Most gender equal countries have the unhappiest women?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/health/young-women-in-ireland-have-the-highest-levels-of-depression-in-europe-38284236.html

Study after study seems to show this. Here it's Ireland Sweden Denmark and Germany. These are all very gender equal countries. Is it because they can speak out more, or is it because more equality makes women miserable? Genuinely interested.

GRACKEA

I think it definitely could be the fact that people are more aware and vocal about their mental health. I know my mam and nanny's generations would have just called depressive feelings "life" tbh.

The article cites homelessness and lack of access to supports as factors too which I'm surprised about in the Scandi countries.

Modern life is also way more stressful than it ever was. Economic conditions are objectively worse in a lot of cases for the so called first generation to be worse off than their parents. At least back in the day, families and mothers never really had to worry about where they'd live even if their domestic or working lives were crap.

And lack of sunlight for loads of the year perhaps. It's all very complicated and a v worrying trend.

Silentcorner

I think social media has had a huge impact on the lives of women in particular, you can see it on your feeds, we are in a narcissism epidemic.

I think the access to porn and online gambling is having a huge impact on the lives of young men.

We haven't yet figured out a healthy way to consume content/activities on our mobile phones...we are addicted to them.

CageWager

Its because while nobody wants to admit it, men are at their happiest when providing for their families and women are at their happiest when they are caring for their families. We can try impose (albeit noble) ideologies and engineer social frameworks but ultimately we can’t escape our own nature.

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/health/young-women-in-ireland-have-the-highest-levels-of-depression-in-europe-38284236.html

Study after study seems to show this. Here it's Ireland Sweden Denmark and Germany. These are all very gender equal countries. Is it because they can speak out more, or is it because more equality makes women miserable? Genuinely interested.

Because they are trying to be men and expecting men to be women ...and this is impossible.

GRACKEA

GRACKEA wrote: »

I think it definitely could be the fact that people are more aware and vocal about their mental health. I know my mam and nanny's generations would have just called depressive feelings "life" tbh.

worth asking if they werent better off

ILoveYourVibes

Silentcorner wrote: »

I think social media has had a huge impact on the lives of women in particular, you can see it on your feeds, we are in a narcissism epidemic.

I think the access to porn and online gambling is having a huge impact on the lives of young men.

We haven't yet figured out a healthy way to consume content/activities on our mobile phones...we are addicted to them.

I don't really believe porn and gambling is having an impact on the lives of young men.

Very few men actually are regular gamblers.

Most porn viewing would be harmless. I think that is fear mongering.

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

worth asking if they werent better off

I actually think women of my grandmother's generations were more expressive in their emotions.

Women these days think they have to be strong etc. Fighters. Stoic in the wrong ways.

GarIT

I've noticed that in the last 5 years women's dating expectations are going way up and they aren't offering much in return. Its only my anecdotal evidence but I've met many women lately that expect that outside the home they expect everything to be paid for and handed to them and inside the home we are equal partners now so we both do half of everything. Essentially they want traditional relationships where it suits them and equal relationships where it suits them.

I've friends that have come out with things like "if a man wants to date me he needs to do X, y and z". And another time they will say something like "nothing should be expected of women it's 2019 and were equal now".

We are seeing so many more attractive people and "perfect" relationships that average people are struggling with their relationships. Some women I know are always disappointed with their relationships but feel they aren't responsible for adding any value to the relationship.

mvl

yeah, very independent-esque: an article about studies on young women & depression having a picture of a 50 year old ... that gets discussed here on boards with a gender equality flavor !!!

ILoveYourVibes

GarIT wrote: »

I've noticed that in the last 5 years women's dating expectations are going way up and they aren't offering much in return. Its only my anecdotal evidence but I've met many women lately that expect that outside the home they expect everything to be paid for and handed to them and inside the home we are equal partners now so we both do half of everything. Essentially they want traditional relationships where it suits them and equal relationships where it suits them.

We are seeing so many more attractive people and "perfect" relationships that average people are struggling with their relationships.

I don't want people to pay for anything. Just take the lead etc.

meeeeh

Deleted User wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/health/young-women-in-ireland-have-the-highest-levels-of-depression-in-europe-38284236.html

Study after study seems to show this. Here it's Ireland Sweden Denmark and Germany. These are all very gender equal countries. Is it because they can speak out more, or is it because more equality makes women miserable? Genuinely interested.

