Greyhound culling

Choc Chip · 01-07-2019 1:52pm

Does anyone have a link to the IGB package of proposed reforms?

I've just seen the irish times article (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/minister-seeks-to-ringfence-funding-for-greyhound-welfare-1.3940674) and I can't see anything in that which talks about reducing the number of dogs bred..

If that's right and all it contains are some vague promises about "increasing" supports without any actual numbers, I think I will actually lose my mind.

I do see this: "It will also look at strengthening traceability provisions, with the aim of devising a traceability model" which seems a strange proposal since existing mandatory microchipping legislation and a spreadsheet would surely have provided a model for them if they started getting serious about applying the rules.

01-07-2019 2:01pm

Latatian wrote: »

Is there anywhere to watch the documentary online without downloading the app?

RTE player is only playing ads, then stopping.

https://www.facebook.com/banbloodsports/videos/vb.463547953760768/874431559576683/?type=2&theater

01-07-2019 4:32pm

Choc Chip wrote: »

Does anyone have a link to the IGB package of proposed reforms?

I've just seen the irish times article (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/minister-seeks-to-ringfence-funding-for-greyhound-welfare-1.3940674) and I can't see anything in that which talks about reducing the number of dogs bred..

If that's right and all it contains are some vague promises about "increasing" supports without any actual numbers, I think I will actually lose my mind.

I do see this: "It will also look at strengthening traceability provisions, with the aim of devising a traceability model" which seems a strange proposal since existing mandatory microchipping legislation and a spreadsheet would surely have provided a model for them if they started getting serious about applying the rules.

It’s on IGB website

“IRISH GREYHOUND BOARD STATEMENT: 28TH JUNE, 2019
IGB

Following a special meeting of the Board of the Irish Greyhound Board today, the Board again condemned the illegal practices outlined in the Prime Time Investigates programme, broadcast on the 26th of June, 2019.

In the short term, the Board has immediately approved the following range of measures:

* Introduction of a greyhound injury support scheme to provide financial assistance to aid injured greyhounds to continue with a healthy life.

* Extending and increasing support under the IGB scheme for foster care of greyhounds to identify new foster homes within Ireland for greyhounds.

* Revision, in conjunction with the International Greyhound Welfare Forum, of the Code of Practice on the Care and Welfare of the Greyhound to address retirement and transportation of greyhounds.

* Financially incentivise the rehoming of greyhounds in Ireland through additional supports though the Irish Retired Greyhound Trust (which assisted in the rehoming of 1,021 greyhounds last year).

* Intensify its inspection regime of greyhound establishments (491 inspections were undertaken in 2018).

* Preparation of a statutory instrument to make it a legal requirement that euthanasia of a greyhound must be carried out by a veterinary practitioner. (this is already the standard expected under the IGB Code of Practice for the Care and Welfare of the Greyhound).

* Provision of the Code of Practice to all greyhound owners registered with the IGB and emphasise the requirement to fully comply with the standards expected.

* Progress the traceability provisions of the Greyhound Act 2019 though the establishing of a working group with the Irish Coursing Club (as keeper of the Stud Book) and industry representatives to devise a traceability model and a draft of the proposed statutory regulations.

* Establish a confidential Freephone line to enable reports of welfare breaches to be reported to the IGB for investigation by relevant agencies.

The Board has instructed that the Prime Time programme be reviewed in depth by the executive of the IGB to identify any actions that require to be followed up by the IGB. The Board will be seeking that RTE provides the IGB with all documented evidence gathered while researching the programme so that any breaches of the law can be pursued. The Board has also committed its full cooperation to other agencies and will provide whatever assistance is necessary in relation to any prosecutions.

The Board has also asked that an overall costed five year plan for the ‘care of the greyhound’ by devised for consideration by the National Greyhound Consultative Forum and for approval by the Board in the current year.

Chairman of the Irish Greyhound Board, Frank Nyhan, commented: “The actions evident by an irresponsible minority within the greyhound industry have no place in this sport and will not be tolerated. The IGB will continue to work with all agencies to ensure that such illegal activity is rooted out and those responsible are subject to prosecution for breaches of the law. Now that the Greyhound Racing Act 2019 has been finalised it is the Board’s clear intent to continue on its programme of further regulation within the sector.”

28th June, 2019”

https://www.igb.ie/talking-dogs/irish-greyhound-board-statement-28th-june-2019/

Choc Chip · 01-07-2019 4:51pm

Thanks for providing the link Maryanne.

I don't have time to look at the details right now, but from a quick scan through, there's nothing measurable or time bound in any of those goals, making them less relevant than the goals I'm required to provide for my own performance review.

