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How bad or good is alcohol for society

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    #92
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    In my 9 years serving as a Garda I reckon 90% of the people I arrested were either drunk or there was drink involved. I've never arrested anyone because they were so stoned they were a danger to themselves or others, or because they did something criminally illegal while stoned. It just doesn't happen.

    Thinking on my own experiences, drink brought out both the best and worst in me. I haven't had a drink in over a year, not because i'm trying to give it up, but because I just haven't any interest in it anymore. Personally, I think alcohol is the biggest issue in this country, but it makes so much money for the people in power or friends of those that it will never go away.

    I also think alcohol shouldn't be allowed to sponsor sporting (any) events, just like cigarettes back in the days of F1, but that's just my opinion.

    Great to get views from a guy on the front line. I'm sure ambulance and emergency departments would have similar stories and further on to the main hospitals dealing with dying and sick patients over alcohol abuse


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    #93
    Hobosan
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Hobosan


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Or if we banned rugby players.
    But doubtless there would be other messes. Wives get beaten, cars get crashed, sexual assaults happen... all over the 'dry' countries of this world.

    I'm sure I'm going to regret this, but the 'dry' countries of the world are populated by people with significantly lower general intelligence than us and are thus more prone to violence.

    And for anyone that doubts this, a Witch Doctor convinced aids sufferers that sex with virgins would cure the disease, so the aids infected males began raping babies because the older girls were no longer virgins... So if you want to compare yourself to people like that, go ahead, but leave the rest of the Irish people out of that equation.

    The BBC reported on that epidemic, before you ask.

    Lowering alcohol consumption would definitely reduce those crimes you mentioned and it would be ridiculous to argue otherwise.


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    #94
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hobosan wrote: »
    I'm sure I'm going to regret this, but the 'dry' countries of the world are populated by people with significantly lower general intelligence than us and are thus more prone to violence.

    And for anyone that doubts this, a Witch Doctor convinced aids sufferers that sex with virgins would cure the disease, so the aids infected males began raping babies because the older girls were no longer virgins... So if you want to compare yourself to people like that, go ahead, but leave the rest of the Irish people out of that equation.

    The BBC reported on that epidemic, before you ask.

    Lowering alcohol consumption would definitely reduce those crimes you mentioned and it would be ridiculous to argue otherwise.

    Yep happened in south Africa and became a huge issue. Also witch doctors getting people to chase down albinos to use their bones for potions


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    #95
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Hominids have been consuming alcohol for tens of millions of years. We have evolved to favour traits that accommodate, even encourage consumption.

    So it is folly to think that this is a binary, good or bad, debate. You cannot remove alcohol. People will still get it. Even in countries and cultures where it is strictly forbidden, people get alcohol and drink it. Every attempt to ban it has been a dismal failure.

    Because alcohol is part of the very fabric of our species.

    Any alcohol policy that seeks to reduce harm, needs to first move away from painting it as "bad" by default, and recognise that alcohol abuse is more genetic than it is cultural.


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    #96
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    seamus wrote: »
    Hominids have been consuming alcohol for tens of millions of years. We have evolved to favour traits that accommodate, even encourage consumption.

    So it is folly to think that this is a binary, good or bad, debate. You cannot remove alcohol. People will still get it. Even in countries and cultures where it is strictly forbidden, people get alcohol and drink it. Every attempt to ban it has been a dismal failure.

    Because alcohol is part of the very fabric of our species.

    Any alcohol policy that seeks to reduce harm, needs to first move away from painting it as "bad" by default, and recognise that alcohol abuse is more genetic than it is cultural.

    Genetic than cultural?

    Surely not, I think it goes back to emotional issues why people get to the gutter faster.

    Regarding cultural, it is far more in our culture than the middle east, southern Europe etc. Where alcohol is cultural is countries that have a strong British and Irish ancestry like America, parts if Africa, Australia etc. I think its very much a cultural thing


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    #97
    Calltocall
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭Calltocall


    Ah alcohol, the most widely available, damaging drug there is, I’ve loved and hated it at times but now I’m a bit older I see the dangers and the hypocrisy of attitudes towards it, the lives it cost, the relationships it destroyed, the toll it takes on mental and physical health where the after effects make you want to crawl into a hole and die, where the quietest individual can turn into a vicious lout after a few etc etc but sure isn’t it great craic.

