Random EV thoughts.....

charlieIRL

krissovo wrote: »

It took 5 weeks for my leaf back in June:eek:

No way? Balls.

charlieIRL

Mickeroo wrote: »

Ten working days I thought. Took mine two full weeks to the day.

Mines in 2 weeks tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

tom_tarbucket

What plugin hybrids are available. Only one I’m aware of really is the Mitsubishi Outlander.

KCross

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

What plugin hybrids are available. Only one I’m aware of really is the Mitsubishi Outlander.

Loads of them... these all have a PHEV variant you can buy
Ioniq
Niro
Optima
Golf
Passat
i3
330e
530e
etc

ELM327

Black_Knight wrote: »

Isn't that supposed to be announced this month!?

Yes, and every month since 2017

Black_Knight

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes, and every month since 2017

Building up the tension I see!

Still awaiting IEVOA to release more information "next week"

https://www.irishevowners.ie/ieova-meeting-with-esb-ecars-23-aug-2019/

This is all the information we can provide for now but hope to be able to share some more details early next week.

kanuseeme

KCross wrote: »

Loads of them... these all have a PHEV variant you can buy
Ioniq
Niro
Optima
Golf
Passat
i3
330e
530e
etc

Opel ampera/ volt?

BMW 225e

zg3409

Black_Knight wrote: »

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes, and every month since 2017

Building up the tension I see!

Still awaiting IEVOA to release more information "next week"

https://www.irishevowners.ie/ieova-meeting-with-esb-ecars-23-aug-2019/

This is all the information we can provide for now but hope to be able to share some more details early next week.

https://www.irishevowners.ie/esb-ecars-meeting-23-8-2019-full-report/?fbclid=IwAR0hAkiVvag0Jr3_NnpKKWsJkrcSBhL4_2fLhyfvmKtLXV9WXX2N884Sx2c

No real news. Fees on the way any year now

zg3409

charlieIRL wrote: »

Anyone know how long it takes an SEAI grant to come through when buying a new car? (The 5k grant) Is it any quicker than the 3 weeks quoted? Also how long after it’s approved would it take the garage to have a car ready to go?

There was some talk of all EV car grants on hold until budget was announced. Think I saw it mentioned by some purchasers on facebook. Also there is shortages of some cars like the Niro.

KCross

zg3409 wrote: »

There was some talk of all EV car grants on hold until budget was announced. Think I saw it mentioned by some purchasers on facebook. Also there is shortages of some cars like the Niro.

Thats for cars registered in 2020 AFAIK.
If they have an EV ready to be registered in 2019 they can go ahead and register it and claim the grant.

tom_tarbucket

Black_Knight wrote: »

Building up the tension I see!

Still awaiting IEVOA to release more information "next week"

https://www.irishevowners.ie/ieova-meeting-with-esb-ecars-23-aug-2019/

oh, so the paying for charging for now is only for the 'fast' chargers.
I presume the Type-2 AC Socket 22kW charging stations are NOT considered as fast?

Black_Knight

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

oh, so the paying for charging for now is only for the 'fast' chargers.
I presume the Type-2 AC Socket 22kW charging stations are NOT considered as fast?

Correct

Lumen

Taycan charge curve at Ionity, from 5:51

Charge to 80%: 20 minutes
80%-100%: 30 minutes.

11%: 250kW
22%: 260kW
34%: 200kW
39%: 150kW
60%: 155kW
70%: 160kW
71%: 150kW
75%: 120kW
80%: 90kW
85%: 38kW

Then seems all over the place until 99%.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNSTfh1i_8Y

ELM327

Forgive my ignorance but at 800v why does it not charge much faster that that?
We've seen the model 3 charge at 250kW on 400v and 200kW on 400v at Ionity. For me, incredible as it seems, those charge rates are too slow for what 800v could be.

