If the Green Party got into government are they mad

blanch152

GreeBo wrote: »

You can have people living in rural areas, but they will be living a rural lifestyle.
Not commuting 40miles to work every day.

You have the required services locally, just like we did for most of human existence.

Exactly.

Agriculture and the services needed to support it and the people working in it are what's needed.

Also, the French and other European policies of not letting one-off housing and encouraging clustering in villages should also be implemented.

Seanachai

Shefwedfan wrote: »

FG are useless....they have done nothing.


I hope they get kicked to touch. Greens and FF, some people will cringe at that but what else is around?

SF are useless, they want everyone on the dole and giving them money for nothing
FG have spent how many year going from one disaster to another and not resolving any of them
Labour....useless

People before Profit?? really....they wanted to build a housing estate in the only green part of D15 and when asked about roads/sweage/school etc they had no idea.....

I'd cringe at FF\Greens too but anything is preferable to FG in power, if Independents would form a national government with FF and the Greens maybe some progress would be made in social housing.

maccored

GreeBo wrote: »

You can have people living in rural areas, but they will be living a rural lifestyle.
Not commuting 40miles to work every day.

You have the required services locally, just like we did for most of human existence.

I answered this already but it was deleted as being off topic. Small towns are not rural. You can live in a small town and still have to commute 40 miles so knock that one on the head

GreeBo

maccored wrote: »

I answered this already but it was deleted as being off topic. Small towns are not rural. You can live in a small town and still have to commute 40 miles so knock that one on the head

Its not "green" or a sensible idea to live 40 miles away from where you work, no matter how much of a metropolis Carlow & Portlaoise become.

maccored

GreeBo wrote: »

Its not "green" or a sensible idea to live 40 miles away from where you work, no matter how much of a metropolis Carlow & Portlaoise become.

thats life - some of us have to. your answer is live in a city where theres no houses.

EDIT: before you start about moving to where you work etc etc - I dont know about you, but Ive a mortgage and family responsibilities that makes that impossible. Maybe youre single, living in a city with no car - I dont know - but you dont seem to have a clue about those who arent the same as yourself.

GreeBo

maccored wrote: »

thats life - some of us have to. your answer is live in a city where theres no houses.

Live in Portlaoise?
Work in Carlow?

Your answer is to get make it someone elses problem.

maccored

GreeBo wrote: »

Live in Portlaoise?
Work in Carlow?

Your answer is to get make it someone elses problem.

see my post above. you need to cop on a bit.

GreeBo

maccored wrote: »

see my post above.

It was still your decision to buy a house in Carlow and get a job in Portlaoise.
You cant blame the Greens for that.

maccored wrote: »

you need to cop on a bit.

You need to attack the post and not the poster.

BarryD2

GreeBo wrote: »

You can have people living in rural areas, but they will be living a rural lifestyle.
Not commuting 40miles to work every day.

You have the required services locally, just like we did for most of human existence.

I agree about commuting. I work from a home office so no commute - we still do at least 20,000 miles a year. Why? Because it is necessary to travel to access all manner of services and just engage in daily life. Want to go to the cinema - 40 mile round trip. Take a simple thing like the local post office - we had one 2 miles away that I would visit a few times a week. One government policy is to close these as cost saving measure in An Post. Ours was closed - now I must travel three times as far to access same. One hand of the government doesn't know and/or is willfully ignoring other government policy. That sort of thing applies across transporting kids to schools, games, friends and then things like shopping, hospitals. Even getting a passport application stamped in a Garda station can require a number of attempts. It's state policy to contract services in rural areas, provide no useful public transport and expect people to drive.

GreeBo wrote: »

I'd take more wind/solar farms over more pollution in a heartbeat...wouldn't you?

There's an environmental cost for all energy production, bar perhaps growing your own firewood. These wind and solar farms have a carbon footprint in terms of manufacture and maintenance and in the case of wind energy leave an even larger mark - have you see the size of the construction roads that have to be built to get these large industrial turbines into place? There's no free lunch. The best green policy is to make do with less and who's saying that?

maccored

GreeBo wrote: »

It was still your decision to buy a house in Carlow and get a job in Portlaoise.
You cant blame the Greens for that.

Never have I blamed the greens for anything.