This is complete misrepresentation of what research shows. They were evaluating effects of recession on the European youth and young adults. It's primarily about access to mental health services. As far as I can see no research was correlated to gender equality. Another variable could be use of social media (I think Irish are on the top of the list), Challenges of young people after the recession and multiple other causes. Gender equality could be one of them but I can't see any conclusion like that except in your post.

I know this is After Hours but please don't treat all of us like complete idiots unable to see that there is zero implication in the report for your conclusion. Not to mention that you just dismissed all women above 24 irrelevant. Don't you think that influence of gender equality on happiness of people should be also researched on those older than 24?

https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/news/news-articles/crisis-point-well-being-of-young-people-still-defined-by-the-economic-crisis

JohnnyFlash

Individualism, the death of spirituality, and the consumer society is making everyone miserable.

spurious

It's the Independent.

Always best to go to the source research paper and find out what they actually said.

Or get your news from the Beano. It's probably more sensible.

GarIT

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I don't want people to pay for anything. Just take the lead etc.

It's difficult to take the lead when the other person will only follow your lead when it suits them. I'm not saying anything about you in particular, it's just another thing I've come across.

ILoveYourVibes

spurious wrote: »

It's the Independent.

Always best to go to the source research paper and find out what they actually said.

Or get your news from the Beano. It's probably more sensible.

I am an avid VIZ reader :pac:

Nikki Sixx

They have to work and don’t see there kids I’d imagine. In countries with equality like Ireland, both parents have to work to service a mortgage/ rent and that has become the norm. You then have huge childcare costs on top of accommodation costs. In the 80’s when there were a lot of stay at home mums, one salary would cover the mortgage, houses were more affordable and kids spent a lot of time with their mothers. If you take all of the women working in Ireland nowadays, probably a small percentage “Love” their job, the rest would happily be at home with their kids.

meeeeh

Different article that better represents what research looked at. Binge drinking, inequality, homelessness, cyber bullying, body image and active lifestyle were all looked at. Strangely nobody actually made any conclusions about gender equality.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/young-irish-women-suffer-highest-levels-of-depression-in-europe-1.3947527

meeeeh

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

They have to work and don’t see there kids I’d imagine. In countries with equality like Ireland, both parents have to work to service a mortgage/ rent and that has become the norm. You then have huge childcare costs on top of accommodation costs. In the 80’s when there were a lot of stay at home mums, one salary would cover the mortgage, houses were more affordable and kids spent a lot of time with their mothers. If you take all of the women working in Ireland nowadays, probably a small percentage “Love” their job, the rest would happily be at home with their kids.

Did you even read the basics. It's about the 14-24 age group. How many of them are actually dealing with the issues you pointed out.

I'm not surprised if Trump or Brexit can happen if this the level of checking what the research is actually about.

Reviews and Books Galore

meeeeh wrote: »

This is complete misrepresentation of what research shows. They were evaluating effects of recession on the European youth and young adults. It's primarily about access to mental health services. As far as I can see no research was correlated to gender equality. Another variable could be use of social media (I think Irish are on the top of the list), Challenges of young people after the recession and multiple other causes. Gender equality could be one of them but I can't see any conclusion like that except in your post.

I know this is After Hours but please don't treat all of us like complete idiots unable to see that there is zero implication in the report for your conclusion. Not to mention that you just dismissed all women above 24 irrelevant. Don't you think that influence of gender equality on happiness of people should be also researched on those older than 24?

https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/news/news-articles/crisis-point-well-being-of-young-people-still-defined-by-the-economic-crisis

For somebody asking not to be treated like an idiot, your kind of treating the poster like one :P

Although, most people in their mid twenties get melancholic as its a transitory time.

ILoveYourVibes

meeeeh wrote: »

Different article that better represents what research looked at. Binge drinking, inequality, homelessness, cyber bullying, body image and active lifestyle were all looked at. Strangely nobody actually made any conclusions about gender equality.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/young-irish-women-suffer-highest-levels-of-depression-in-europe-1.3947527

Agreed those things are bad too.

meeeeh

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

For somebody asking not to be treated like an idiot, your kind of treating the poster like one :P

Although, most people in their mid twenties get melancholic as its a transitory time.

Not like an idiot but like someone who takes a report and twists it and misrepresents it to suit their agenda.

dotsman

Ask yourself this - "Have you ever met a happy feminist?"

Modern Feminism has become about trying to convince women that they have everything so bad and it's all men's fault.

CelticRambler

I work in a sector that was traditionally male-dominated, but has become increasingly feminised over the years. The essential nature of the work, however, has not changed significantly - typically long days, often unpredictable, swinging from being intellectually and emotionally challenging to physically challenging and back again, often several times in the space of a few hours.