Old diesel

ELM327 wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but at 800v why does it not charge much faster that that?
We've seen the model 3 charge at 250kW on 400v and 200kW on 400v at Ionity. For me, incredible as it seems, those charge rates are too slow for what 800v could be.

You'd certainly think that it could keep over 200 kw for longer .

Personally I suspect Porsche want to ensure durability and consistant charge speeds during both individual long trips and over the long term into higher mileages.

They would want to avoid scenarios where.

1) you get 350 kw charging at 1st rapid but the car only does 70 kw at 2nd stop.

And

2) avoid Tesla type having to cut back charge speed when car is older .

We could see more power being allowed charging wise if Porsche are happy with data from real world .

Lumen

I don't think anyone outside the industry really understands why the fast charging profiles differ so much between different manufacturers and models. There's a lot of speculation (voltage, cooling etc) but few verifiable facts.

Ultimately I doubt the decision on whether someone buys a Taycan or a top-end Model S is going to come down to how many kW it takes in the top half of the SoC. They'll be chosen mainly for emotional and aesthetic reasons, just like most cars always have, cheap or expensive.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but at 800v why does it not charge much faster that that?
We've seen the model 3 charge at 250kW on 400v and 200kW on 400v at Ionity. For me, incredible as it seems, those charge rates are too slow for what 800v could be.

Their headline figure a few years back was 350kW but then they said in the last year or so that the max it would do for the first version of it would be 250kW and then they would look at 350kW after that.

My guess is the pack they have isnt up to a 350kW rate and maybe they are waiting for a different pack in 2022 or something. Could also be a case of being conservative and waiting for some telemetry data back from production cars and maybe they'll unleash the power OTA later once they see the packs are holding up.

250kW is serious power all the same, although it did drop back to 150kW rather quickly

Lumen

Charging speed can be spun many ways.

For example, while the "0-80% in 20 mins" of the Taycan seems impressive, that's only about 330km WLTP, which is 56% of a Model S Raven (I think), or 52kWh. So to match the Taycan in terms of "km per 20 min of charging" only requires 156kW average, which isn't that much of a challenge.

Efficiency matters.

Alkers

Black_Knight wrote: »

Correct

Are you sure?

I've seen a lot of terminology referring to these as fast chargers, as opposed to the rapid chargers - CCS / CHAdeMo / Fast AC?

charlieIRL

charlieIRL wrote: »

Mines in 2 weeks tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

16 days since I applied and still no word yet (13 working days) Was hoping to have heard by now.

slave1

Back to Hydrogen fuel speculation again...

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/innovation/plan-for-80-hydrogen-fuel-stations-for-ireland-by-2030-1.4026492

Black_Knight

Alkers wrote: »

Are you sure?

I've seen a lot of terminology referring to these as fast chargers, as opposed to the rapid chargers - CCS / CHAdeMo / Fast AC?

Some call the DC chargers "Rapid", and the 22kW AC chargers as "Fast". Some (or most in my experience) call the DC chargers "Fast", and the AC chargers "slow". IMO, they're slow. Taking 3-4 hours to charge my car is not fast.

Dempsey

Car is nagging me for a service

Do I bother with a main dealer eye gouging me or not?

I can do the usuals myself but I'm wondering what a dealer can do that would be worth the stretch?

Black_Knight

Dempsey wrote: »

Car is nagging me for a service

Do I bother with a main dealer eye gouging me or not?

I can do the usuals myself but I'm wondering what a dealer can do that would be worth the stretch?

Is it still under warranty? If so, go dealer.
Your call otherwise.

Dempsey

Black_Knight wrote: »

Is it still under warranty? If so, go dealer.
Your call otherwise.

Yea, still under warranty

Do you get any decent feedback on the battery health / hi voltage components with these inspections?

Looks more like €120 I should keep in my pocket

unkel

slave1 wrote: »

Back to Hydrogen fuel speculation again...

