Most gender equal countries have the unhappiest women?

looksee

Some 17pc of this age group of women in Ireland report being moderately or severely depressed compared to an EU average of 9pc.
(Independant)

Eurofound researchers say nearly 17 per cent Irish women aged 15-24 are at risk of developing symptoms of depression(Times)

So which is it? Self diagnosis of being depressed, or researchers saying (based on what professional opinion?) that people are 'at risk'.

Does this take any account of an individual's interpretation of the term 'depression'? How many people will claim to be depressed when they are just fed up? Does it account for differences in language and interpretation?

While there could well be a real issue there that needs attention, the more you tell people that they are depressed, or should be depressed, or have a 'right' to be depressed, the more depressed people you will end up with.

meeeeh

looksee wrote: »

So which is it? Self diagnosis of being depressed, or researchers saying (based on what professional opinion?) that people are 'at risk'.

Does this take any account of an individual's interpretation of the term 'depression'? How many people will claim to be depressed when they are just fed up? Does it account for differences in language and interpretation?

While there could well be a real issue there that needs attention, the more you tell people that they are depressed, or should be depressed, or have a 'right' to be depressed, the more depressed people you will end up with.

I'm too lazy to go through report again (it's on the page linked in my first post) but as far as I remember Irish young women are at the top for chronic and severe depression . The are looking at two different categories.
Edit Ok Maybe I'm not too lazy.

Data for 2016 indicates that 14% of Europeans aged 18–24
were at risk of depression. Across the EU, young Swedes
were most at risk of depression (41%). It is interesting
that Sweden was the only country where young people
(18–24 years) were less likely than older citizens to report
optimism about their future (EQLS 2016). The secondhighest proportion of young people at risk of depression
was found in Estonia (27%), followed by Malta (22%), the
Netherlands (21%) and the UK (20%).
As would be expected, experience of chronic depression
among young people was lower than the rate of being at
risk of depression. Data for 2014 shows that 4% of those
aged 15–24 were chronically depressed. The highest
proportion of young people reporting chronic depression
was found in Ireland (12%), followed by Finland (11%),
Sweden (10%) and Germany (9%).
Gender is an important factor in depression, and Figure 7
shows that in the majority of Member States young women
aged 15–24 were more likely to suffer from depression
than young men. The greatest gender gaps were in
Denmark, Germany, Ireland and Sweden. Only in Cyprus,
Greece and Lithuania were there higher percentages of
young men with depressive symptoms. There are also
indicators that young women are more likely to handle
upsetting events internally – a factor linked to depression.
These include higher rates of self-harm and eating
disorders such as anorexia or bulimia among this group
compared to young men.
Young people’s risk of depression is strongly linked to
socioeconomic status. Figure 8 shows that during 2011
and 2016 young people living in households in the
lowest income quartile were more likely to be at risk of
depression than those in higher quartiles (though this was
not the case for 2007, when risk was highest in the secondlowest quartile). However, the differences in risk in the
top three quartiles for 2011 and 2016 were not that large;
nor are they easy to explain. The data also show that the
overall proportion of young people at risk of depression
increased from 16% to 19% between 2007 and 2011 (in
the surveys before and after the economic crisis). There
was an improvement between 2011 and 2016, from 19%
to 14%, taking the risk level to below pre-crisis levels. This
was the case for risk in all quartiles apart from the lowest,
which saw improvement from 2011 but with risk remaining
higher than the pre-crisis level

Page 15 in the report

https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/publications/report/2019/inequalities-in-the-access-of-young-people-to-information-and-support-services

ArchXStanton

Women drank from the poison chalice that is feminism... One thing I agree with the red pillers on, its not men's problem to sort out, your mess, you clean it

Assetbacked

Women are ending up single as a result of being pummelled with information which claims they need to be independent, sleep with who they want, have careers etc. This is fine but it should be qualified with some simple statement on biology that a woman should also look to have kids before she's 35. However, this does not fit with this idealised, superhero woman picture, one who don't need no man.

