Is Brexit Britain a third world country?

Berserker

Aegir wrote: »

I think people struggle to comprehend what a third world country actually is.

Think they use the poverty metrics that we hear about in this country i.e. can't afford a night out once a month, can't afford a holiday abroad. Nobody in our part of the world will ever be close to third world status. A trip to a slum village would be a real eye opener fo a these posters.

Berserker

cdgalwegian wrote: »

Despite claims of media manipulation, the Britons that voted to Leave considered the high cost of Leaving to be worth it, to gain independence. Independence, of course, with the nonsense notion of easy deals. This was where the real manipulation, and naievity, occurred. If Brexit does go ahead, then 'true' independence will require a no-deal exit.

I've been pro-Brexit since day one and I've always said that a no deal exit is the only viable way of achieving Brexit. The country will have to battle through some tough times, for a few years but claiming that it'll be on a third world scale, to tie it back to the thread, is silly. I'd be far more concerned about Ireland. The EU will fail Ireland when push comes to shove.

Tokyo

Moved from AH > CA

VinLieger

Berserker wrote: »

The EU will fail Ireland when push comes to shove.

For 4 years this line has been used and its yet to happen, much like brexit ironically

rgmmg

VinLieger wrote: »

For 4 years this line has been used and its yet to happen, much like brexit ironically

What about 2008? If you think Europe won't sell an island of 5 million down the river for the better good, you're wrong.

Danzy

You don't have to be Euroskeptic to think the EU would sell us down the swanee, without hesitation, if the need arises.

Berserker

VinLieger wrote: »

For 4 years this line has been used and its yet to happen, much like brexit ironically

That will only happen when Brexit happens. Their support for Ireland is creating a headache for the UK but that'll be no more post Brexit and the EU will change tact at that point. Most sensible people in Ireland, even those who aren't hardcore Euroskeptics know that the EU would turn Ireland over in a heartbeat.

ancapailldorcha

splinter65

Balanadan wrote: »

Whatever about the crackpot, tinpot policians, the country itself has really been going backwards for a number of years now.

Their border control is outdated, not recognising passport cards with biometric chips. Amazing really when you consider the importance they place upon border control in discussions on Brexit. It is an absolute pain in the hole to fly through/into the UK from EUrope unless you're coming from Ireland under the CTA.

Businesses and restaurants are closing down left, right and centre. City centres, town centres, and even parts of Central London are deserted. A few years back you'd struggle to get into some restaurants on a weekend evening without a reservation, and even with one, you'd be put under pressure to finish with the table. These days many of those same restaurants are half empty or closed.

I recently stayed in a new luxury hotel which was like something you might expect in an isolated third-world country. The check-in experience resembled a bad day in Fawlty Towers, two of the three lifts didn't work, the lighting in the room was so poor you'd wonder did they run out of money for light fixtures, there was a constant hum from the plumbing in the bathroom, and there were food shortages at breakfast.

I don’t even know where to begin with this....are you joking or something?

steddyeddy

Berserker wrote: »

That will only happen when Brexit happens. Their support for Ireland is creating a headache for the UK but that'll be no more post Brexit and the EU will change tact at that point. Most sensible people in Ireland, even those who aren't hardcore Euroskeptics know that the EU would turn Ireland over in a heartbeat.

But turn it over to who? The UK? The UK won't have much to offer the EU anymore. It needs passporting rights to offer financial services to the rest of Europe. Services make up 80% of the British economy. Stop that and a lot of people lose their jobs. Sell cars to the EU? What cars? Car manufacturers in the UK are closing bit by bit.

You talk about betrayal? Polls in the UK say most Tory voters would give up Northern Ireland in favour of Brexit. This is English nationalism, not British. For long now England's struggled to have its own identity. Ireland will be betrayed alright but it will be Northern Ireland. Polling suggests the majority of Tory voters would sacrifice Northern Ireland for Brexit. I'll give you advice. Nationalism is no longer the enemy of unionism, it's Brexit.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/majority-of-tory-members-would-give-up-northern-ireland-for-brexit-poll-shows-1.3929348%3fmode=amp

Stop moaning ffs

Berserker wrote: »

That will only happen when Brexit happens. Their support for Ireland is creating a headache for the UK but that'll be no more post Brexit and the EU will change tact at that point. Most sensible people in Ireland, even those who aren't hardcore Euroskeptics know that the EU would turn Ireland over in a heartbeat.

I just don’t see this happening.
How will this manifest itself do you think?

cj maxx

steddyeddy wrote: »

But turn it over to who? The UK? The UK won't have much to offer the EU anymore. It needs passporting rights to offer financial services to the rest of Europe. Services make up 80% of the British economy. Stop that and a lot of people lose their jobs. Sell cars to the EU? What cars? Car manufacturers in the UK are closing bit by bit.