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/innovation/plan-for-80-hydrogen-fuel-stations-for-ireland-by-2030-1.4026492

Hydrogen cars will never happen. Surely that was clear for all to see at least 5 years ago? The only future for hydrogen that I can see is that we can produce it with excess renewable energy to be used to generate electricity at peak demand time, or for powering ships or other incredibly power hungry machines

Shefwedfan

slave1 wrote: »

Back to Hydrogen fuel speculation again...

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/innovation/plan-for-80-hydrogen-fuel-stations-for-ireland-by-2030-1.4026492

Never seen a more crooked shower of companies involved

BOC Gases, Bord Gáis Energy, Toyota Ireland, CIÉ Group, Hyundai Ireland

Who would even want to go near that group

ELM327

All of whom have inherent bias

KCross

I dont see alot wrong with the article in the context of what they are targeting...

...confirmed that it will initially be aimed at “captive” fleets, whereby vehicles can be refuelled at a central depot. “It’s a central hub model, for now, rather than a distributed network. Our focus is on captive fleets, and Dublin Bus and CIÉ as a whole are both part of the group, and contributing to the discussions.

Hydrogen starts to make sense for captive commercial fleets.

The grid is supposed to be going towards a much higher percentage of renewables which means there could, in time, be excess energy available which you can then use to generate hydrogen.

Certainly a hydrogen fueled Dublin bus is going to be better than what we have right now. Its really down to how the hydrogen is generated as to whether its worth doing or not.

For cars, cant see hydrogen working. The cost of putting hydrogen stations all over the country is prohibitive. They quoted €2m per station.... that aint going to happen by 2030!

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Hydrogen starts to make sense for captive commercial fleets.

China has about 500,000 BEV buses (and growing very quickly) and about 1,000 hydrogen buses, the latter mostly trials promoted by some heavily invested stakeholders like Toyota

Buses need to go BEV, all R&D into hydrogen for road transport is a complete waste of money

Hydrogen fuelled back up electricity power plants (for when a jurisdiction is low on renewables and low on interconnector import), that is the main future of hydrogen

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

I dont see alot wrong with the article in the context of what they are targeting...

...confirmed that it will initially be aimed at “captive” fleets, whereby vehicles can be refuelled at a central depot. “It’s a central hub model, for now, rather than a distributed network. Our focus is on captive fleets, and Dublin Bus and CIÉ as a whole are both part of the group, and contributing to the discussions.

Hydrogen starts to make sense for captive commercial fleets.

The grid is supposed to be going towards a much higher percentage of renewables which means there could, in time, be excess energy available which you can then use to generate hydrogen.

Certainly a hydrogen fueled Dublin bus is going to be better than what we have right now. Its really down to how the hydrogen is generated as to whether its worth doing or not.

For cars, cant see hydrogen working. The cost of putting hydrogen stations all over the country is prohibitive. They quoted €2m per station.... that aint going to happen by 2030!

The only way hydrgoen works is for large vehicles that only refuel at depots.


Some of these already use lpg/cng only vehicles.


However hydrogen is more expensive than fossil fuel to produce, it is still a fossil fuel, and the vehicles are more expensive.
I'd love a mirai but it doesnt make sense here.


Actually, I'd love a mirai with a 30kWh battery pack and a plug.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

China has about 500,000 BEV buses (and growing very quickly) and about 1,000 hydrogen buses, the latter mostly trials promoted by some heavily invested stakeholders like Toyota

Buses need to go BEV, all R&D into hydrogen for road transport is a complete waste of money

China is actually backing Hydrogen. They're pulling BEV susidies and promoting Hydrogen so I wouldnt use them as a good example of Hydrogen being a dead end. If China decides something, that means its going to happen!

There will be more BEV in the short-medium term because thats available tech today but they see Hydrogen as the long term future.

unkel wrote: »

Hydrogen fuelled back up electricity power plants (for when a jurisdiction is low on renewables and low on interconnector import), that is the main future of hydrogen

If you see it having a future for that, no reason why it cant also feed commercial vehicles like that article talks about.