I'm disappointed, and I'll be even more disappointed if these are accepted by the department.

01-07-2019 5:15pm

Choc Chip wrote: »

Thanks for providing the link Maryanne.

I don't have time to look at the details right now, but from a quick scan through, there's nothing measurable or time bound in any of those goals, making them less relevant than the goals I'm required to provide for my own performance review.

I'm disappointed, and I'll be even more disappointed if these are accepted by the department.

I would imagine that you’d be disappointed with anything less than a total ban!

Choc Chip · 01-07-2019 5:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I would imagine that you’d be disappointed with anything less than a total ban!

Can you provide me with a quote from me that suggests anything like that?

Please don't put words in my mouth.

01-07-2019 7:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I would imagine that you’d be disappointed with anything less than a total ban!

You and your ilk are feeling the pressure I take it.

gozunda · 01-07-2019 7:23pm

Augeo wrote: »

You and your ilk are feeling the pressure I take it.

"Ilk"? Is the personal abuse of posters really necessary?

Choc Chip · 01-07-2019 9:03pm

I'll look at this in more detail tomorrow, but surely the posters who say that work is being done by the IGB already to rectify the matters raised in the report are disappointed with this?

There is nothing quantifying any of the supports mentioned. There is nothing to say when these (unquantified) supports will be provided by.

I'm disappointed by this response. The infrastructure (mandatory microchipping) is already there to provide traceability. If all pups must be microchipped before 12 weeks of age or they will never be allowed to race, then there surely would be full traceability. If an owner couldn't produce the dog when questioned, there should then be hefty fines. This doesn't need a working committee.

I'm also disappointed by the complete lack of acknowledgement that there is overbreeding. I'm borrowing numbers from @MarinersBlues in the other thread, but if we assume that 1200 dogs would be needed every year to sustain the industry, how on earth does the IGB defend the breeding of 15,000 dogs every year?

I don't see how anything can possibly change by continuing to pump out that number of dogs. My immediate emotional response is total despair. I already foster dogs for a rescue. I don't have more sofa space, and it shouldn't be up to people like me to clean up the debris left over from the irresponsible actions of people breeding far too many greyhounds for an industry where they will likely never even run. These dogs deserve better.

01-07-2019 9:20pm

Choc Chip wrote: »

I'll look at this in more detail tomorrow, but surely the posters who say that work is being done by the IGB already to rectify the matters raised in the report are disappointed with this?

There is nothing quantifying any of the supports mentioned. There is nothing to say when these (unquantified) supports will be provided by.

I'm disappointed by this response. The infrastructure (mandatory microchipping) is already there to provide traceability. If all pups must be microchipped before 12 weeks of age or they will never be allowed to race, then there surely would be full traceability. If an owner couldn't produce the dog when questioned, there should then be hefty fines. This doesn't need a working committee.

I'm also disappointed by the complete lack of acknowledgement that there is overbreeding. I'm borrowing numbers from @MarinersBlues in the other thread, but if we assume that 1200 dogs would be needed every year to sustain the industry, how on earth does the IGB defend the breeding of 15,000 dogs every year?

I don't see how anything can possibly change by continuing to pump out that number of dogs. My immediate emotional response is total despair. I already foster dogs for a rescue. I don't have more sofa space, and it shouldn't be up to people like me to clean up the debris left over from the irresponsible actions of people breeding far too many greyhounds for an industry where they will likely never even run. These dogs deserve better.

You raise a few interesting points. Firstly I must say that if us greyhound racing fans have to explain the love of the game, We can’t. It’s something inside you.
Personally, I think that the IGB have gotten the kick in the butt they needed. They’ve been told for years that accountability was needed. In the Uk, if a greyhound hasn’t raced for a certain number of weeks, a letter is sent to the registered owner to let them know it’s whereabouts. Similar needs doing here.
I don’t agree that there is overbreeding. More races might be needed, but breeding numbers are down in recent years. Grading has been overhauled giving all dogs a better chance of winning.
Figures have been touted regarding rearing costs. Most owners in Ireland rear their own, so the figures touted are vastly overstated.
Attitudes are changing....slowly.

Choc Chip · 01-07-2019 9:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I don’t agree that there is overbreeding. More races might be needed, but breeding numbers are down in recent years. Grading has been overhauled giving all dogs a better chance of winning.

I don't mean to pick on you Maryanne, but since you're engaging could tell me where I'd find out how many dogs are being bred, e.g. how many were bred in 2018? Is this recorded anywhere?

I'm looking at this Irish Times article: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/whereabouts-of-6-000-greyhound-pups-a-year-unknown-igb-told-1.3939498 which says that 15k are bred every year and 3.6k are raced. Are there other figures, because to me that looks like a vast overproduction of dogs?

