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Deer Poaching

  • 04-07-2019 8:31am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭ HW100S


    Hello All

    I'll try & keep this as direct as possible.

    Background information:

    My hunting situation is I’m not involved in deer stalking (at the moment anyway) and my main hunting activities are rough shooting & vermin (fox & rabbit) control - the latter normally takes place after dark on various farms and private lands where I have permission to enter and hunt.
    Calibre of choice is either 223 or 17HMR depending on the different locations/requirement.
    Some of my permissions are close to areas where deer are supposed to be present, despite the fact but I have never seen any. This has led to some conversation recently with some fellow hunters on the topic of deer poaching.

    Anyway, to shorten the story, I have received some feedback recently from different individuals stating that I 'need to be careful' when out at night in these areas with a rifle & torch as this could be considered poaching? It’s been stated that wildlife rangers are monitoring these areas including public roadways presently to prevent alleged poaching (which I’m totally in favour of btw). It has also been stated that the wildlife rangers have the power to seize firearms, torches etc. if poaching is suspected and that just being in the area/public road ways alone is grounds for suspected poaching. Again??
    My initial reaction that this is B***S but it’s been on my mind since, especially since I am considering getting into deer stalking with a 243 potentially, which will act as a dual purpose deer & fox set-up. This was also relayed back as being a red flag that a deer legal calibre i.e. 243 is unnecessary for fox control. Again, I disagree as some of the fields on my permissions are very large so a 243 is justified in certain instances.

    So where can I find the correct information on the above?

    Who has the power to seize firearms, equipment etc. and on what grounds?

    I want to continue my vermin hunting activities on my permissions but I also want to be 100% that I’m not doing anything that is considered incorrect.


    Is all of the above scare mongering rubbish or has it any substance to it?


    Any thought/comments on the above?



    Thanks


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭ Half-cocked


    Do no harm to contact the local NPWS ranger for a chat about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭ HW100S


    Do no harm to contact the local NPWS ranger for a chat about it.


    Good idea.

    NPWS: is that national parks & wildlife service? and is this the same organisation that a wildlife rangers belongs to?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Wildlife act 1976 gives you the bit on authorisation and what may be seized by whom http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1976/act/39/section/72/enacted/en/html#sec72
    This was also relayed back as being a red flag that a deer legal calibre i.e. 243 is unnecessary for fox control.

    I take it ,this came from someone in uniform??


    I have received some feedback recently from different individuals stating that I 'need to be careful' when out at night in these areas with a rifle & torch as this could be considered poaching

    Who exactly? AGS or the locals who hunt deer in your area next to your let? Sounds to me more like the usual suspects dont want you to have a .243 and the others dont want you out lamping near their let?
    Best course is to have a chat with NPWS and GS on first off the issue of you not being nailed for suspected poaching.Which they can only do if you were literally caught inflagrante and off your let.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    HW100S wrote: »
    Good idea.

    NPWS: is that national parks & wildlife service? and is this the same organisation that a wildlife rangers belongs to?

    Yes the wildlife rangers are part of the NPWS.

    Going a foot and actively hunting rabbits and foxs at night on your permissions is not illegal, both the NARGC and the NPWS will agree and confirm this. You are not doing anything illegal. Wether or not you chose to use a rimfire or deer legal centre fire has no legal bearing on the general practice of lamping foxs and rabbits and using a deer legal calibre on foxs, as many do, will not red flag you, in fact the preferred calibre of choice by poachers at one stage was the .22 hornet.

    Many, many lads inculding myself use deer legal calibres to lamp foxs so it is in itself not an issue. When hunters exercise Sec42 that inculde the use of a lamp it is often a requirement of the licence to notify the local Gaurds and Rangers prior to hunting. Some will not agree with me here but if you are uncomfortable then you can certainly give the local Gaurds a ring. If so be confident and firm, telling them that your letting them know you'll be out on Farmers Murphys and McDonald's to night from such and such an hour to end time. Your not asking thier permission, they have no right to stop you once you are doing nothing wrong.

    On the subject of seizure, unless they are arresting you on suspicion of a crime they can not take your guns etc. So again once you work within the regs/laws and common sense there should be no issue.