Over the course of 25 years, as reported by several industry studies, the level of job satisfaction has steadily decreased and the rate of people quitting the profession has steadily increased. Is it because women make up more of our workforce? Well, my own personal experience suggests that that's an undoubted yes. I now work only short-term contracts (by choice), and every single one of the last 18 has been to replace one woman causing another woman a load of stress, arising from a conflict of personal and professional demands.

As one of my long-time friends in the same profession remarked recently: thanks to a combination of university entrance criteria and sexing up the profession in the media, we've been deliberately selecting the wrong kind of people for the job - white, middle-class, well-educated, young women. That's an awful lot of women in my field alone who are pretty miserable on account of achieving professional equality.

Das Reich

Those countries have also a horrible alimentation with people being very americanized and unhealthy.

ILoveYourVibes

dotsman wrote: »

Ask yourself this - "Have you ever met a happy feminist?"

Modern Feminism has become about trying to convince women that they have everything so bad and it's all men's fault.

I disagree. feminism wants to convince women that any improvement in their lives is down to feminism and not the advance of democracy the economy and technology/science etc.

ILoveYourVibes

Das Reich wrote: »

Those countries have also a horrible alimentation with people being very americanized and unhealthy.

Very true. Too individualistic. Less focus on trying to achieve harmony with other people around you.

meeeeh

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Very true. Too individualistic. Less focus on trying to achieve harmony with other people around you.

Oh it's Friday again.

mvl

meeeeh wrote: »

Different article that better represents what research looked at. Binge drinking, inequality, homelessness, cyber bullying, body image and active lifestyle were all looked at. Strangely nobody actually made any conclusions about gender equality.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/young-irish-women-suffer-highest-levels-of-depression-in-europe-1.3947527

This.
@ 15 I am sure they're far into getting the politics of gender inequality ... but it is important for us to hear why our kids are like that.
PS: also think thread title could be changed, it has nothing to do with the article from OP.

meeeeh

mvl wrote: »

This.
@ 15 I am sure they're far into getting the politics of gender inequality ... but it is important for us to hear why our kids are like that.
PS: also think thread title could be changed, it has nothing to do with the article from OP.

Yes its pity because it and interesting and important topic. I might be a bit more interested in because my older will be part of that group in 5 years. The challenges around mental health in young worry me.

Eric Cartman

Is it just me or are a lot of younger women lost i indecision. Almost all of the men I know would have chosen a career to trainfor at 17-18 and stuck to it or changed up career maybe once in their 30s , but it seems like younger women are constantly changing jobs (as in to different sectors alltogether) , bopping in and out of college or being on and off stay at home mothers. Its obviously not all women but theres a lot out there that have been in the ‘labour market’ for 10-15 years now and have no linear or stackable skills and have put no time into building a career, more just trying lots of things out and being upset that its not like they thought it would be.

Perhaps too much choice is a bad thing ha

looksee

Some 17pc of this age group of women in Ireland report being moderately or severely depressed compared to an EU average of 9pc.
(Independant)

Eurofound researchers say nearly 17 per cent Irish women aged 15-24 are at risk of developing symptoms of depression(Times)

So which is it? Self diagnosis of being depressed, or researchers saying (based on what professional opinion?) that people are 'at risk'.

Does this take any account of an individual's interpretation of the term 'depression'? How many people will claim to be depressed when they are just fed up? Does it account for differences in language and interpretation?

While there could well be a real issue there that needs attention, the more you tell people that they are depressed, or should be depressed, or have a 'right' to be depressed, the more depressed people you will end up with.

meeeeh

looksee wrote: »

So which is it? Self diagnosis of being depressed, or researchers saying (based on what professional opinion?) that people are 'at risk'.

Does this take any account of an individual's interpretation of the term 'depression'? How many people will claim to be depressed when they are just fed up? Does it account for differences in language and interpretation?

While there could well be a real issue there that needs attention, the more you tell people that they are depressed, or should be depressed, or have a 'right' to be depressed, the more depressed people you will end up with.

I'm too lazy to go through report again (it's on the page linked in my first post) but as far as I remember Irish young women are at the top for chronic and severe depression . The are looking at two different categories.
Edit Ok Maybe I'm not too lazy.