We are told women are having kids later which means they are putting it off and therefore have a smaller window within which to have them. Too much of this strong, independent woman message, to the point where women are convinced they genuinely might not need men, will lead to childless women. And I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of women want children so of course they won't be happy.

El_Duderino 09

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Women drank from the poison chalice that is feminism... One thing I agree with the red pillers on, its not men's problem to sort out, your mess, you clean it

What an abdication if responsibility for the world you live in. Surprised to see so much faith in feminism to sort out such important issues.

TBH I’d be shocked if you did anything except oppose any solutions they proposed.

mvl

Assetbacked wrote: »

Women are ending up single as a result of being pummelled with information which claims they need to be independent, sleep with who they want, have careers etc. This is fine but it should be qualified with some simple statement on biology that a woman should also look to have kids before she's 35. However, this does not fit with this idealised, superhero woman picture, one who don't need no man.

We are told women are having kids later which means they are putting it off and therefore have a smaller window within which to have them. Too much of this strong, independent woman message, to the point where women are convinced they genuinely might not need men, will lead to childless women. And I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of women want children so of course they won't be happy.

But to me discussing about the mental health challenges for teenage girls and young women before 24 is different than the discussion about unmarried women who might live longer and happier than married ones ...

Triceratops Ballet

Deleted User wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/health/young-women-in-ireland-have-the-highest-levels-of-depression-in-europe-38284236.html

Study after study seems to show this. Here it's Ireland Sweden Denmark and Germany. These are all very gender equal countries. Is it because they can speak out more, or is it because more equality makes women miserable? Genuinely interested.

That's a bit of a leap op, girls and women aged 14-24 are more depressed on avg due to reasons xy and z, but sure it can't be those things it must be feminisms fault!! :rolleyes:

Next we'll discover that the heat of feminist rage is what caused the polar ice caps to melt! Think about it, 4th wave feminism kicks off and now we have a major climate crisis on our hands....eh eh?

StudentDad

I don't think this is a gender specific problem per se. It's a product of modern society, whatever that is. It feels like a situation where people want everything. The career, the money and the freedom that goes with that. Somehow that idea has been strapped to the notion of a family and kids and all that goes with that. It doesn't always work like that. I've known a few people over the years who have one or other. Not necessarily both. Those that have balanced the two invariably have had one hell of a juggling act to follow to make it work. In the end, I think it boils down to the fact that more and more people are not willing to compromise and ironically in the long run they wind up with less in terms of personal capital. I've known a few people who have gone down the career, party, spend and have fun route and woken up at 40 odd all in a heap because they don't have a Mrs. or a Mr. in their lives. This invariably causes a scramble of OMG must find partner! Unfortunately this leads to the idea that, sure he'll do or she'll do. Not a recipe for relationship bliss to my mind anyway.

It is ironic that in an age where there are no real sanctions for behaviour that would have been frowned upon 50 years ago is okay now and yet in many cases that freedom has led to less happiness.

ArchXStanton

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What an abdication if responsibility for the world you live in. Surprised to see so much faith in feminism to sort out such important issues.

TBH I’d be shocked if you did anything except oppose any solutions they proposed.

Nothing wrong with a bit of accountability..

givyjoe

GRACKEA wrote: »

I think it definitely could be the fact that people are more aware and vocal about their mental health. I know my mam and nanny's generations would have just called depressive feelings "life" tbh.

The article cites homelessness and lack of access to supports as factors too which I'm surprised about in the Scandi countries.

Modern life is also way more stressful than it ever was. Economic conditions are objectively worse in a lot of cases for the so called first generation to be worse off than their parents. At least back in the day, families and mothers never really had to worry about where they'd live even if their domestic or working lives were crap.

And lack of sunlight for loads of the year perhaps. It's all very complicated and a v worrying trend.

Assuming you mean modern life now compared to post WW1/WW2 life? Because life before that in most countries (for most people) was pretty sh1t.

El_Duderino 09

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Nothing wrong with a bit of accountability..