    A few things obviously NO No's.
    Trespassing.
    Spot lighting protected species (without licence)
    Lamping onto another property
    Shooting from the road
    Shooting within the prohibited distance of roads and around houses (need to look that one up)
    Shooting from a mechanicaly propelled vechile (licence won't be issued for hunting, tried it twice, twice refused)
    Reckless behaviour (this can be a catch all so mind your p's and q's and your shooting practice)

    There's bound to be a few I missed out.

    P.S my latest round of licence applications from the NPWS did throw up a conversation with a department head reference the use of vehicles in which the regs were quoted that is was quite acceptable / legal to lamp rabbits and foxs, just not from a motorized vechile.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭ dodderangler


    Mechanically propelled vehicle such as a quad
    I would’ve thought that would be ok


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  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭ HW100S


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Wildlife act 1976 gives you the bit on authorisation and what may be seized by whom http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1976/act/39/section/72/enacted/en/html#sec72

    I take it ,this came from someone in uniform??

    Who exactly? AGS or the locals who hunt deer in your area next to your let? Sounds to me more like the usual suspects dont want you to have a .243 and the others dont want you out lamping near their let?
    Best course is to have a chat with NPWS and GS on first off the issue of you not being nailed for suspected poaching.Which they can only do if you were literally caught inflagrante and off your let.

    Brilliant information there in wildlife act, fairly well spelled out in black and white.

    A lot of this is coming from a fellow hunter who said he received the information form wild deer Ireland. I know second hand information etc etc but it frustrated the hell out of me when ill informed individuals, who have influence within gun clubs, speak their mind causing others to believe something that is not correct is now the law.
    At least I know now what material to reference when trying to debate this.

    I know this post probably sounds like a pile of s**te but it's not the first time I have encountered this topic.

    A few things obviously NO No's.
    Trespassing.
    Spot lighting protected species (without licence)
    Lamping onto another property
    Shooting from the road
    Shooting within the prohibited distance of roads and around houses (need to look that one up)
    Shooting from a mechanicaly propelled vechile (licence won't be issued for hunting, tried it twice, twice refused)
    Reckless behaviour (this can be a catch all so mind your p's and q's and your shooting practice)
    Agree 100% with you


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    Mechanically propelled vehicle such as a quad
    I would’ve thought that would be ok

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1976/act/39/section/36/enacted/en/html

    Wildlife Act, 1976

    36.—(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in this Act apart from this section but subject to section 42, a person shall not hunt or disturb for the purpose of hunting—

    (a) any protected wild animal by means of a mechanically-propelled vehicle, vessel or aircraft, whether it is being so propelled or is stationary,

    (b) any protected wild bird by means of such a vehicle, vessel or aircraft while it is being so propelled.



    Licence For Use of a Mechanicaly Propelled Vehicle


    https://www.npws.ie/licences/education-and-science/hunt-using-mechanically-propelled-vehicle

    Section 36: To Hunt Using a Mechanically Propelled Vehicle for Educational, Scientific or Other Purposes

    The Minister is empowered, under Section 36(2) of the Wildlife Acts 1976 – 2018, to grant licences to hunt using a mechanically propelled vehicle specifically for ‘Educational, Scientific or Other Purposes’. It is not possible to issue a licence to hunt unprotected animals, such as foxes and rabbits using a mechanically propelled vehicle except for ‘Educational, Scientific or other Purposes’. However you are free to hunt unprotected animals, such as foxes and rabbits, including at night using lamps subject to landowner permission being obtained prior to entering on lands. However no such hunting can be carried out during the day or at night using a mechanically propelled vehicle.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    HW100S,

    Absolutely agree with your comment on the uninformed, I've had this with the bird derogation and Sec 42 use of lamps etc. Now we all get it wrong at some stage, me more often, but some of the bull**** I've seen spouted is down right lies formulated out of ignorance or down right misdirection by arseholes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,569 ✭✭✭ garv123


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1976/act/39/section/36/enacted/en/html

    Wildlife Act, 1976

    36.—(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in this Act apart from this section but subject to section 42, a person shall not hunt or disturb for the purpose of hunting—

    (a) any protected wild animal by means of a mechanically-propelled vehicle, vessel or aircraft, whether it is being so propelled or is stationary,

    (b) any protected wild bird by means of such a vehicle, vessel or aircraft while it is being so propelled.