Data for 2016 indicates that 14% of Europeans aged 18–24
were at risk of depression. Across the EU, young Swedes
were most at risk of depression (41%). It is interesting
that Sweden was the only country where young people
(18–24 years) were less likely than older citizens to report
optimism about their future (EQLS 2016). The secondhighest proportion of young people at risk of depression
was found in Estonia (27%), followed by Malta (22%), the
Netherlands (21%) and the UK (20%).
As would be expected, experience of chronic depression
among young people was lower than the rate of being at
risk of depression. Data for 2014 shows that 4% of those
aged 15–24 were chronically depressed. The highest
proportion of young people reporting chronic depression
was found in Ireland (12%), followed by Finland (11%),
Sweden (10%) and Germany (9%).
Gender is an important factor in depression, and Figure 7
shows that in the majority of Member States young women
aged 15–24 were more likely to suffer from depression
than young men. The greatest gender gaps were in
Denmark, Germany, Ireland and Sweden. Only in Cyprus,
Greece and Lithuania were there higher percentages of
young men with depressive symptoms. There are also
indicators that young women are more likely to handle
upsetting events internally – a factor linked to depression.
These include higher rates of self-harm and eating
disorders such as anorexia or bulimia among this group
compared to young men.
Young people’s risk of depression is strongly linked to
socioeconomic status. Figure 8 shows that during 2011
and 2016 young people living in households in the
lowest income quartile were more likely to be at risk of
depression than those in higher quartiles (though this was
not the case for 2007, when risk was highest in the secondlowest quartile). However, the differences in risk in the
top three quartiles for 2011 and 2016 were not that large;
nor are they easy to explain. The data also show that the
overall proportion of young people at risk of depression
increased from 16% to 19% between 2007 and 2011 (in
the surveys before and after the economic crisis). There
was an improvement between 2011 and 2016, from 19%
to 14%, taking the risk level to below pre-crisis levels. This
was the case for risk in all quartiles apart from the lowest,
which saw improvement from 2011 but with risk remaining
higher than the pre-crisis level

Page 15 in the report

https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/publications/report/2019/inequalities-in-the-access-of-young-people-to-information-and-support-services

ArchXStanton

Women drank from the poison chalice that is feminism... One thing I agree with the red pillers on, its not men's problem to sort out, your mess, you clean it

Assetbacked

Women are ending up single as a result of being pummelled with information which claims they need to be independent, sleep with who they want, have careers etc. This is fine but it should be qualified with some simple statement on biology that a woman should also look to have kids before she's 35. However, this does not fit with this idealised, superhero woman picture, one who don't need no man.

We are told women are having kids later which means they are putting it off and therefore have a smaller window within which to have them. Too much of this strong, independent woman message, to the point where women are convinced they genuinely might not need men, will lead to childless women. And I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of women want children so of course they won't be happy.

El_Duderino 09

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Women drank from the poison chalice that is feminism... One thing I agree with the red pillers on, its not men's problem to sort out, your mess, you clean it

What an abdication if responsibility for the world you live in. Surprised to see so much faith in feminism to sort out such important issues.

TBH I’d be shocked if you did anything except oppose any solutions they proposed.

mvl

Assetbacked wrote: »

Women are ending up single as a result of being pummelled with information which claims they need to be independent, sleep with who they want, have careers etc. This is fine but it should be qualified with some simple statement on biology that a woman should also look to have kids before she's 35. However, this does not fit with this idealised, superhero woman picture, one who don't need no man.

We are told women are having kids later which means they are putting it off and therefore have a smaller window within which to have them. Too much of this strong, independent woman message, to the point where women are convinced they genuinely might not need men, will lead to childless women. And I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of women want children so of course they won't be happy.

But to me discussing about the mental health challenges for teenage girls and young women before 24 is different than the discussion about unmarried women who might live longer and happier than married ones ...

Triceratops Ballet

Deleted User wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/health/young-women-in-ireland-have-the-highest-levels-of-depression-in-europe-38284236.html

Study after study seems to show this. Here it's Ireland Sweden Denmark and Germany. These are all very gender equal countries. Is it because they can speak out more, or is it because more equality makes women miserable? Genuinely interested.

That's a bit of a leap op, girls and women aged 14-24 are more depressed on avg due to reasons xy and z, but sure it can't be those things it must be feminisms fault!! :rolleyes:

Next we'll discover that the heat of feminist rage is what caused the polar ice caps to melt! Think about it, 4th wave feminism kicks off and now we have a major climate crisis on our hands....eh eh?