I don’t suppose there is anything wrong with it. And how should “the feminists” submit their solutions for your approval?

meeeeh

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Nothing wrong with a bit of accountability..

Nothing wrong about actually informing yourself on what you are responding to. But maybe it's beyond your pay grade.

jam_mac_jam

Is everyone talking about a different article or survey then the one that is linked? Because there is nothing in the article that you are talking about.

mvl

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Is everyone talking about a different article or survey then the one that is linked? Because there is nothing in the article that you are talking about.

oh yeah, everybody is very clear about own agenda, cause OP linked article has nothing to do with the thread title

GRACKEA

givyjoe wrote: »

Assuming you mean modern life now compared to post WW1/WW2 life? Because life before that in most countries (for most people) was pretty sh1t.

Well, taking stress specifically as a measure, yes people are suffering more from stress. Less leisure time, less financial security eg unaffordable housing & precarious work, more traffic, burnout in work and personal lives, bombardment of media. The figure of people reporting stress is constantly rising: https://www.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/mental-health/why-is-stress-in-the-workplace-on-the-rise-37032191.html

And as the article refers to young people, it's happening to them too: www.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Feducation%2Firish-teens-find-exams-more-stressful-than-international-students-1.3053904

Yeah we have more social and food or travel options than previous generations, but our mental health is worse, which I accept could be down to increased reporting and recording of these things, but the figures are all there. It was previously all just written off as hysteria I suppose rather than taken seriously or addressed as the real issue it is.


Edit: oh sorry, pardon the hyperbole ("ever") and hasty response. Yes post WW2 is way more accurate than ever. As the OP was about gender equality I was thinking more 20th century comparisons.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

This thread:

What causes depression in women is <stuff I don’t like>

Assetbacked

mvl wrote: »

But to me discussing about the mental health challenges for teenage girls and young women before 24 is different than the discussion about unmarried women who might live longer and happier than married ones ...

The OP is not solely about that age group but is a general question. Therefore, not sure why you are side tracking?

jam_mac_jam

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

This thread:

What causes depression in women is <stuff I don’t like>

And what women need to realize is good for them.

conorhal

It's social media. Everybody know's it's social media, some time around 2009-12 the rates of depression for teenage girls went through the roof (no prizes for guessing which tech platforms were taking off around that time).
Irish teenage girls in particular are among the highest users of social media in Europe, if not the highest.

Jonathan Haidt has written a lot on the subject and the results are frightening.



https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jan/04/depression-in-girls-linked-to-higher-use-of-social-media

Almost 40% of girls who spend more than five hours a day on social media show symptoms of depression.

4068ac1elhodqr

Is the recent phenomenon in Sweden, of being forced to have 'women only' music festivals - the future of gender equality and harmony?
Many others reckon women-only train carriages in Ireland woule be a progressive move.

Eric Cartman

[/LIST]

Itzayana Gifted Pantry wrote: »

Is the recent phenomenon in Sweden, of being forced to have 'women only' music festivals - the future of gender equality and harmony?
Many others reckon women-only train carriages in Ireland woule be a progressive move.

That has more to do with massively importing people who come from cultures where a woman can be treated the same way as a vacuum cleaner and the resulting massive increase in sexual assaults caused by that minority.

Silentcorner

conorhal wrote: »

It's social media. Everybody know's it's social media, some time around 2009-12 the rates of depression for teenage girls went through the roof (no prizes for guessing which tech platforms were taking off around that time).
Irish teenage girls in particular are among the highest users of social media in Europe, if not the highest.

Jonathan Haidt has written a lot on the subject and the results are frightening.

<SNIP>

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jan/04/depression-in-girls-linked-to-higher-use-of-social-media

Almost 40% of girls who spend more than five hours a day on social media show symptoms of depression.

It's beyond obvious...these platforms are addictive...nothing that is addictive is healthy...young women in particular are tying their self worth to a platform that "rewards" beauty in the form of likes/attention...it is lethal for a persons sense of self esteem.