You talk about betrayal? Polls in the UK say most Tory voters would give up Northern Ireland in favour of Brexit. This is English nationalism, not British. For long now England's struggled to have its own identity. Ireland will be betrayed alright but it will be Northern Ireland. Polling suggests the majority of Tory voters would sacrifice Northern Ireland for Brexit. I'll give you advice. Nationalism is no longer the enemy of unionism, it's Brexit.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/majority-of-tory-members-would-give-up-northern-ireland-for-brexit-poll-shows-1.3929348%3fmode=amp

Brexit. This is English nationalism, not British. That bit is so true. All the Scottish independence movement has done is compound English nationalism. This brexit etc is about England

JJJackal

How has the EU betrayed Ireland? Providing bilateral and EU backed loans in financial crisis. Funding schools, roads and free trade... esp pre 1990.

I dont think this has been studied well to date and it may be years (or never) before we know - but what do people think would have happened in 2008/2009 if the EU had not stepped in. If we had burned all the bond holders and all the banks who do you think would lend us money? Who would fund Irish peoples deposits in the bank? Who or what would have paid for public services?

At the end of the day, we elected governments who promised poor fiscal control: spend when I have it, I wont spend when I dont

Look at other countries that have run into financial trouble not in the EU - Venezuela, Argentina... Do you think these countries have fared well?

EU support may not be perfect but I would not like to see where we would be without it

JohnMc1

It was becoming a third world Country long before Brexit was a thought.

JohnMc1

JJJackal wrote: »

ook at other countries that have run into financial trouble not in the EU - Venezuela

Venezuela was economically prosperous up until 10 years ago when they decided to become Socialist. From economic powerhouse to dumpster diving to eat. There's a lesson in there somewhere.

briany

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Venezuela was economically prosperous up until 10 years ago when they decided to become Socialist. From economic powerhouse to dumpster diving to eat. There's a lesson in there somewhere.

Yes, the lesson is that if you're going to put money into social programs, do some proper planning. Even oil money is not infinite.

JohnMc1

briany wrote: »

Yes, the lesson is that if you're going to put money into social programs, do some proper planning. Even oil money is not infinite.

Or Socialism is always ends in ruin.

Berserker

steddyeddy wrote: »

But turn it over to who?

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I just don’t see this happening.
How will this manifest itself do you think?

Turn it over to themselves. It's no secret that the EU would love a slice or even the whole pie, if they can get it, of the foreign investment that Ireland has. France, for example, who've floated the idea of meddling in taxation in Ireland before, will be top of the queue to get as much as they can from Ireland on that front, if Ireland is on it's knees post Brexit.

JJJackal wrote: »

How has the EU betrayed Ireland? Providing bilateral and EU backed loans in financial crisis. Funding schools, roads and free trade... esp pre 1990.

Saddled the country with billions of gamblers, essentially, debt. Completely disregarded the democratic wishes of the Irish people by ignoring the results of referenda and making them vote again, until they got the answer they wanted.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Venezuela was economically prosperous up until 10 years ago when they decided to become Socialist. From economic powerhouse to dumpster diving to eat. There's a lesson in there somewhere.

Watching a youtuber who's over there at the moment. Two weeks wages, for those who can afford to go out to work, for a Big Mac meal or a hot dog. Public transport and similar public services are free because they cannot afford to pay staff. Complete madness.

JohnMc1

Berserker wrote: »

Watching a youtuber who's over there at the moment. Two weeks wages, for those who can afford to go out to work, for a Big Mac meal or a hot dog. Public transport and similar public services are free because they cannot afford to pay staff. Complete madness.

It is. I wish more Socialists in the West would watch that or go there themselves for some perspective.

Stop moaning ffs

Berserker wrote: »

Turn it over to themselves. It's no secret that the EU would love a slice or even the whole pie, if they can get it, of the foreign investment that Ireland has. France, for example, who've floated the idea of meddling in taxation in Ireland before, will be top of the queue to get as much as they can from Ireland on that front, if Ireland is on it's knees post Brexit.



Saddled the country with billions of gamblers, essentially, debt. Completely disregarded the democratic wishes of the Irish people by ignoring the results of referenda and making them vote again, until they got the answer they wanted.



Watching a youtuber who's over there at the moment. Two weeks wages, for those who can afford to go out to work, for a Big Mac meal or a hot dog. Public transport and similar public services are free because they cannot afford to pay staff. Complete madness.

You seek to be reading off a list from a very uninformed and factually incorrect UK tabloids Facebook post.

briany

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Or Socialism is always ends in ruin.

Bad management of the economy always ends in ruin, be that runaway socialism or runaway capitalism. It's more about combining the better elements of both systems, along with some prudent planning and to be on guard against our worse tendencies as humans.

JJJackal

Berserker wrote: »

Saddled the country with billions of gamblers, essentially, debt. Completely disregarded the democratic wishes of the Irish people by ignoring the results of referenda and making them vote again, until they got the answer they wanted.