Why should there be more racing? If spectator numbers are down then would it not be better to breed fewer dogs to match the number of races being run?

01-07-2019 9:40pm

Choc Chip wrote: »

I don't mean to pick on you Maryanne, but since you're engaging could tell me where I'd find out how many dogs are being bred, e.g. how many were bred in 2018? Is this recorded anywhere?

I'm looking at this Irish Times article: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/whereabouts-of-6-000-greyhound-pups-a-year-unknown-igb-told-1.3939498 which says that 15k are bred every year and 3.6k are raced. Are there other figures, because to me that looks like a vast overproduction of dogs?

Why should there be more racing? If spectator numbers are down then would it not be better to breed fewer dogs to match the number of races being run?

You would have to contact ICC For accurate numbers. https://irishcoursingclub.ie/
I don’t have access to stud books at the mo. The figures of 15k would include coursing breeding as for as I know.
Spectator numbers don’t matter that much. Owners like to see their dogs compete and aren’t that bothered about the numbers watching. Faster dogs usually mean more injuries. More races for lower grades, graded correctly would be good.

gozunda · 01-07-2019 9:47pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You would have to contact ICC For accurate numbers. https://irishcoursingclub.ie/
I don’t have access to stud books at the mo. The figures of 15k would include coursing breeding as for as I know.
Spectator numbers don’t matter that much. Owners like to see their dogs compete and aren’t that bothered about the numbers watching. Faster dogs usually mean more injuries. More races for lower grades, graded correctly would be good.

From looking at the various online information it would also appear that a lot of dogs are exported to the UK. Where they are raced afaik. However as it is legal to export dogs there - I cant see how individual breeders have to submit this information anywhere. Maybe I'm just missing it tbh.

01-07-2019 10:05pm

gozunda wrote: »

From looking at the various online information it would also appear that a lot of dogs are exported to the UK. Where they are raced afaik. However as it is legal to export dogs there - I cant see how individual breeders have to submit this information anywhere. Maybe I'm just missing it tbh.

They’re supposed to inform the ICC. There’s a slip at the bottom of the microchipping form that’s stapled into every dogs card. It should be returned to the ICC with new owners details so database can be updated.

You see, not many who oppose greyhound racing know all these regulations!

Graces7 · 01-07-2019 10:07pm

gozunda wrote: »

"Ilk"? Is the personal abuse of posters really necessary?

"Ilk " is not abusive, just meaning "those like you/of your opinion".!

gozunda · 01-07-2019 10:44pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They’re supposed to inform the ICC. There’s a slip at the bottom of the microchipping form that’s stapled into every dogs card. It should be returned to the ICC with new owners details so database can be updated.

You see, not many who oppose greyhound racing know all these regulations!

Thanks for that. I did wonder. It looks like those exported prior to these regulations wouldn't show up in that system. Though dont know if have shown up in the UK equivalent when exported though?

Choc Chip · 01-07-2019 10:49pm

gozunda wrote: »

Thanks for that. I did wonder. It looks like those exported prior to these regulations wouldn't show up in that system. Though dont know if have shown up in the UK equivalent when exported though?

Is the microchipping form for greyhounds different than those for other breeds? I would have sent my form to the UK Kennel Club when my dog changed ownership to Ireland, though as far as I'm aware there aren't any penalties for not doing so and I couldn't have been traced if I hadn't had done so.

I've not had a chance to look at other comments yet.

gozunda · 01-07-2019 10:50pm

Graces7 wrote: »

"Ilk " is not abusive, just meaning "those like you/of your opinion".!

Ilk
Pronoun. Represents a group of items of the same type. Has a connotation of the typed group being of bad or questionable character.

Context is always important

em_cat · 01-07-2019 10:53pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You see, not many who oppose greyhound racing know all these regulations!

I don’t think that’s fair. Most who are ardently against greyhound / live bait coursing know the rules & regs as well as people who participate.

Graces7 · 01-07-2019 10:55pm

gozunda wrote: »

Context is always important

:rolleyes:

gozunda · 01-07-2019 11:05pm

em_cat wrote: »

I don’t think that’s fair. Most who are ardently against greyhound / live bait coursing know the rules & regs as well as people who participate.

Tbh - I doubt that is the case. Unless you are involved in the sport - it is largely impossible to know all the detailed rules and regs. It would be the same with any sport imo. Maybe a small number not actually involved do - but going by this and the other thread - most people don't know the ins and outs of greyhound racing for example.

em_cat · 01-07-2019 11:16pm

gozunda wrote: »

Tbh - I doubt that is the case. Unless you are involved in the sport - it is largely impossible to know the detailed rules and regs. It would be the same with any sport imo. Maybe a small number not actually involved do - but going by this and the other thread - most people don't know the ins and outs of greyhound racing for example.

