Random EV thoughts.....

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993940#Comment_120993940

The Panamera looks a fair bit like a Taycan to be fair

I suspect there's some confusion over what defines an EV. There could be 500 BEVs onboard but there's no mention of PHEVs or Hybrids

Whether these would be considered an EV is somewhat open to interpretation, if we're in a Toyota ad then they're magic EVs that don't need to be refueled, whereas many people here would probably say they aren't an EV

Anyway, there is the possibility that there were several hybrids around the ship which were included in the original 500 EV estimate and may (or may not) have contributed to the fire

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994162#Comment_120994162

I've someone on my social media insisting that they've taken an image of a Taycan and matched it up perfectly to the car in the photo.

However it's probably not hugely important.

The following facts imply that this isn't the epicentre of the fire.....

1) someone was actually able to get in close enough to take the photos of the Porsches.

2) the fact we can guess the model of the Porsche.

I suspect that at the actual location of the fire on the ship.

1) you physically can't get in there and get a photo safely.

2) the vehicles are probably damaged so badly you can hardly see they were vehicles once. Never mind that they are Porsches.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994374#Comment_120994374

Absolutely agree 100% that any cars at the epicenter of the fire are nothing more than a pile of slag at this point

I'm more concerned about how the number of EVs on board seems to change every 5 mins, and I think the different interpretations of what an EV is is probably not helping this

the_amazing_raisin

Bye bye I Pace, or not, kind of hard to tell from the article exactly what the plan is

https://www.electrive.com/2023/08/18/jaguar-i-pace-jlr-scraps-only-ev-model-so-far/

There was an absolutely brilliant typo in the first line which said JLR was aiming to be all EV by 2925 (not 2025 as it says now)

I honestly thought the author was being ironic and saying JLR were being extremely slow on EV uptake

JohnC.

This could cause some..."robust debate" at a charging station.

It's in China, so it won't bother the local ESB hub. It takes up to 150kW with 1 or 230kW with both.

https://carnewschina.com/2023/08/13/byds-denza-n7-driving-review-dual-charging-suv-can-cause-violence-at-the-charging-station/

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121002797#Comment_121002797

Why???

I like the idea of charging ports on both sides as an option, but seriously, just installing more powerful chargers seems a much smarter option

Busman Paddy Lasty

Are they GBT connectors though? A modified CHAdeMO.

European solution of 800V CCS can do that speed with the one cable.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121003079#Comment_121003079

Yes true enough, probably not a CCS plug

GBT can still support up to 1000V though

eagerv

Why China is banning Teslas.

https://youtu.be/eCzU5BF-110

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121002797#Comment_121002797

I believe some EV busses have 2 x ccs right next to each other. I am not sure if that applies to Athlone or new Dublin EV busses, but it's already a thing in Europe. Be fun looking at them taking up two ionity spots!

wassie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121003904#Comment_121003904

China’s been doing that for over two years after they introduced automobile data protection measures introduced in 2021. They know what their cars are capable of.

Chinese have good form of their own, especially with regard to mobile phones. Same reason why Huawei has been banned in many western countries.

embraer170

My dad is at an age when he definitely shouldn’t driving but I also can’t force him off the road.

He wants to replace his 20 year old Toyota banger.. It has to be automatic (like his current car) and cheap since I don’t think it will be driven for more than a year or two (if even). Very little weekly mileage, so the age / car totally mileage really doesn’t matter.

Nissan Leaf, an old Ioniq or something else?

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121027991#Comment_121027991

Would he remember to charge it? I had terrible trouble with my late father leaving lights on etc. Very little out there that would suit him unfortunately, would the Toyota not see him out for another few years, would he drive anything else? Change is a huge deal at that age.

embraer170

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121028026#Comment_121028026

Yeah, charging it will be fine for him. He’s used to technology and uses an iPad, flies a drone etc.

The Avensis is 21 years old at this stage and even he has now accepted its time for sone kind of change. I’ve been saying it for years.