You need to attack the post and not the poster.

You keep churning out the same rubbish with no solutions for the real problems people will face because of increased fuel prices due to carbon tax. Apologies if I offended you.

facehugger99

BarryD2 wrote: »

. The best green policy is to make do with less and who's saying that?

That's the elephant in the room. Our whole capitalist/consumerist/political system is set up the exact opposite to this.

We either fundamentally change the system and put up with likely massive drops in living standards and associated political upheaval, or we find a better way to clean up the mess we're making.

BarryD2

facehugger99 wrote: »

That's the elephant in the room. Our whole capitalist/consumerist/political system is set up the exact opposite to this.

We either fundamentally change the system and put up with likely massive drops in living standards and associated political upheaval, or we find a better way to clean up the mess we're making.

Yes, The Growth Illusion by Richard Douthwaite published maybe 30 years ago exposed this contradiction at the heart of our living. But whilst I expect you can sell the idea of carbon taxes, EVs and heat pumps etc to the great unwashed, the idea that they might actually be better off buying less consumer goods would be be quite anathema to political survival.

GreeBo

BarryD2 wrote: »

I agree about commuting. I work from a home office so no commute - we still do at least 20,000 miles a year. Why? Because it is necessary to travel to access all manner of services and just engage in daily life. Want to go to the cinema - 40 mile round trip. Take a simple thing like the local post office - we had one 2 miles away that I would visit a few times a week. One government policy is to close these as cost saving measure in An Post. Ours was closed - now I must travel three times as far to access same. One hand of the government doesn't know and/or is willfully ignoring other government policy. That sort of thing applies across transporting kids to schools, games, friends and then things like shopping, hospitals. Even getting a passport application stamped in a Garda station can require a number of attempts. It's state policy to contract services in rural areas, provide no useful public transport and expect people to drive.

Driving in your local community isn't an issue...if you are in an EV.
Small, remote communities are the problem, you simply can't give the same services to a small town and a city, unless you are willing to pay €5 for that stamp?

BarryD2 wrote: »

There's an environmental cost for all energy production, bar perhaps growing your own firewood. These wind and solar farms have a carbon footprint in terms of manufacture and maintenance and in the case of wind energy leave an even larger mark - have you see the size of the construction roads that have to be built to get these large industrial turbines into place? There's no free lunch. The best green policy is to make do with less and who's saying that?

I'll take Carbon involved in the manufacture of renewable system than that coming out of the back of a petrol or diesel.

You can't honestly have an issue with an access road to a wind farm but yet want to drive 40miles to the cinema? Really?

BarryD2

GreeBo wrote: »

Driving in your local community isn't an issue...if you are in an EV.
Small, remote communities are the problem, you simply can't give the same services to a small town and a city, unless you are willing to pay €5 for that stamp?



I'll take Carbon involved in the manufacture of renewable system than that coming out of the back of a petrol or diesel.

You can't honestly have an issue with an access road to a wind farm but yet want to drive 40miles to the cinema? Really?

Let me turn your first point around - do you shop online? If so, do you look for free shipping or are you prepared to pay a substantial delivery charge?? Answer that honestly

WRT latter, I rarely go to the cinema but I look across/ around at wind farms on a daily basis. As I've said before, I'll think differently about industrial wind turbine developments when I see them off the coast of Dalkey or Clontarf or in the Phoenix Park etc. Bring them on Otherwise I remain somewhat unconvinced.

GreeBo

BarryD2 wrote: »

Let me turn your first point around - do you shop online? If so, do you look for free shipping or are you prepared to pay a substantial delivery charge?? Answer that honestly

If I need it now I'll pay for delivery, if I'm not bothered when it arrives I will go for delayed free shipping.

BarryD2 wrote: »

WRT latter, I rarely go to the cinema but I look across/ around at wind farms on a daily basis. As I've said before, I'll think differently about industrial wind turbine developments when I see them off the coast of Dalkey or Clontarf or in the Phoenix Park etc. Bring them on Otherwise I remain somewhat unconvinced.

Weirdly enough they put them where the wind is...so you will probably be waiting before you get a farm in Phoenix Park.

However they are off the coast of Bray, Dublin Array.