    Licence For Use of a Mechanicaly Propelled Vehicle

    This is the same bit they use to say lamping from a vehicle is illegal, because part of the definition of hunting is "to search for" but yet plenty people drive around in day light, and use binos to check fields.. so technically if you dont get out of the vehicle/off the quad, its illegal to look for deer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭ dodderangler


    Funny you mention the poaching as I found a deer skin up in the field close to where I shot the fox last night. And this land had plenty of deer on it. Not so much now.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,174 ✭✭✭ J.R.


    HW100S wrote: »
    Good idea.

    NPWS: is that national parks & wildlife service? and is this the same organisation that a wildlife rangers belongs to?

    contact details here

    https://www.npws.ie/about-npws/npws-regional-management/npws-regions-and-dco-county


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    garv123 wrote: »
    This is the same bit they use to say lamping from a vehicle is illegal, because part of the definition of hunting is "to search for" but yet plenty people drive around in day light, and use binos to check fields.. so technically if you dont get out of the vehicle/off the quad, its illegal to look for deer.

    Not quite:

    Wildlife Act, 1976

    Definitions. 2.—(1) In this Act—

    hunt” means stalk, pursue, chase, drive, flush, capture, course, attract, follow, search for, lie in wait for, take, trap or shoot by any means whether with or without dogs, and, except in sections 28 and 29, includes killing in the course of hunting, but does not in this Act include stalking, attracting, searching for or lying in wait for any fauna by an unarmed person solely for the purpose of watching or of taking or making photographic or other pictures, and kindred words shall be construed accordingly;

    While

    Use of lamps, mirrors etc. in hunting prohibited.

    38.—Any person who uses any lamp, light, torch, mirror or other artificial light-reflecting or dazzling device or appliance in hunting any protected wild bird or protected wild animal, otherwise than while either—

    (a) attaching thereto any band, ring, tag or other marking device, or
    (b) hunting for educational or scientific purposes,

    pursuant to and in accordance with a licence granted under this Act by the Minister, shall be guilty of an offence.

    So effectively once you are just 'watching or of taking or making photographic or other pictures, and kindred words shall be construed accordingly;' your okay. Couple this with the best practice stating the obvious:

    4. During transport, firearms must always be stored
    in a case/sleeve, out of sight in a locked vehicle boot. They should not be immediately accessible to the driver or any passenger.
    5. No gun should be loaded with ammunition while travelling to or from a shoot.
    6. Where possible, rifle bolts and shotgun fore ends, pistol top slides and magazines should be removed and kept separately.
    7. A firearm should never be left inside the seating area of a vehicle: whether occupied or unattended.


    .....it would be very hard for a third party to jump to the conclusion that you were 'hunting' from a vehicle.

    On the other hand if you were driving about with guns in the passenger area it would be a little difficult for you to argue against such an accusation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭ The pigeon man


    After reading this I don't think you're doing anything wrong so carry on with your shooting. Don't worry about rangers you are not breaking the law.

    If you are using a fox caller make sure you have a section 35 license. It seems that many hunters aren't aware of the need for this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭ dodderangler


    After reading this I don't think you're doing anything wrong so carry on with your shooting. Don't worry about rangers you are not breaking the law.

    If you are using a fox caller make sure you have a section 35 license. It seems that many hunters aren't aware of the need for this.

    Is that not just for electronic callers? Surely you don’t need a licence to squeak with your hand or even a homemade tenter field


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    BTW Anyone know what the distance is to not be classified as "shooting from" a vechicle unser Irish law?:confused:

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    .....If you are using a fox caller make sure you have a section 35 license. It seems that many hunters aren't aware of the need for this.

    Where exactly is the reg for this?

    Foxs, unlike all wild birds who are protected under the Acts are NOT given protection under the section dealing with the Enforcement of protection of wild animals (other than wild birds). -
    '23.—(1) Subject to subsection (2) hereof, this section applies to any animal which is of a species of fauna specified in the Fifth Schedule to this Act'

    and are not listed on the Fifth Schedule- detailing animals referred to in Section 23.