    With all the focus on mental and physical health these days i think the alcohol industry has gotten off very lightly, they can still put up big banners promoting their product, can still sponsor major events without obstruction, on every corner it’s available. Imagine big posters promoting the latests strain of cannabis/cocaine unthinkable yet alcohol which is equally if not more dangerous gets a complete pass because well it’s acceptable to the mainstream, the guards spend a huge amount of resources fighting drug gangs etc yet I often think hang on aren’t the pubs doing as much if not more damage than the drug gangs. Just because something is acceptable to the mainstream doesn’t mean it’s right in fact it’s often quite the opposite. I believe in the future people will be reading their history books and will laugh at this time and say ‘’weren’t they right eejits back then going around arresting people for buying/selling certain drugs but at the same time selling one of the most harmful drugs on every street corner in the country’’ Madness.


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    #98
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Nobelium wrote: »
    I'm not talking about banning anything. Education is a much better route.

    We're so used to it in Ireland, we've forgotten Alcohol is massive contributory factor in Ireland to crime, road accidents, sexual assaults, anti social behavior, physical and mental health problems and a lifetime of domestic problems for families.

    Yes, education is a much better route - in particular destroying this romanticisation of alcohol which poisons so much of what passes as Irish culture today. Having said that, I'd definitely ban advertising alcohol, just as cigarette advertising has long been banned. It's not like they're advertising for any other reason than to increase the sale of their drug.


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    #99
    Hobosan
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Hobosan


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Genetic than cultural?

    Surely not, I think it goes back to emotional issues why people get to the gutter faster.

    Regarding cultural, it is far more in our culture than the middle east, southern Europe etc. Where alcohol is cultural is countries that have a strong British and Irish ancestry like America, parts if Africa, Australia etc. I think its very much a cultural thing

    It's both. There is a genetic factor which makes it easy for some people to stop at 4/5 pints, while for others, to stop at 5 would be nigh on impossible. For the latter group, they will typically drink until they are either unconscious, or they run out of alcohol/money.

    I'll see if I can find the studies on this behaviour.

    Edit - There are so many studies on the genetics of alcohol that I'm struggling to find this exact study, but by searching 'genetics of alcoholism' or 'genetics of binge drinking' you'll find enough information which highlight areas to be wary of, especially for teenagers.

    I'll look again later, it's worth being aware of.


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    #100
    scamalert
    Registered Users Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭scamalert


    wonder what are stats in general for each weekend and fights damages illnesses caused on emergency services and Gardai because its legal.


    it always amazes me because government says its legal and gets nice kickbacks from it they dont care, yet mention any other drugs you will have junkie squad in a minute bashing on the topic.


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    #101
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users Posts: 13,816 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Hobosan wrote: »
    It's both. There is a genetic factor which makes it easy for some people to stop at 4/5 pints, while for others, to stop at 5 would be nigh on impossible. For the latter group, they will typically drink until they are either unconscious, or they run out of alcohol/money.

    Me! During the rougher times, I was drinking a litre of rum a night. That made me question my habits eventually. Subsequently quit and became a stoner, best decision yet! Why did I become a stoner? Because of anxiety, and it's the only natural remedy for it imo, the alternative is to take a concoction of chemicals created by a company who just wants to make profit and has potential side effects of 'increased suicidal thoughts'. Yeah, great drug for someone with anxiety!

    In case anyone doesn't know, I quit being a Garda too, also one of the best decisions of my life, should have done it well before then


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    #102
    Hobosan
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Hobosan


    scamalert wrote: »
    wonder what are stats in general for each weekend and fights damages illnesses caused on emergency services and Gardai because its legal.


    it always amazes me because government says its legal and gets nice kickbacks from it they dont care, yet mention any other drugs you will have junkie squad in a minute bashing on the topic.

    The amount of money I wasted on alcohol in my youth is embarrassing. At the time it was the usual excuse, 'I have nothing else to spend it on'. Hundreds spent in a single night. That's a few months wages in Vietnam.

    The Government are delighted with this situation.


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    #103
    kenmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,276 ✭✭✭kenmc


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yep they do, it's funny when you dig deeper


    We craved to like it cos let's face it who likes beer at the start, it was horrible
    You're drinking the wrong beers so, there are many different flavours in beers, just like there are in wine and food.


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    #104
    Nikki Sixx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 426 ✭✭Nikki Sixx


    Sometimes you need one or two after a tough week. It can be medicinal.


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    #105
    Hobosan
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Hobosan


    Nikki Sixx wrote: »
    Sometimes you need one or two after a tough week. It can be medicinal.

    Nothing else seems to cut the mustard. Drained at work and the idea of sitting at home for the weekend knitting a scarf for your efforts doesn't seem so satisfying. There's only one thing on the mind.