Worryingly this seems have turned into a NIMBY argument. You are not against them as long as someone else has to look at them?

James Brown

cutelad wrote: »

I blame the greens for carbon tax etc and not give us an alternative. Yes get your house retrofit. Where are we going to find 80 grand, 40 grand for a car that won't bring us beyond the next town. Oh wait we all get electric cars and electricity prices rise rise rise.
It's time we put a stop to this nonsense. Has to be a carrot not a stick

We shouldn't write off the technology, (which is more than capable of getting you from town to town) because of our poor quality representatives. This is all still pretty new tech to Ireland. Now is the time for all politicians, local and national to put some assurances in place that the gougers are stopped from raising electricity prices based on sheer greed especially if it discourages a move to electric vehicles and the like.
We cannot go ahead with the same short sighted McElvaney type politician overseeing these things.
The Greens should be speaking broadly to assure the public and give incentives for alternatives and for me tell me where any carbon tax monies will go before I can get behind it. We've a record for collecting for one reason and then wasting it due to incompetence, willful or otherwise. I've no interest in a carbon tax that goes into a black hole. It'll be a green reason for just another tax bites the consumer/public.
How about it all goes to subsidies solar panels or tax rebates on the purchase of electric vehicles or along those lines. If you allow a wind turbine near your home you get subsidised or greatly reduced electricity?

facehugger99

Matt Barrett wrote: »

. If you allow a wind turbine near your home you get subsidised or greatly reduced electricity?

Already happening AFAIK - at least with some of them.

There is a scale of subsidy depending on how far you are away from the nearest turbine.

BarryD2

GreeBo wrote: »

Worryingly this seems have turned into a NIMBY argument. You are not against them as long as someone else has to look at them?

No, but how often do we hear people being cheerleaders/ proponents of certain developments when they don't have to put up with whatever the actual downsides are themselves. Must be a term for it, sort of the mirror image of NIMBYism?

GreeBo

BarryD2 wrote: »

No, but how often do we hear people being cheerleaders/ proponents of certain developments when they don't have to put up with whatever the actual downsides are themselves. Must be a term for it, sort of the mirror image of NIMBYism?

"As I've said before, I'll think differently about industrial wind turbine developments when I see them off the coast of Dalkey or Clontarf"
Was what you said tbf

BarryD2

GreeBo wrote: »

"As I've said before, I'll think differently about industrial wind turbine developments when I see them off the coast of Dalkey or Clontarf"
Was what you said tbf

GreeBo - I have some mixed opinions as regards the huge wind turbines that are being erected around the country now, they are a different scale to those that came in the first wave. There are benefits and downsides but principally I'm unconvinced that any would be built if it weren't for subsidies and incentives.

Be that as it may and FWIW I can't see these machines being put up in the greater Dublin area - the citizens would just not put up with them. No reason why the Phoenix Park or Howth Head couldn't take such a development and the power generated would be more useful as closer to place of consumption. But it won't happen because of NIMBYism - the urban environmentally aware will happily promote renewable energies but I can't see them being willing to live beside the consequences of their choices. It's as simple as that.

GreeBo

BarryD2 wrote: »

GreeBo - I have some mixed opinions as regards the huge wind turbines that are being erected around the country now, they are a different scale to those that came in the first wave. There are benefits and downsides but principally I'm unconvinced that any would be built if it weren't for subsidies and incentives.

Be that as it may and FWIW I can't see these machines being put up in the greater Dublin area - the citizens would just not put up with them. No reason why the Phoenix Park or Howth Head couldn't take such a development and the power generated would be more useful as closer to place of consumption. But it won't happen because of NIMBYism - the urban environmentally aware will happily promote renewable energies but I can't see them being willing to live beside the consequences of their choices. It's as simple as that.

It won't happen in those places because they are just not suitable.

In the same way as you wouldnt put a nuclear plant in the Phoenix Park.

The cost of land alone would kill the project before it got off the ground.

BarryD2

GreeBo wrote: »

It won't happen in those places because they are just not suitable.

Not suitable in what way? If turbines make sense at Carnsore Point, they can make sense at Howth Head or on Bray Head.

Or do you mean, not suitable because these sites are close to/ in the capital city and people wouldn't want them?