In terms of the breeding & exporting requirements yes they would. Also the people commenting in the 2 threads is not an accurate representation of pro/against.

I’d like to add too that racing whether it be horses or dogs isn’t particularly difficult to work out as in it’s not the dark arts and anyone can read the form books.

DBB · 01-07-2019 11:23pm

Folks,
I can't help but notice strong undertones of bitchiness, sarcasm, and/or condescension from some posters, which is getting worse in some more recent posts.
I cannot emphasise this strongly enough... There is a strongly upheld requirement, when posting in this forum, and detailed in a stickie, that posters address one another in a respectful fashion.
Once again, I'll point out that posters do not have to agree with one another, and, are welcome to debate, but this must be done in a mutually respectful way. Convincing people to understand your point of view is, in my opinion, inversely correlated to the negativity of the tone you take towards those you're addressing.
So... Make your point, but do it nicely.
Thank you,
DBB

Graces7 · 01-07-2019 11:25pm

em_cat wrote: »

I don’t think that’s fair. Most who are ardently against greyhound / live bait coursing know the rules & regs as well as people who participate.

and if those who participate etc know the rules and regs so well, why have not seen and done something to set the abuses right before all this became needed?

Why did any reform etc have to come from outside the situation? IF it ever does come

gozunda · 01-07-2019 11:34pm

em_cat wrote: »

In terms of the breeding & exporting requirements yes they would. Also the people commenting in the 2 threads is not an accurate representation of pro/against.

I’d like to add too that racing whether it be horses or dogs isn’t particularly difficult to work out as in it’s not the dark arts and anyone can read the form books.

Thats fair enough. As some who is involved in a variety of sports - reading a form book or a rule book can only convey certain amount of information tbh. Often there's a lot more which goes that relates to implementation, controls etc which will not be obvious to someone standing on the sidelines. That's the same for GAA, greyhound racing or any other sports imo.

Plus the ordinary person participating in a sport will not always be aware what others may be doing or even have the means to do anything much. Often the best they can do is report something and hope that it is acted upon. And that's the same just like real life imo.

02-07-2019 9:17am

Graces7 wrote: »

and if those who participate etc know the rules and regs so well, why have not seen and done something to set the abuses right before all this became needed?

Why did any reform etc have to come from outside the situation? IF it ever does come

In fairness, many have. There are many groups of owners and breeders who have made submissions to the IGB warning them to tighten up on welfare but this was largely ignored.

Choc Chip · 02-07-2019 10:04am

Deleted User wrote: »

Y
I don’t agree that there is overbreeding. More races might be needed, but breeding numbers are down in recent years. Grading has been overhauled giving all dogs a better chance of winning.

I'm honestly trying to understand your reasoning here. I'm not against dogs in sport per se. Like, I love dog agility. Admittedly, dogs occasionally get injured, but I don't think as a sport it should be banned because of that (dogs love it and we can't remove all risk in life - my dog could as easily be injured out running), and work is continually done to improve safety (e.g. widening weave poles and phasing out metal cups).

However, I just can't get my head round the idea of breeding so many greyhounds every year just for racing. Let's say that we take your approach of continuing to breed 15k dogs every year (I'll email the ICC but without being provided with 2018 figures let's use the most recent available), and we have banded races where slower dogs can compete. Let's be extremely generous and assume half of these dogs are for coursing (which is a separate issue that I don't want to get into right now). The number of races need to double so 100% of those 7.5k dogs run in year 1. We'll give them a racing life of 5 years. So in year 2 we have another 7.5k dogs and we need to double the number of races again to have races for all of them (15k dogs racing). Same in year 3 (22.5k dogs), year 4 (30k dogs), year 5 (37.5k dogs racing) and now you have 7.5k dogs retired from racing and needing homes. Let's throw the coursing dogs that we bred 5 years ago in there too - 15k dogs. Who will rehome these? And what about the next year, and the next year?

Are all their owners going to keep these dogs? With an average lifespan of 12 years, that's 180,000 greyhounds over the next 12 years that we're saying we're not going to export anymore. One for every 10 households in Ireland (per the 2018 census). Are we breeding them just to kill them?

I love watching dogs do what they love (again, not discussing coursing here) and so I can understand your passion, but I couldn't continue to support any sport that was willfully ignoring numbers like that. This is one of the main things I'd have liked to have seen addressed by the IGB's statement. They must have looked at the numbers, and yet they simply don't seem to care.

02-07-2019 10:27am

Greyhound culling

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