Think about an inter city bus doing Cork-Dublin several times a day.... BEV wont cut it. A hydrogen pump at both ends will.

ELM327 wrote: »

The only way hydrgoen works is for large vehicles that only refuel at depots.

Thats basically what I'm agreeing with in the article and thats what they are targeting. I dont think its unreasonable at all if they can generate the hydrogen with renewables.... which very much remains to be seen.

ELM327 wrote: »

However hydrogen is more expensive than fossil fuel to produce, it is still a fossil fuel, and the vehicles are more expensive.

How is Hydrogen a fossil fuel?

It is a byproduct of oil refining but that's not the only way to generate it. It's not in itself a fossil fuel.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

How is Hydrogen a fossil fuel?

It is a byproduct of oil refining but that's not the only way to generate it. It's not in itself a fossil fuel.

Hydrogen is a fossil fuel currently because that is how it generated for any commercial applications.
It uses gas (fossil fuel) to electrolize water.
From memory you need around 2.5-3kWh of energy to produce 1kWh of hydrogen.
The mirai struggles to get 40mpge

unkel

KCross wrote: »

If China decides something, that means its going to happen!

You can say that alright!

Not sure I've seen any recent info on China backing buses to go hydrogen (instead of BEV) on a large scale for buses though. But you have a point in long range buses used in poor countries like China and Ireland where there isn't any better public transport infrastructure :pac:

ELM327 wrote: »

Hydrogen is a fossil fuel currently because that is how it generated for any commercial applications.
It uses gas (fossil fuel) to electrolize water.
From memory you need around 2.5-3kWh of energy to produce 1kWh of hydrogen.

This is it, hydrogen is currently only really produced in pilot schemes. The future is that it will be generated for free with excess renewable electricity production that would otherwise have gone to waste (zero value electricity)

kanuseeme

95% of hydrogen is produced from fossil fuel (methane) using steam and a catalyst, as you said producing it from water is not efficient

There is a lot of problems with Hydrogen, energy density and trying to stop the stuff escaping and blowing up airships/cars etc.

KCross

kanuseeme wrote: »

There is a lot of problems with Hydrogen, energy density and trying to stop the stuff escaping and blowing up airships/cars etc.

Minor detail!

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Not sure I've seen any recent info on China backing buses to go hydrogen (instead of BEV) on a large scale for buses though. But you have a point in long range buses used in poor countries like China and Ireland where there isn't any better public transport infrastructure :pac:

The China references are in this post...
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110731376&postcount=43


We have to think as well that Hydrogen is at least a decade away so looking at current products and processes is somewhat irrelevant. It hasnt matured yet.

If you looked back 10 years you wouldnt be betting on BEV either! We have no Hydrogen vehicles in the country today, we didnt have any BEV's 10 years ago, so who knows what 2030 will look like!

I think BEV and Hydrogen will both have a future. Its not a one or the other thing.

Old diesel

What's the range of an electric coach?????.

On a Dublin to Cork route you can have different buses coming and going.

So a coach pulls into Cork to charge after working it's route and one already charged lines up to take the passengers on next leg back to Dublin.

Old diesel

Old diesel wrote: »

What's the range of an electric coach?????.

On a Dublin to Cork route you can have different buses coming and going.

So a coach pulls into Cork to charge after working it's route and one already charged lines up to take the passengers on next leg back to Dublin.

The coaches normally stop for a break at Urlingford etc for maybe 20 minutes on longer routes. Plenty of time to 1MW charge extra range during a break like that. Another 300 kWh charged in 20 minutes for that extra 300 kilometers.

ELM327

samih wrote: »

The coaches normally stop for a break at Urlingford etc for maybe 20 minutes on longer routes. Plenty of time to 1MW charge extra range during a break like that. Another 300 kWh charged in 20 minutes for that extra 300 kilometers.