Re the OP, if the Greens do get a few TDs next election they shouldn't go into government as they'd be swallowed up again. Better in this instance to sit outside, campaign and try and embarrass the other parties to take up your policies.

GreeBo

BarryD2 wrote: »

Not suitable in what way? If turbines make sense at Carnsore Point, they can make sense at Howth Head or on Bray Head.

Or do you mean, not suitable because these sites are close to/ in the capital city and people wouldn't want them?

Re the OP, if the Greens do get a few TDs next election they shouldn't go into government as they'd be swallowed up again. Better in this instance to sit outside, campaign and try and embarrass the other parties to take up your policies.

There are already wind farms off Bray head?!

I already gave one reason, i.e. cost, but putting them in the middle of a heavily populated urban area wouldn't make sense from any point of view.

You put them where there is a large amount of free land that experiences the required wind flow.

Honestly, what suitable sites do you see in Phoenix Park or Killiney?
Seems like a cheap shot tbh.

facehugger99

BarryD2 wrote: »

Or do you mean, not suitable because these sites are close to/ in the capital city and people wouldn't want them?

Land is probably one of the biggest factors (along with grid access) in determining location for wind farms. You need dozens (Mount Lucas Wind Farm in Offaly is on 1,100 hectares!) of hectares of land to build an average-sized windfarm..

That's why most of them are in the arse-end of nowhere or on cutaway bogs - the land is cheap and possibly owned by one or two landowners like Coilte or Bord na Mona.

Now imagine trying to negotiate land acquisition with hundreds of individual landowner in the suburbs of Dublin.

abcabc123123

Eamon Ryan isn't happy:

https://twitter.com/EamonRyan/status/1141376352605655045

BarryD2

GreeBo wrote: »

There are already wind farms off Bray head?!

I already gave one reason, i.e. cost, but putting them in the middle of a heavily populated urban area wouldn't make sense from any point of view.

You put them where there is a large amount of free land that experiences the required wind flow.

Honestly, what suitable sites do you see in Phoenix Park or Killiney?
Seems like a cheap shot tbh.

But I wrote on Bray Head or Howth Head as example of elevated sites or offshore if you like in Dublin Bay? Sites that would technically be suitable. Of course they won't be built in these locations because you would have multiple objectors quoting visual & noise pollution, loss of amenity and they would devalue property. Not a cheap shot, just an observation on the double standards of urban environmentalists.

facehugger99 wrote: »

Land is probably one of the biggest factors (along with grid access) in determining location for wind farms. You need dozens (Mount Lucas Wind Farm in Offaly is on 1,100 hectares!) of hectares of land to build an average-sized windfarm..

That's why most of them are in the arse-end of nowhere or on cutaway bogs - the land is cheap and possibly owned by one or two landowners like Coilte or Bord na Mona.

There are people living still in the arse ends of nowhere - so really you're implying that they should just put up and shut up for the greater good?

Aside from which, you'd do worse sometime than to take a trip to the south Wicklow & north Wexford region - well populated part of the SE of Ireland. Not the arse end of nowhere but with a large concentration of wind farm developments and more in the planning pipelines. It's pretty much the case that as long as these are out of sight of the Urban Green, then whatever local impact they have doesn't matter.

When you consider that Mary White came to prominence for the Greens on the back of a successful anti mining campaign in this region, it's a little ironic to see that current Green thinking is indifferent to this new type of landscape degradation.

facehugger99

BarryD2 wrote: »

There are people living still in the arse ends of nowhere - so really you're implying that they should just put up and shut up for the greater good?

If that's what you took from my post, I can't help you any further.

BarryD2

facehugger99 wrote: »

If that's what you took from my post, I can't help you any further.

I'm asking a question about Green policy towards citizens and elaborated on it, pointing out that land based wind farms in the SE anyway are not in unpopulated areas

cutelad

I see on this thread that the green agenda is Dublin based. Greens want all us country folk to move to cities

cutelad

Macha wrote: »

Sure, tourism and connectivity . Does it have to be by airplane? No.

Ireland's train network is SMALLER than it was in the 1930s.

Yes it does have to be mate. A tourist from UK and Germany is hardly going to rail to Kerry or Mayo taking weeks to get here. Gwt real, Ireland is not all about Dublin