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    #106
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    I reckon the smoking ban has put the amount of 'functioning' alcoholics in this country through the roof.


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    #107
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,926 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    In my 9 years serving as a Garda I reckon 90% of the people I arrested were either drunk or there was drink involved.

    Or, maybe the sober ones had the sense and capabilities to not get caught...

    Just because someone had a few drinks, and got in a fight, it doesn't have to be alcohol thing, it's just a mix of people on a saturday night.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #108
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Like almost everything in life, in moderation is fine. I do find it funny though that in such a health conscious world so many billions of people regularly consume a known and potent carcinogenic substance for fun, but for me the health risks are outweighed by the positive social elements it brings to my life


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    #109
    Nobelium
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Or, maybe the sober ones had the sense and capabilities to not get caught...

    Just because someone had a few drinks, and got in a fight, it doesn't have to be alcohol thing, it's just a mix of people on a saturday night.

    hardly, any trouble i've ever seen on nights out always involves drink


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    #110
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Its all about knowing your limit.
    When I'm lying on the floor in my own vomit and after pissing in my pants I know its time to go on the shorts.


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    #111
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users Posts: 13,816 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Or, maybe the sober ones had the sense and capabilities to not get caught...

    Just because someone had a few drinks, and got in a fight, it doesn't have to be alcohol thing, it's just a mix of people on a saturday night.

    The sober ones get caught too, just that in most cases alcohol was the cause or a factor. For example, I've never arrested someone who was fighting after getting stoned/taking MDMA, but most public order arrests are due to alcohol induced fights. Maybe some had coke taken too, which would add to the machoism, but usually it was just alcohol.

    And it is 100% an alcohol thing. I've lost count of the amount of times people have used the excuse of being drunk for acting that way when they normally wouldn't (so they claim). In my opinion, alcohol and being drunk are not excuses and shouldn't be taken into account for sentencing.


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    #112
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Think attitudes to booze have changed a lot, far less full on binge drinking than 15 years ago. I think everyone having the internet at home which also meant access to things like Netflix, has meant going out is less of an imperative and had the completely unintended but welcome consequence of keeping people out of pubs.

    There is no doubt alcohol is fun to consume to a point, but it is a disastrous drug from a societal point of view. It’s an accident of history that it’s legal, and always will be, but we could do with some more regulation, v strict measures to prevent underage drinking, maybe raising the age limit.

    One v obvious thing that is needed is an outright ban on advertising.


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    #113
    Greyfox
    Registered Users Posts: 3,722 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    but we could do with some more regulation, v strict measures to prevent underage drinking, maybe raising the age limit.

    That would just make drinking alcohol even cooler for young people. In moderation alcohol is good for society and Irish culture as it brings people together. Most people can handle there drink and don't let it ruin there likes. Those who regularly can't, that's a separate issue


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    #114
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Greyfox wrote: »
    That would just make drinking alcohol even cooler for young people. In moderation alcohol is good for society and Irish culture as it brings people together. Most people can handle there drink and don't let it ruin there likes. Those who regularly can't, that's a separate issue

    On a micro level it can be relatively ok for some people, but for society it definitely is not, because many people will not drink moderately. That is inevitable, it is an addictive drug.

    Massive health problems with alcohol, people die due to booze every week. Our district courts are full of assault cases linked to booze, the idea alcohol is doing more good than harm on a macro level is a frankly ridiculous one.

    This article has a lot of relevant information.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/alcohol-deaths-ireland-4034426-May2018/?amp=1


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    #115
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,926 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    On a micro level it can be relatively ok for some people, but for society it definitely is not, because many people will not drink moderately. That is inevitable, it is an addictive drug.

    Massive health problems with alcohol, people die due to booze every week. Our district courts are full of assault cases linked to booze, the idea alcohol is doing more good than harm on a macro level is a frankly ridiculous one.

    People are alive every day due to booze too, that's what the all risks mortality studies tell us - moderate drinkers live longer.
    The biggest problem our health service faces isn't alcohol.
    It's that people are living longer. Someone who drops dead instantly at 65 from a heart attack saves the HSE a fortune and the government too in pension payments.

    Our district courts are full of cases - full stop.
    Muggings, break-ins shoplifting...
    There are lots of cases linked to drugs in our courts, not because of what someone did on drugs but what happens between rival drug gangs to control the trade.