We saddled ourselves with this debt - we need to take responsibility. We borrowed the money (the EU didnt borrow the money and transfer the debt to us?) and voted in governments that were reckless (the EU didnt elect FF on the promises of continuous reckless spending?). We guaranteed the banks. The EU propped up the banks with >25 billion liquidity. We nationalized the banks. In your ideal scenario how would things have played out? Burn the bondholders? Burn the depositors? You say we are saddled with debt - this is true - who should have taken on our debt? Should those who took on our debt then given us more money to fund the country?

We did not have to vote yes the second times. We had the choice. Arguably they heard we voted no and there were changes and assurances added to each of the second referenda.

Plus a referendum is often just a vote against a government rather than a vote for or against the topic being voted on

Berserker

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You seek to be reading off a list from a very uninformed and factually incorrect UK tabloids Facebook post.

Care to elaborate on that?

JJJackal wrote: »

We saddled ourselves with this debt - we need to take responsibility.

I agree that an element of personal responsibility is needed but Ireland did not saddle themselves with the level of debt.

Odhinn

briany wrote: »

Bad management of the economy always ends in ruin, be that runaway socialism or runaway capitalism. It's more about combining the better elements of both systems, along with some prudent planning and to be on guard against our worse tendencies as humans.

...something the Brits have rather spectacularily failed to do.

JJJackal

Berserker wrote: »

I agree that an element of personal responsibility is needed but Ireland did not saddle themselves with the level of debt.

Who borrowed the money? The EU did not

JohnMc1

briany wrote: »

Bad management of the economy always ends in ruin, be that runaway socialism or runaway capitalism. It's more about combining the better elements of both systems, along with some prudent planning and to be on guard against our worse tendencies as humans.

Margaret Thatcher said it best: "The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."

Capitalism has done more to raise people out of poverty than Socialism has.

Odhinn

Odhinn wrote: »

...something the Brits have rather spectacularily failed to do.

Whereas the Irish......

Danzy

JJJackal wrote: »

We saddled ourselves with this debt - we need to take responsibility. We borrowed the money (the EU didnt borrow the money and transfer the debt to us?) and voted in governments that were reckless (the EU didnt elect FF on the promises of continuous reckless spending?). We guaranteed the banks. The EU propped up the banks with >25 billion liquidity. We nationalized the banks. In your ideal scenario how would things have played out? Burn the bondholders? Burn the depositors? You say we are saddled with debt - this is true - who should have taken on our debt? Should those who took on our debt then given us more money to fund the country?

We did not have to vote yes the second times. We had the choice. Arguably they heard we voted no and there were changes and assurances added to each of the second referenda.

Plus a referendum is often just a vote against a government rather than a vote for or against the topic being voted on

How many tens of millions did you borrow?

If you didn't default on that sort of numbers then you are talking horse **** about we this and we saddled that.

When Deutsche bank goes to the wall, we'll see how that talk of responsibility and shouldering debt goes by the wayside.

JJJackal

Danzy wrote: »

How many tens of millions did you borrow?

If you didn't default on that sort of numbers then you are talking horse **** about we this and we saddled that.

When Deutsche bank goes to the wall, we'll see how that talk of responsibility and shouldering debt goes by the wayside.

I am an irish citizen/tax payer so I contributed to electing a government that borrowed 30 billion (essentially on our behalf) for day to day expenditure, 70 odd billion so I could use the bank....

I agree re Deutsche - however no other EU country will be willing to share debt

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

But turn it over to who? The UK? The UK won't have much to offer the EU anymore. It needs passporting rights to offer financial services to the rest of Europe. Services make up 80% of the British economy. Stop that and a lot of people lose their jobs. Sell cars to the EU? What cars? Car manufacturers in the UK are closing bit by bit.

You talk about betrayal? Polls in the UK say most Tory voters would give up Northern Ireland in favour of Brexit. This is English nationalism, not British. For long now England's struggled to have its own identity. Ireland will be betrayed alright but it will be Northern Ireland. Polling suggests the majority of Tory voters would sacrifice Northern Ireland for Brexit. I'll give you advice. Nationalism is no longer the enemy of unionism, it's Brexit.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/majority-of-tory-members-would-give-up-northern-ireland-for-brexit-poll-shows-1.3929348%3fmode=amp

Shhhhhhhhh. It's only those dastardly foreigners who engage in treason. There are so many varieties of waking up that English nationalists are going to have to do with Brexit. And 'Unionists' in the North and in Scotland are in the final stages of end of Empire.

The rightwing Tory ERG MP, Daniel Kawczynski's passionate interview on BBC's Spotlight a couple of months ago was a massive confirmation of the Tory position which can very crudely be put: "English first, and we will sell NI loyalists out in a heartbeat". Anybody who missed it, here it is:

https://twitter.com/BBCSpotlightNI/status/1113199323838390272