I’m just wondering what would be the least dangerous for him and other road users. Leaf, Ioniq, something else in the sub €12k range? An e-up might be ideal but is too expensive for what it is.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121028318#Comment_121028318

I'm not sure I get the concern, if he's able to fly and keep sight of a drone then he should be physically able to drive a car

Nevertheless, I can see the appeal of something simpler that lets him focus on the road and not mess with gear changes, etc

I'd say the Ioniq is the better option, it's got more updated safety systems than the Leaf

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121028318#Comment_121028318

If you're suggesting a budget of €12k, then I presume range is not important? Does he ever need to travel beyond the range of the car and require public charging? If you answer both questions with no, an outlier choice would be a Renault Fluence Z.E. It is similar in size as the Avensis, is mighty comfortable to be in and drive and is relatively slow, a car made for gentle and relaxed driving. It also has a 4 star Euro NCAP safety rating, which is pretty good for a car that came out in 2011

zg3409

Hot persuit...

AndyBoBandy

Saw one of the new Toyota Prius’ today in dark grey…. It’s a very pretty car.

it’s a PHEV isn’t it?

DaveyDave

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121034710#Comment_121034710

They are indeed, €46,000 plus delivery. 223hp so at least they aren't gutless like previous models which were only made worse being driven by slow taxi drivers.

Class looking car. I've admittedly liked the look of the previous Prius models but this one is a big upgrade. Not a fan of the interiors though.

I don't understand the pricing of PHEVs being in line with EVs.

Unrelated but I saw a base spec MG4 which looks awful without the rear spoiler.

unkel

Good looking car for sure, but insane price. You can have a Tesla Model Y for that. In every way vastly superior. Toyota is in deep ****. Without a bail out (which might prove too expensive for the Japanese government), it could be end of story for what recently was the biggest car maker in the world.

sk8board

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121036175#Comment_121036175

You’ve been predicting that for 6-8yrs though, and the reality has always been the opposite - Toyotas numbers, margins and profits are still immense, and still growing.

sure it’s like turning an oil tanker, but that doesn’t mean it can’t turn - and outside of Europe and maybe one or two other places, their hybrid cars will lead in sales for many decades. Predicting them to fail or needing a government bail out is simply vastly wide of the mark.

it’s akin to me replying to you with “if Toyota can perfect their solid state battery research, it’s game over for tesla and all those legacy Bev manufacturers with their old fashioned batteries”

here’s 2022:

https://www.factorywarrantylist.com/toyota-worldwide-sales.html#:~:text=Toyota%20worldwide%20sales%20reached%20over,in%20the%20cost%20of%20manufacturing.

kanuseeme

Toyota don't care about anything other than their self charging cars, look at the rav 4, 44000 for the hybrid, another 10000 for an extra 16 kwh battery and a socket.

The BZ is extremely bad value, compared to anything else, only thing it has going for it is a brand name and an exceptional warranty.

Its sales here, were very good for what it is, just 50 cars behind the model 3.

I think Toyotas game is just milk the self charging hybrids, when sales decrease, start on the phevs, and finally the full battery, all the time fingers crossed for hydrogen.

unkel

@sk8board - "You’ve been predicting that for 6-8yrs "

You're giving me too much credit 😂

I've been predicting it for a year or two, I've seen it coming, it's just a matter of time. And their own stories about hydrogen / fuel cell cars and solid state batteries are nothing but vapourware.

But we shall see. I would bet serious money that within 3 years Toyota isn't in the top 3 of global number of car sales anymore. Say over H2 2026 sales. Bet between you and me for €1000? But no, I guess (unlike me) you won't put your money where your mouth is and accept that bet 😉

sk8board

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121037552#Comment_121037552

So is it a government bailout, or ‘not in the top 3’ 🥱.

don’t demean yourself with meaningless bets with internet strangers.