This is a great use case for why Hydrogen is better for buses.
Centrally fuelled and must be cheaper than setting up a couple of 1MW chargers

Water John

TMK buses no longer stop in Urlingford, toilet on board basically, motorway all the way.
Charged Leaf 30 at fast charger in Fermoy today. Hooked on about 10 mins when BMW hybrid arrives, told her I'd be about 10 mins more. She went off to the shop.
Zoe arrives, a few mins later, she asks and I said I'd be disconnecting, (I was over 90% at that point). I hoped to be out and give the ZOE my place and as I did so the BMW owner arrived back. Felt sorry for the ZOE as the BMW was simply freeloading.
Maybe they both can charge?

Black_Knight

Water John wrote: »

TMK buses no longer stop in Urlingford, toilet on board basically, motorway all the way.
Charged Leaf 30 at fast charger in Fermoy today. Hooked on about 10 mins when BMW hybrid arrives, told her I'd be about 10 mins more. She went off to the shop.
Zoe arrives, a few mins later, she asks and I said I'd be disconnecting, (I was over 90% at that point). I hoped to be out and give the ZOE my place and as I did so the BMW owner arrived back. Felt sorry for the ZOE as the BMW was simply freeloading.
Maybe they both can charge?

BMW on CCS, Zoe on type 2

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

This is a great use case for why Hydrogen is better for buses.
Centrally fuelled and must be cheaper than setting up a couple of 1MW chargers

I don't know about the pricing but 300 km of extra range in 20 minutes sounds great. That would be enough to do Dublin-Cork-Dublin with just 20 minutes of charging in Cork. And coaches do stop for 30+ minutes at the time at the bus terminals.

And the cost of 300 kWh is what 30 quid or less at wholesale prices. If a coach uses (I'm guessing) 25-30 lilters/100 km of diesel that's 150-200 quid for the fuel for a return trip vs. 60 on electricity. And who knows how much for H2.

ELM327

samih wrote: »

I don't know about the pricing but 300 km of extra range in 20 minutes sounds great. That would be enough to do Dublin-Cork-Dublin with just 20 minutes of charging in Cork. And coaches do stop for 30+ minutes at the time at the bus terminals.

And the cost of 300 kWh is what 30 quid or less at wholesale prices. If a coach uses (I'm guessing) 25-30 lilters/100 km of diesel that's 150-200 quid for the fuel for a return trip vs. 60 on electricity. And who knows how much for H2.

It's more the cost of supply infrastructure for 1mw

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

It's more the cost of supply infrastructure for 1mw

And you can imagine 10+ buses pulling into an MSA looking for a connection. It wouldnt work in reality.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

And you can imagine 10+ buses pulling into an MSA looking for a connection. It wouldnt work in reality.

It used to be just one at the time when they did stop at Urlingford on the Cork route. Would be simple enough stagger the coaches each to have their designated slots.

Water John

The Cork - Dublin travels on the half hour and the Dublin- Cork on the hour, AFAIK.

kanuseeme

Water John wrote: »

The Cork - Dublin travels on the half hour and the Dublin- Cork on the hour, AFAIK.

Two steps forward, one step back.:D

Is there any progress on wireless charging?

If a motorway had say a 20 km stretch with such a concept, that could charge or supply power to a EV bus or car.

Probably too expensive.

September1

Probably for scheduled services it would make sense to have replaceable batteries for buses, as usually cities have limited number of bus stations. It would also mean that batteries would not have requirement to charge quickly, so they could choose chemistry and design that maximizes capacity.

The Black Oil

Non-EV owner here. What's considered hogging? I was at an event in Merrion Square recently. Saw a Leaf and i3 (with company branding on its side) charging. I was out two hours later, Leaf was gone. There an auld fella was hooking up his Zoe where the Leaf had been. i3 was still there.