    Section 35 of the Wildlife Act , deals with-

    'Certain use of scarecrows, decoys birdcalls and calls of wild mammals restricted'.
    In particular the following sections-
    "35.—(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in this Act apart from this section, but subject to section 42, a person shall not—
    (d) use an electrical or other instrument or appliance (including recording apparatus) emitting or imitating birdcalls or the calls of wild mammals for the purpose of hunting a protected wild bird or a protected wild animal which is a mammal.'


    I draw attention to the underlined and bolded wording in sub section d 'protected wild animal . So if the Fox is not listed under the Fifth schedule then they don't come under the protection of the meaning of 'protected wild animal and therefore the use of calls of any kind for fox are not prohibited.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    BTW Anyone know what the distance is to not be classified as "shooting from" a vechicle unser Irish law?:confused:

    As far as I know it does not cover this but once you are not in the vechile, in any sense of the word, for those thinking of the bed of a pick up truck or similar, your covered. Wether or not you can prop yourself up on the bonnet or boot etc I don't know if common sense would evail here from the perspective of an interested party.

    Edited
    Just reading over the Act and to be honest the words 'by means of' , (definition -with the help of; by using ) could be construed as to using a mechcainicly propelled vechile in any way, even that of a rest or to steady yourself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭ The pigeon man


    Unfortunately Cookimonster this has been since amended.

    Section 35 of the Wildife act 1976 states that person shall not;

    (d) use an electrical or other instrument or appliance (including recording apparatus) emitting or imitating birdcalls or the calls of wild mammals for the purpose of hunting a protected wild bird or a protected wild animal which is a mammal.

    The Wildlife (Amendment) Act, 2000 states that section 35 of the Principal Act is hereby amended;

    (iii) by the substitution of the following for paragraph (d):

    “(d) use an electrical or other instrument or appliance (including recording apparatus) emitting sound, for the purpose of hunting any wild bird or any wild animal.”,

    So yes if you want to use a caller to hunt any wild animal or bird you will need a license under section 35 of the wildlife act 1976.

    This means you need a license to use a caller to hunt foxes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,174 ✭✭✭ J.R.


    https://nargc.ie/predator-control-and-the-law/

    NARGC website

    Predator Control And The Law

    By Dr. David Scallan


    Conservation News
    8th September 2015
    Predator Control And The Law
    Posted By: Web Admin 57693 Views
    By Dr. David Scallan



    Introduction

    Predator control has been a well-known part of game management for centuries. For Gun Clubs, the objective is to suppress numerically common species known to be predators of gamebirds and mammals. In most cases, these include fox, grey crow, magpie, grey squirrel, mink and rat. The laws governing predator control, particularly in regard to the specific licences and derogations, are sometimes misunderstood and the legislation often changes. Indeed some of the laws may come as a surprise to some Gun Club members! This article attempts to clarify some of the legalities associated with predator control and provides information on licensing for particular activities.



    Use of fox/crow callers & crow decoys

    Section 35 (1) (d) of the Wildlife Acts 1976 to 2012 states that a person shall not – use an electrical or other instrument or appliance (including recording apparatus) emitting sound, for the purpose of hunting any wild bird or any wild animal. The use of the term “…or other instrument…” obviously does not restrict the definition to electrically operated instruments/appliances only. For example, metal and plastic callers and possibly even polystyrene rubbed against a window could be interpreted as an “instrument or appliance” under the legislation. Calling a fox with one’s mount, however, would be acceptable.



    In effect, this means that it is illegal to use callers for grey crow, magpie and fox. However, Section 35 (4) allows the Minister to grant a licence to a person to use an instrument or appliance emitting sound for the purpose of repelling, scaring or capturing any wild bird or any wild animal for scientific research or for another purpose approved of by the Minister. Note that the legislation refers to “repelling, scaring or capturing” and does not say for the purpose of killing.