I'm actually surprised the well funded Womens Council are not all over this, it is only in the last few weeks our government has advised the beauty industry it shouldn't be serving botox to under 18s....I had no idea that young women felt that insecure about themselves, altho you only need to pass a teenage disco to observe how much important it is to show as much of one's body as one can.

Eric Cartman

Silentcorner wrote: »

It's beyond obvious...these platforms are addictive...nothing that is addictive is healthy...young women in particular are tying their self worth to a platform that "rewards" beauty in the form of likes/attention...it is lethal for a persons sense of self esteem.

I'm actually surprised the well funded Womens Council are not all over this, it is only in the last few weeks our government has advised the beauty industry it shouldn't be serving botox to under 18s....I had no idea that young women felt that insecure about themselves, altho you only need to pass a teenage disco to observe how much important it is to show as much of one's body as one can.

Sadly the womens council only deal with problems they can blame men or the government for. The social media 'influencer' 'instagram model' craze is women competing with other women for likes as to who can be the 'best' by an arbitrary metric theyve set for each other. Pressuring young girls to post photos with ever more makeup, ever less clothes and pushing themselves to get thinner and enhance features with dangerous medication and products from internet stores, all to get more and more likes to compete with other young women.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

I'm actually surprised the well funded Womens Council are not all over this, it is only in the last few weeks our government has advised the beauty industry it shouldn't be serving botox to under 18s....I had no idea that young women felt that insecure about themselves, altho you only need to pass a teenage disco to observe how much important it is to show as much of one's body as one can.

You had no idea young women felt insecure about themselves? On what level of reality’s are we operating here? Teenagers are constantly changing and developing biologically and socially - the gangly year’s for lads. Of course they’re insecure. Teenage years are synonyms with insecurity

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You had no idea young women felt insecure about themselves? On what level of reality’s are we operating here? Teenagers are constantly changing and developing biologically and socially - the gangly year’s for lads. Of course they’re insecure. Teenage years are synonyms with insecurity

What level of reality? How many levels are there? What are you on about...

Of course I am aware teenagers are insecure, what I didn't realise was how insecure they have become, to the point where we permit cosmetic procedures on under 18s, or any young woman/man for that matter...when they say youth is wasted on the youth I don't think they meant this, keep your cosmetic procedures, if that is your will, to a point in your life where you understand to long term implications!

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

What level of reality? How many levels are there? What are you on about...

Of course I am aware teenagers are insecure, what I didn't realise was how insecure they have become, to the point where we permit cosmetic procedures on under 18s, or any young woman/man for that matter...when they say youth is wasted on the youth I don't think they meant this, keep your cosmetic procedures, if that is your will, to a point in your life where you understand to long term implications!

I’m just looking at the reality in which we live. Teenagers have always been the exact same. The only difference is the availability of social media and the availability of cosmetic surgery. I presume cosmetic procedures were never regulated in the first place rather than having been deregulated to allow teenagers to take them.

I’d agree that we need the State to regulate cosmetic surgery. Nanny State as some people will inevitably call it.

Dyr

conorhal wrote: »

It's social media. Everybody know's it's social media,.

These stats for women started tho rise in the 70s, its not social media

kowloon

GRACKEA wrote: »

Modern life is also way more stressful than it ever was. Economic conditions are objectively worse in a lot of cases for the so called first generation to be worse off than their parents.

I kind of think there's going to be a reaction to the whole feminism craic in 20 years or so..

Like, you're seeing a generation of women hitting their mid forties or fifties now, independent, childless and realising they were sold a pup..

I think there will be a reaction to it in time..

Kimsang

In more gender equal countries, you see more sexual di-morphism, not less.

I.e.
In Iran(less equal), there are more female computer programmers
In Sweden(more equal), there are less female computer programmers
https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/

This is because, when left to our own devices, we make our own choices.

Men generally prefer to work with things, and women generally prefer to work with people. This makes us make different life choices!

So really the OP's argument rests on what he means by most gender equal countries?

Does most gender equal mean 50% women everything,
or does it mean we will see disparate outcomes due to different choices between men and women?
Equality of opportunity or outcome?