Is Brexit Britain a third world country?

JohnMc1

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Or Socialism is always ends in ruin.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

It is. I wish more Socialists in the West would watch that or go there themselves for some perspective.

Everything ultimately ends in ruin so it's not quite clear what you're up to here. Indeed, capitalism wasn't looking too good until capitalists introduced various types of 'welfare state' to rob the clothes off the rising labour movement and consolidate capitalist power in the process (to stick with this simplistic capitalist-socialist dichotomy). All those mad "socialists" like FDR in the US in the 1930s introducing in effect socialist policies in his "New Deal" to try to undermine the rapidly growing labour movement in the US due to the Great Depression. Similarly with the centre-right Raymond Poincaré introducing free secondary school education, and other socialist ideas, in France in the 1920s.

On that issue, I'm not quite sure many Irish people would agree with you that free healthcare, an end to TB, free education, unemployment, pension and illness payments as well as social housing have exactly been 'ruinous' for the Irish people since De Valera's governments started knocking down Dublin's slums and using taxpayers' money to build proper homes for hundreds of thousands of Irish people as long ago as the 1930s.

The general consensus would be that by using taxes for such "socialist" purposes the education and health of the mass of the population increased and Ireland's productivity with it. The vast majority of Irish people, including on this website, have benefited directly from at least one of the above "socialist" policies which interfered in the "free market". Even if you attended a fee-charging supposedly "elite" secondary school, the vast majority of that education was funded by the Irish taxpayer - something which this state did not fund until Donogh O'Malley's 1967 "socialist" decision to introduce free education for students to attend secondary school.

So, yeah, that rage against "socialism" and "socialists" is not very informed, to be euphemistic about it.

briany

Deleted User wrote: »

Everything ultimately ends in ruin so it's not quite clear what you're up to here. Indeed, capitalism wasn't looking too good until capitalists introduced various types of 'welfare state' to rob the clothes off the rising labour movement and consolidate capitalist power in the process (to stick with this simplistic capitalist-socialist dichotomy). All those mad "socialists" like FDR in the US in the 1930s introducing in effect socialist policies in his "New Deal" to try to undermine the rapidly growing labour movement in the US due to the Great Depression. Similarly with the centre-right Raymond Poincaré introducing free secondary school education, and other socialist ideas, in France in the 1920s.

On that issue, I'm not quite sure many Irish people would agree with you that free healthcare, an end to TB, free education, unemployment, pension and illness payments as well as social housing have exactly been 'ruinous' for the Irish people since De Valera's governments started knocking down Dublin's slums and using taxpayers' money to build proper homes for hundreds of thousands of Irish people as long ago as the 1930s.

The general consensus would be that by using taxes for such "socialist" purposes the education and health of the mass of the population increased and Ireland's productivity with it. The vast majority of Irish people, including on this website, have benefited directly from at least one of the above "socialist" policies which interfered in the "free market". Even if you attended a fee-charging supposedly "elite" secondary school, the vast majority of that education was funded by the Irish taxpayer - something which this state did not fund until Donogh O'Malley's 1967 "socialist" decision to introduce free education for students to attend secondary school.

So, yeah, that rage against "socialism" and "socialists" is not very informed, to be euphemistic about it.

I would say that socialism and capitalism can each lead to their own forms of tyranny if allowed to be run to their logical conclusions. Each ends up with a gross consolidation of power. But that's not to say there aren't good ideas in each system, but that's why most, if not all, western economies are mixed economies, and that has generally worked out well.

This has traditionally been more of a debate in America where you often get people on the right decrying 'socialised' medicine. What I'd like to ask those people is why they think socialised medicine is wrong, when they're fine with socialised law enforcement, socialised primary/secondary education and socialised military. If you lived in New York or LA, maybe it would be better if the LAPD or NYPD were disbanded, and in their place you could have private security forces. Plus would be less tax (maybe). Downside would be having to pay 'crime insurance'. Watch those premiums if you live in a high crime area.