    Alcohol has nothing to do with that, nothing to do with muggings, break-ins,

    But ultimately I reject the premise of the question is alcohol good or bad for society as not a verifiable proposition.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #116
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users Posts: 13,816 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Alcohol has nothing to do with that, nothing to do with muggings, break-ins,

    Unless you have a link to that, I don't believe you. As I said above, 90% of people I arrested over 9 years had alcohol taken. Some people get arrested for stealing booze. Some people stab others because of booze. Other break into houses to rob stuff to sell to buy booze, it's not just other drugs.

    Fact of the matter is that alcohol is the biggest killer in this country when it comes to drugs.


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    #117
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users Posts: 15,286 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    Anyone who has been sober at 2-3am in any town or city around this country will know themselves about what goes on


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    #118
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 27,926 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Potential-Monke wrote: »
    Unless you have a link to that, I don't believe you. As I said above, 90% of people I arrested over 9 years had alcohol taken. Some people get arrested for stealing booze. Some people stab others because of booze. Other break into houses to rob stuff to sell to buy booze, it's not just other drugs.
    Fact of the matter is that alcohol is the biggest killer in this country when it comes to drugs.

    Are you seriously suggesting 90% of all crimes in this country are alcohol related?
    Arrests and crimes are not remotely the same thing.
    You are the one who brought the 90% statistic into it, the onus is on you to back it up with facts. So no I don't believe you.
    I want to see your facts showing 90% of muggings, thefts, break ins, vehicle crimes, rapes, murders, possession, assault are caused by alcohol i.e. alcohol can be directly related to it. Having drink taken when something happens is not the same thing as drink causing it.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #119
    Calltocall
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭Calltocall


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Are you seriously suggesting 90% of all crimes in this country are alcohol related?
    Arrests and crimes are not remotely the same thing.
    You are the one who brought the 90% statistic into it, the onus is on you to back it up with facts. So no I don't believe you.
    I want to see your facts showing 90% of muggings, thefts, break ins, vehicle crimes, rapes, murders, possession, assault are caused by alcohol i.e. alcohol can be directly related to it. Having drink taken when something happens is not the same thing as drink causing it.

    In fairness he didn’t say that he said 90% of people he arrested were under the influence of alcohol, I think you’re glossing over how alcohol can be an instigator in an awful lot of crime, remove the alcohol and there’s a good chance the crime/accident wouldn’t take place


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    #120
    Potential-Monke
    Registered Users Posts: 13,816 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Are you seriously suggesting 90% of all crimes in this country are alcohol related?
    Arrests and crimes are not remotely the same thing.
    You are the one who brought the 90% statistic into it, the onus is on you to back it up with facts. So no I don't believe you.
    I want to see your facts showing 90% of muggings, thefts, break ins, vehicle crimes, rapes, murders, possession, assault are caused by alcohol i.e. alcohol can be directly related to it. Having drink taken when something happens is not the same thing as drink causing it.

    Wow, relax. If you read my posts you'll see that I said that 90% of people I arrested had alcohol involved. Nowhere did I say it was 90% of all crime. But I was a frontline Garda, so the crimes I mainly dealt with most likely had alcohol involved (burglaries, assaults, public order, rape, criminal damage, to name a few).

    And I would love to give you facts on that, but I no longer have access to Pulse so I can't (and couldn't anyway, they're super secretive about it and all requests have to go through HQ).

    You're the one who said 'Alcohol has nothing to do with that, nothing to do with muggings, break-ins,', and that's more sweeping than my own experience percentage of the cases I dealt with. You're literally saying alcohol is not involved in any crime ever. That's way less believable than my own figure.

    Edit: And I'm fully aware than alcohol doesn't have to be the cause, but it's a mitigating factor, especially when in court you hear 'my client is not normally like that, but had consumed excess alcohol at that time', which means that their own defence is saying alcohol was to blame. So which is it? It's a mitigating factor or it's the cause, either way alcohol caused someone to do something they (allegedly) wouldn't normally do. Which reads that alcohol is a major part of the cause of these crimes. No? Let me add to that that crimes are committed due to alcohol, ie: the people robbing drink.


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    #121
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Greyfox wrote: »
    That would just make drinking alcohol even cooler for young people. In moderation alcohol is good for society and Irish culture as it brings people together. Most people can handle there drink and don't let it ruin there likes. Those who regularly can't, that's a separate issue

    Problem is moderate in Ireland is not moderate, the problem is lack of self esteem which is changing in the younger generation, like under 30s, we will start seeing some of a change. The days of 6 days a week having 4 or 5 pints after work is an older generation thing. Its still bad and history does have a habit of repeating itself


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