    In this context, the wording of the license application is important and the author is aware that licenses have been refused to applicants seeking to use electric callers “to assist in controlling corvids and foxes”. However, the author is aware of applicants being granted a license to “assist in the identification of these species” as part of a predator control programme.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    The Pigeon Man
    Ahhh I see and thank you for that.
    The ever present amendments that they don't seem to publish as a whole Act (not that I can find).

    'the Minister to grant a licence to a person to use an instrument or appliance emitting sound for the purpose of repelling, scaring or capturing any wild bird or any wild animal for scientific research or for another purpose' 

    The Minister is empowered, under Section 36(2) of the Wildlife Acts 1976 – 2018, to grant licences to hunt using a mechanically propelled vehicle specifically for ‘Educational, Scientific or Other Purposes’. It is not possible to issue a licence to hunt unprotected animals, such as foxes and rabbits using a mechanically propelled vehicle except for ‘Educational, Scientific or other Purposes’. 

    I've highlighted 'other Purposes' in the above passages because of the contradictions in the legislation and the licences. I've spoken to the issuing authorities in the NPWS reference the use of vechiles for hunting fox and rabbits to be qouted the same thing -
    'It is not possible to issue a licence to hunt unprotected animals, such as foxes and rabbits using a mechanically propelled vehicle'.

    Yet it clearly states-
    The Minister is empowered,.......to grant licences to hunt using a mechanically propelled vehicle specifically for...... or Other Purposes’..

    So clearly preditor control (foxs) and vermin control (rabbits) are not deemed 'Other Purposes'.

    Has any one being issued with a licence for a fox call?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,712 ✭✭✭ Rows Grower


    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    I'll agree with the topic and the inferance of the threat to deer population, but the article is a sensationalist piece of journalist clap trap.
    The dramatic descriptions ' powerful spotlight lamps were used to confuse and blind them. Powerful vehicles were also being used. are horse manure.
    Anyone who has lamped animals for the purpose of shooting knows that animals are not confused and blinded. You can easily watch animals comfortably go around thier buisness while under the spotlight. For those who may be reading this and are not familiar with the practice. The lamp is used to spot, identify and aid in the aiming of the firearm. A bunny, fox or deer for that matter doesn't start acting all confused and run around in circles blinded by the light. In most cases the light used is red and has little or no effect on the animal. If an animal bolts when a light is put on them it is usually down to the fact that they have been lamped and shot at before and ate now weary of the situation.
    I was out lamping foxes the other night and came across a multitude of rabbits that once we were up wind of them we could walk right past them lamping them as we did. The same night we came across several deer in with the cattle happily grazing away as we swept the field.

    I'm not dismissing the threat to deer but just thought it should be put right to those who are not in the know.

    ..... PS what about all the stalkers who drive Suzuki Jimmeys and the Renault Belingos.... not particularly high powered cars..:o


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    PS what about all the stalkers who drive Suzuki Jimmeys and the Renault Belingos.... not particularly high powered cars..:o

    Because reality is not as interesting as fiction and doesn't sell as many papers.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Urging the public to report armed illegal hunters who are running down wild deer and often bludgeoning them to death in the Irish countryside.

    Holy Fuk! What are these guys?? Cyberdine industries Terminator T 500 models?:eek::eek::eek:Yeah,you'd want to stay well clear of beings who can run at 40 kph,and have enough strength to use a club to smash in a deers skull in with a blunt instrument alright!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,569 ✭✭✭ garv123


    Isn't this the same crowd who are looking for all hunters to do the Hcap? A few former members from the WDAI?


  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭ The pigeon man


    In reply to your question about a license for fox callers Cookimonster I can confirm that the NPWS are issuing them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭ meathstevie


    Mechanically propelled vehicle such as a quad
    I would’ve thought that would be ok

    No, it’s not allowed to use any sort of mechanically propelled vehicle while hunting. Car, tractor, quad,....doesn’t matter.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...sk-951298.html

    .....another poacher spotted in a high powered car!!!


    491035.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,712 ✭✭✭ Rows Grower


    I got a notification for this post on my phone today and had to tap to download the picture, the people I am working for actually asked me for a look at what made me burst out laughing.

    Top class stuff cookimonster, it's one of the funniest post's I ever saw.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    .....another poacher spotted in a high powered car!!!
    Hope someone got the reg.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


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