It’s a discussion site - we’re discussing.

sk8board

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121037275#Comment_121037275

I think you’re right. Then comments here would make you think Toyota doesn’t have a strategy for the future direction of car sales. The comments also very wrongly sssume that ‘the world’ is moving to electric, which is absolutely not the case. The majority of the world will be lapping up hybrids for decades, while they figure out their infrastructure.

v interesting that the BZ is similar sales numbers to the m3 - probably toyota drivers staying within the brand.

unkel

@sk8board - "So is it a government bailout, or ‘not in the top 3’ 🥱."

Was a safe bet, near guaranteed win for me ;-)

Hard to put a time line on it, that's why I am careful about doing so and always have been. I never said Toyota would need a bailout in 3 years. Their decline has already started though and it will spiral down.

I guess if you don't want to bet with me it comes down to honour only. We will have to patiently wait and see who will deserve the honour here. You or me.

the_amazing_raisin

Toyota seem to be taking the long term strategy and betting on solid state batteries to give them an EV experience similar to a petrol car

However there's a ton of holes in that strategy, since they'll need to scale up production very rapidly if they're aiming for mass market

There doesn't seem to be any news of Toyota making deals for battery factories or mining deals, so it would seem they're a few years away from mass production

Even then, you need a charging network to support delivering 1000km of range in 15 mins. Don't think Ecars will be at that level anytime soon so will Toyota invest in their own network, or partner into Ionity or something?

In the meantime, they'll probably do what most car companies do which is buy their way into a market. I think they're already doing this in China and I wouldn't be surprised if they started shipping Chinese made EVs to Europe and the US rebadged as Toyota

And I wouldn't be surprised if the old protectionism drum gets a few bangs. There's already talk in the EU about slapping anti dumping tariffs on Chinese made EVs, and the US has effectively forced out the competition through the IRA (a different kind of kneecapping)

Nothing screams "vote for me" like protecting your domestic car industry

liamog

To me the batteries in the car are a commodity item, we've seen it with Tesla using batteries from Panasonic, CATL, and BYD. Similarly other manufacturers jumping between LG Chem, SK Innovation and other suppliers.

It's the rest of the EV drivetrain that manufacturers need to build up experience with and to package into an overall product. Toyota waiting for the solid state battery means they aren't gaining the real world experience that the Hyundai/Kia's of the world are.

I think when solid state batteries hit mass market we won't see a competitive advantage for any single manufacturer.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121039262#Comment_121039262

I agree, batteries are batteries and I don't really see anyone beyond the die hard EV nerds caring beyond the capacity and charging speed

Solid state might (or might not) be a game changer in the long run if they can get battery costs down significantly. But there's a lot of road from hitting the market to becoming cost competitive, and they're not even on the market yet

They've yet to even reach square 1 so to speak

And I absolutely agree that Toyota are missing valuable experience. You can see it with the BZ range, there's several issues there that other manufacturers have already gotten past

Again, I think their strategy is to just buy in the expertise when they need it, they probably have deep enough pockets to do it

I think they're in for a shock on the materials and production side though unless they start locking in prices soon

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121038576#Comment_121038576

The cost savings of driving an EV versus Hybrid or diesel may see the ordinary motorist switching sooner than expected. I believe EV mopeds are crazy popular in poorer or Chinese countries, meaning little new sales of petrol versions. Similar may happen in other countries for vehicles, especially in African countries with no oil industry. Tuc tuc style EVs may be their poor man's EV, with possibly petrol or diesel for non local commuting. Remember many areas have home electricity which is fine for local use. Even generators roadside or in the boot could be a stop gap for odd long trip. Tesla owners in Australia funded some diesel powered Tesla chargers for remote areas. The Africans can be very innovative along with indian, Chinese etc and if EVs are soon cheaper than ICE to buy brand new then the tide may turn.

I have seen the future and most car manufacturers including Toyota I think see the future. Most car manufacturers have already stopped all new investment in engines instead looking at how they can dip a toe into EV while pushing their old technology. I expect Toyota have done some maths, whether their gamble will win or hot is another matter. You could argue that no one with a legacy staff, manufacturing lines and systems can really move quick enough to keep profitable compared to the likes of Tesla with none of those overheads and union push back.