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Woman charged with manslaughter because her unborn baby died after she was shot

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    #32
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Of course race is an issue here. Does anyone really believe a middle class white woman would have been treated this way?


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    #33
    gibgodsman
    Registered Users Posts: 564 ✭✭✭gibgodsman


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Of course race is an issue here. Does anyone really believe a middle class white woman would have been treated this way?

    Would a Middle Class White Woman have been instigating and fighting whilst pregnant? I don't think its about race, I think its about a stupid person coming up against a stupid country with stupid laws


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    #34
    FunLover18
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    gibgodsman wrote: »
    Would a Middle Class White Woman have been instigating and fighting whilst pregnant? I don't think its about race, I think its about a stupid person coming up against a stupid country with stupid laws

    You might want to reword your first sentence as it looks like you do think it's about race. Not accusing you, just saying it doesn't read very well.

    Edit: agree with the last sentence though.


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    #35
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    Alabama is like something from a dystopian novel.


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    #36
    mad muffin
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭mad muffin


    So don’t commit violent crimes in Alabama. Cause if you do… expect biblical style justice.


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    #37
    Iscreamkone
    Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭Iscreamkone


    I didn't think that you could murder/manslaughter an unborn?


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    #38
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Wow


    Straight to the colour card!

    Living up to username seems to be a thing these days on boards.

    It's actually quite an important point to make. It's the states, there's huge racial issues and then we have Alabama going that bit further.


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    #39
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    gibgodsman wrote: »
    Would a Middle Class White Woman have been instigating and fighting whilst pregnant?

    Based on your typical news, white middle class women don't do brawls or fights, we have episodes or meltdowns instead.


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    #40
    Iscreamkone
    Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭Iscreamkone


    strandroad wrote: »
    Based on your typical news, white middle class women don't do brawls or fights, we have episodes or meltdowns instead.

    Cough, Aisling Thompson, cough!


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    #41
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,130 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    What's next? Pregnant women who get in car accidents charged with a crime? Those who drink or take drugs while pregnant? Those who can't prove their miscarriage occured naturally? Seems like that's the way it's going in these backwards states

    And let's not pretend it's just some crazy American thing. There are people on this site who think that women who have abortions should be charged with murder and/or put to death ffs


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    #42
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    FYI... Responsible for bringing charges are District Attorney, Lynneice Washington, the first African-American female district attorney in the state (but is currently out of the country) and Chief Assistant District Attorney Valerie Hicks Powe… who is also black. As it turns out Jones might not be prosecuted in unborn baby’s death.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #43
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Of course race is an issue here. Does anyone really believe a middle class white woman would have been treated this way?

    I see the people responsible for bringing these charges are both female and both black. So that’s put that to bed.


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    #44
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    What's next? Pregnant women who get in car accidents charged with a crime? Those who drink or take drugs while pregnant? Those who can't prove their miscarriage occured naturally? Seems like that's the way it's going in these backwards states

    And let's not pretend it's just some crazy American thing. There are people on this site who think that women who have abortions should be charged with murder and/or put to death ffs

    Pro life people believe abortionists should be charged with murder, not the mothers who are victims themselves.


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    #45
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    I can totally accept that somebody might fire a gun in self-defence. I’ve no issue with that at all. But the shooter does have some degree of control over where they shoot. The aggressor has no influence over that. Crazy charge.


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    #46
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    I can totally accept that somebody might fire a gun in self-defence. I’ve no issue with that at all. But the shooter does have some degree of control over where they shoot. The aggressor has no influence over that. Crazy charge.

    In the US you can own a firearm and need absolutely no firearms training or skill or practice or anything like that.
    It’s perfectly normal for women to carry a gun in their handbag for protection, self defense etc.
    She was in fear of her life, she probably never even pointed the gun at anyone before. It’s a wonder she even hit the target.


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    #47
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    splinter65 wrote: »
    In the US you can own a firearm and need absolutely no firearms training or skill or practice or anything like that.
    It’s perfectly normal for women to carry a gun in their handbag for protection, self defense etc.
    She was in fear of her life, she probably never even pointed the gun at anyone before. It’s a wonder she even hit the target.

    Sure. I still don’t believe that makes person you’re shooting at responsible for where the bullet goes. Self-defence should go as far as the person practicing self-defence not being charged with anything if it’s ascertained that using self-defence was reasonable in the circumstances.


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    #48
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Pro life people believe abortionists should be charged with murder, not the mothers who are victims themselves.

    'Abortionists'.

    Piss off.


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    #49
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Iscreamkone wrote: »
    I didn't think that you could murder/manslaughter an unborn?

    Depends on the state but yeah, good few examples of it, most notably Scott Peterson who was found guilty of the second-degree murder of his unborn child back in 2004 after their body was found on the shore of San Francisco Bay, the day before the body of his 26-year-old wife (Laci) was found. She was seven months pregnant when she went missing.


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    #50
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Faugheen wrote: »
    'Abortionists'.

    Piss off.

    How else do you describe someone who does abortions for a living?


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    #51
    Reati
    Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭Reati


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I think what he was referring to, although phrased badly, is that you could base the assumption the woman is black simply based on the nonsense of the headline and the charges against her.

    People can argue all they want, but the odds of a white woman being charged with the same thing in that place are very, very low.

    Indeed, even the head of the women's rights group there said something simular. She even said... Black.