StudentDad

I don't think this is a gender specific problem per se. It's a product of modern society, whatever that is. It feels like a situation where people want everything. The career, the money and the freedom that goes with that. Somehow that idea has been strapped to the notion of a family and kids and all that goes with that. It doesn't always work like that. I've known a few people over the years who have one or other. Not necessarily both. Those that have balanced the two invariably have had one hell of a juggling act to follow to make it work. In the end, I think it boils down to the fact that more and more people are not willing to compromise and ironically in the long run they wind up with less in terms of personal capital. I've known a few people who have gone down the career, party, spend and have fun route and woken up at 40 odd all in a heap because they don't have a Mrs. or a Mr. in their lives. This invariably causes a scramble of OMG must find partner! Unfortunately this leads to the idea that, sure he'll do or she'll do. Not a recipe for relationship bliss to my mind anyway.

It is ironic that in an age where there are no real sanctions for behaviour that would have been frowned upon 50 years ago is okay now and yet in many cases that freedom has led to less happiness.

ArchXStanton

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What an abdication if responsibility for the world you live in. Surprised to see so much faith in feminism to sort out such important issues.

TBH I’d be shocked if you did anything except oppose any solutions they proposed.

Nothing wrong with a bit of accountability..

givyjoe

GRACKEA wrote: »

I think it definitely could be the fact that people are more aware and vocal about their mental health. I know my mam and nanny's generations would have just called depressive feelings "life" tbh.

The article cites homelessness and lack of access to supports as factors too which I'm surprised about in the Scandi countries.

Modern life is also way more stressful than it ever was. Economic conditions are objectively worse in a lot of cases for the so called first generation to be worse off than their parents. At least back in the day, families and mothers never really had to worry about where they'd live even if their domestic or working lives were crap.

And lack of sunlight for loads of the year perhaps. It's all very complicated and a v worrying trend.

Assuming you mean modern life now compared to post WW1/WW2 life? Because life before that in most countries (for most people) was pretty sh1t.

El_Duderino 09

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Nothing wrong with a bit of accountability..

I don’t suppose there is anything wrong with it. And how should “the feminists” submit their solutions for your approval?

meeeeh

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Nothing wrong with a bit of accountability..

Nothing wrong about actually informing yourself on what you are responding to. But maybe it's beyond your pay grade.

jam_mac_jam

Is everyone talking about a different article or survey then the one that is linked? Because there is nothing in the article that you are talking about.

mvl

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Is everyone talking about a different article or survey then the one that is linked? Because there is nothing in the article that you are talking about.

oh yeah, everybody is very clear about own agenda, cause OP linked article has nothing to do with the thread title

GRACKEA

givyjoe wrote: »

Assuming you mean modern life now compared to post WW1/WW2 life? Because life before that in most countries (for most people) was pretty sh1t.

Well, taking stress specifically as a measure, yes people are suffering more from stress. Less leisure time, less financial security eg unaffordable housing & precarious work, more traffic, burnout in work and personal lives, bombardment of media. The figure of people reporting stress is constantly rising: https://www.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/mental-health/why-is-stress-in-the-workplace-on-the-rise-37032191.html

And as the article refers to young people, it's happening to them too: www.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Feducation%2Firish-teens-find-exams-more-stressful-than-international-students-1.3053904

Yeah we have more social and food or travel options than previous generations, but our mental health is worse, which I accept could be down to increased reporting and recording of these things, but the figures are all there. It was previously all just written off as hysteria I suppose rather than taken seriously or addressed as the real issue it is.


Edit: oh sorry, pardon the hyperbole ("ever") and hasty response. Yes post WW2 is way more accurate than ever. As the OP was about gender equality I was thinking more 20th century comparisons.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

This thread:

What causes depression in women is <stuff I don’t like>

Assetbacked

mvl wrote: »

But to me discussing about the mental health challenges for teenage girls and young women before 24 is different than the discussion about unmarried women who might live longer and happier than married ones ...

The OP is not solely about that age group but is a general question. Therefore, not sure why you are side tracking?

jam_mac_jam

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

This thread:

What causes depression in women is <stuff I don’t like>

And what women need to realize is good for them.

conorhal

It's social media. Everybody know's it's social media, some time around 2009-12 the rates of depression for teenage girls went through the roof (no prizes for guessing which tech platforms were taking off around that time).
Irish teenage girls in particular are among the highest users of social media in Europe, if not the highest.

Jonathan Haidt has written a lot on the subject and the results are frightening.



https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jan/04/depression-in-girls-linked-to-higher-use-of-social-media

Almost 40% of girls who spend more than five hours a day on social media show symptoms of depression.

4068ac1elhodqr

Is the recent phenomenon in Sweden, of being forced to have 'women only' music festivals - the future of gender equality and harmony?
Many others reckon women-only train carriages in Ireland woule be a progressive move.