not stop the car was fired on and the driver killed after a firefight. I thought cases like that were lawful, and there was no enquiry or anything?

I have always said soldiers should uphold and act according to the law. I do not believe the law was broken in cases like the above.

citytillidie wrote: »

I say those 3 police officers run over could easily have been killed

Could have. My aunt could have been my Uncle if .....

The point was nobody set out to kill or maim in London. Nobody was killed in those disturbances, accidentally or otherwise.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Quite clear now that neither downcow or janfebmar believe the following:

If the state is involved in killing somebody (whosoever that might be) when they have the opportunity to arrest and try them, that is wrong, fundamentally wrong, in front of any international court.

Countless times now they have tried to vindicate what soldiers have unlawfully done in Ireland.

You see francie it would be easy for me to say it is always wrong, but I try to have integrity and be honest. I will say it’s complex and certainly to be avoided if at all possible.

Now it have answered you. Can you answer me a similar question. When the ira murdered people was it “wrong, fundamentally wrong,” in every case. ??

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

I assume you are talking about cases like where the Irish army soldier tried to stop a car containing "the Border Fox",at a checkpoint in Co. Kilkenny in the eighties, and when it did not stop the car was fired on and the driver killed after a firefight. I thought cases like that were lawful, and there was no enquiry or anything?

I have always said soldiers should uphold and act according to the law. I do not believe the law was broken in cases like the above.

Now you throw denseness into the debate.

If the state is involved in killing somebody (whosoever that might be) when they have the opportunity to arrest and try them, that is wrong, fundamentally wrong, in front of any international court.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You see francie it would be easy for me to say it is always wrong, but I try to have integrity and be honest. I will say it’s complex and certainly to be avoided if at all possible.

Which allows you and jan and blanch etc to try to vindicate the actions of the state here, which is what you have been trying to do.
It will not wash and never will and no amount of moaning about we are the real victims is going to deflect away from that.

Now it have answered you. Can you answer me a similar question. When the ira murdered people was it “wrong, fundamentally wrong,” in every case. ??

Which bit of 'It was ALL wrong', don't you understand?

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Now you throw denseness into the debate.

If the state is involved in killing somebody (whosoever that might be) when they have the opportunity to arrest and try them, that is wrong, fundamentally wrong, in front of any international court.

lol. You will not answer questions, the only case you want to talk about is Bloody Sunday and you keep repeating the same sentence. And you accuse others of denseness!

citytillidie

janfebmar wrote: »

I assume you are talking about cases like where the Irish army soldier tried to stop a car containing "the Border Fox",at a checkpoint in Co. Kilkenny in the eighties, and when it did not stop the car was fired on and the driver killed after a firefight. I thought cases like that were lawful, and there was no enquiry or anything?

I have always said soldiers should uphold and act according to the law. I do not believe the law was broken in cases like the above.




Could have. My aunt could have been my Uncle if .....

The point was nobody set out to kill or maim in London. Nobody was killed in those disturbances, accidentally or otherwise.

How do you know? Did you go around and ask all those part of it?

citytillidie

janfebmar wrote: »

lol. You will not answer questions, the only case you want to talk about is Bloody Sunday and you keep repeating the same sentence. And you accuse others of denseness!

You can not be calling people out on avoiding questions

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

lol. You will not answer questions, the only case you want to talk about is Bloody Sunday and you keep repeating the same sentence. And you accuse others of denseness!

The same rule applies to all states, in all situations.

janfebmar

citytillidie wrote: »

How do you know? Did you go around and ask all those part of it?

I know nobody died in the Brixton riots because if they had, it would have been reported in the media.

citytillidie

janfebmar wrote: »

I know nobody died in the Brixton riots because if they had, it would have been reported in the media.

Just because no one died does not mean people did not set out to kill someone. You don't know what is going through peoples heads.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

I know nobody died in the Brixton riots because if they had, it would have been reported in the media.

How many BA soldiers died in riots in Northern Ireland?

janfebmar

citytillidie wrote: »

Just because no one died does not mean people did not set out to kill someone. .

If the rioters set out to kill someone in Brixton, I would imagine someone would have been killed. In any event, I am glad they were not. If thats the worst civil disturbance you can think of in England, then good for you.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How many BA soldiers died in riots in Northern Ireland?

It was police who were in the front line in London, because nobody had killed the police there. You know, the police are those people with the funny uniforms, a bit like the police in Derry who some Republicans shot at only a month or two ago during a riot and injured a journalist instead? Sorry, did you insinuate security forces were never shot at, threatened or attacked during riots or civil disturbances in N. Ireland? You know what rioters used to lace petrol bombs with?

citytillidie

hmmm I was actually talking about the 2011 riots that were mainly in North London and other towns and cities in England (including Birmingham, Leeds, Coventry, Leicester, Derby, Wolverhampton, Northampton, Nottingham, West Bromwich, Bristol, Liverpool, Manchester, Salford and York

Anyways back to the 12th and Marching

It will be nice to see nothing happen on Saturday when there is marching here in Derry but then the Apprentice boys of Derry talk to their catholic neighbours and hold talks about marching