    “Today, Marshae Jones is being charged with manslaughter for being pregnant and getting shot while engaging in an altercation with a person who had a gun. Tomorrow, it will be another black woman , maybe for having a drink while pregnant. And after that, another, for not obtaining adequate prenatal care,” Reyes said.


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    #52
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Pro life people believe abortionists should be charged with murder, not the mothers who are victims themselves.

    Some prolife people may say they don't want the women themselves jailed, but the reality in places where abortion is actually illegal is that it's not unusual to punish the woman as much or more than the doctors, who often just get a fine.

    The politics of miscarriage

    El Salvador: the women jailed for miscarriages

    And who else is responsible for an abortion where the woman herself has sourced and ordered abortion pills over the Internet without a doctor's involvement?


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    #53
    gimli2112
    Registered Users Posts: 13,407 ✭✭✭✭gimli2112


    Reading the headline you just knew it was some backward misogynistic racist state, yup.


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    #54
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    gimli2112 wrote: »
    Reading the headline you just knew it was some backward misogynistic racist state, yup.

    The two people responsible for bringing charges against the girl in question are both women and both black so your just plain WRONG there....


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    #55
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    splinter65 wrote: »
    The two people responsible for bringing charges against the girl in question are both women and both black so your just plain WRONG there....


    Is that actually the case, or was the question of whether she should be charged put to a grand jury of Alabama citizens, which concluded that she be charged with manslaughter?

    The statement from the police officer who dealt with the original event suggests he is fully in favour of charging her:
    “The investigation showed that the only true victim in this was the unborn baby,’’ Pleasant Grove police Lt. Danny Reid said at the time of the shooting. “It was the mother of the child who initiated and continued the fight which resulted in the death of her own unborn baby.”
    ...

    "Let’s not lose sight that the unborn baby is the victim here,’’ Reid said. “She had no choice in being brought unnecessarily into a fight where she was relying on her mother for protection."

    whereas the District Attorney's office is only saying
    "The fact that this tragedy was 100 percent preventable makes this case even more disheartening," the statement said. "While the Grand Jury has had its say, our office is in the process of evaluating this case and has not yet made a determination about whether to prosecute it as a manslaughter case, reduce it to a lesser charge or not to prosecute it."

    It is still unclear who actually filed the indictment to charge the shooting victim with manslaughter.


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    #56
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    From what I’ve read of this story, it was the pregnant woman who initiated the physical conflict which escalated to the point where she was shot in self defence by the other woman.

    If this is true then she should absolutely be prosecuted. For any parent it’s inexcusable to endanger your child that way. It would be no different than if she intentionally drove her car into a wall while pregnant killing the baby.

    Obviously the key question here is whether or not her physical transgressions reached the threshold where deadly force was necessary. Most articles have been quite light on details on this. The fact that charges were dropped against the other woman says that that threshold was probably reached. (Otherwise why would the charges be dropped. There is no other concievable justification.) I think articles are being light on this detail because the standard narrative here is that this woman is a victim of the State of Alabama when the only victim here to any looking at this logically is the unborn child that was killed.


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    #57
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Actually if you took the time to either think about it or ask me why I said I assumed she was black, was based on the fact she's a black Birmingham Alabama resident, now if she were white this would not have happened. I suggest you research the area and it's civil rights history.... and oh yeah try and be a little less 'triggered'.

    What evidence do you have that the decision to prosecute this woman was motivated by racial prejudice? Other than your own conjecture of course.


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    #58
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    splinter65 wrote: »
    How else do you describe someone who does abortions for a living?

    A terminator?


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    #59
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    strandroad wrote: »
    I did. She came to the brawl unarmed. I don't think shooting someone in the stomach is an appropriate defence against fists and nails; clearly Alabama judiciary disagrees.

    You don’t have to be armed to be a deadly threat to another person.

    It ultimately comes down to whether or not the other person is in fear for their life. This is why in most jurisdictions threatening someone or putting them in fear of being assaulted is still legal assault even if there is’nt physical contact.

    From what we know of the case this woman was beating up another woman. If the woman being beat up was in fear for her life she had the right to defend herself.


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    #60
    jhegarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    I can totally accept that somebody might fire a gun in self-defence. I’ve no issue with that at all. But the shooter does have some degree of control over where they shoot. The aggressor has no influence over that. Crazy charge.

    That's how the felony murder law works.

    If I rob a bank and there is a gun fight I am responsible for everyone who dies, even I didn't shoot them.

    Even the getaway driver sitting outside will be guilt for the death of someone the security guard kills while trying to hit the other robbers.


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    #61
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Of course race is an issue here. Does anyone really believe a middle class white woman would have been treated this way?

    Em, okay, alot of people on here claiming this case is racially motivated policing in the “evil backward deep south”.

    None of you have an iota of evidence for this assertion. You’re all thinking “black, Alabama, racism” and it’s pretty disgusting. First of all it’s a myth that in general black people are unfairly treated by police in America. Statistics show they’re being shot in precisely the proportions that are committing crimes, which happens to be more than white folk. That’s not the fault of the police. Most of these former Jim Crow states have come dramatically far on racial issues.

    You can’t just blame every percieved racial disparity on actual racial prejudice, there are a multiplicity of reasons for disparities between racial groups, one reason is the massive rate of single motherhood in the black community. Again, if anyone has evidence of racial bias in this woman’s being charged, by all means bring it forth.


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