Pro14 Season 2019-2020

Burkie1203

Digifriendly wrote: »

This pandemic has surely put all immediate hopes of a global season on hold for some time. There is even some talk that next year's Olympic Games may not take place. IMHO it's time to take stock and reassess where the game is actually going or if big bucks from companies like CVC will actually dictate its future. The crowds in S. Africa for Pro 14 to date have been poor and very few supporters can afford to travel from Europe to support their team in S. Africa in Pro 14. The Welsh regions were already struggling financially before the pandemic. Their stadiums were only full for Welsh derbies in Pro 14. Whether we like it or not it is the English/Welsh club games that would attract the bigger crowds. So I would forget about S. Africa altogether and concentrate on a 2 tier British or even European league so the Italians are not cut adrift. I know this would cause problmes re European Cup competitions but why not a straight knockout European competition to run alongside a European league? Just my thoughts.

SA bring a big enough TV market into play. A European League would mean the French and English playing ball and i think that's years away.


The other immediate issue is finance. Unions are struggling big time now. They cannot afford to sit back and take stock

IRFU have already stated their position financially and Its implications. The WRU have announced they are cutting funding to the region's from £27m to £3m.

Who knows what state SRU or FIR are in but it cannot be any better.

I think the Unions in the pro14 will be hoping to finish the 6n in late October and follow up with the AIs (SH sides or 6n sides) even if they are behind closed doors because they will generate TV cash. European cup also brings in some revenue so getting the loose ends from 19/20 finished could see a fair chunk of money paid out to keep things going.

salmocab

Travel is going to be an issue for a while, even if some countries have covid well under control are they going to be happy for 50 odd people to fly off for a few weeks then come back for return fixtures or whatever? I suspect the reality is that there are far too many moving parts here and all these plans and ideas are just that until we see where things are in the coming months.
Britain has made an absolute pigs ear of things and I don’t see many countries happy to take a risk letting them pop over for matches or let their athletes go there without extremely tight control.

Burkie1203

salmocab wrote: »

Travel is going to be an issue for a while, even if some countries have covid well under control are they going to be happy for 50 odd people to fly off for a few weeks then come back for return fixtures or whatever? I suspect the reality is that there are far too many moving parts here and all these plans and ideas are just that until we see where things are in the coming months.
Britain has made an absolute pigs ear of things and I don’t see many countries happy to take a risk letting them pop over for matches or let their athletes go there without extremely tight control.

This will be a problem for Italians and SA I guess. A 7 day quarantine which also will be for those re-entering UK

It's under review every three weeks but it's very easy to see this being in place for the rest (or most) of 2020. F1 pushed for and got an exemption because presumably they have some semblance of a calendar put together but UK teams going beyond UK/Ireland face the same issue when returning it would seem

I actually think we MAY see some clubs fold/disbanded



https://twitter.com/_PaulHayward/status/1267364253188722694?s=19

connachta

Jaguares have requested a spot in Pro14, "too complicated"

thomond2006

A full South African conference of teams is the only expansion for the Pro14 that makes any modicum of sense. If it happens, one stipulation should be that the Kings are booted out. They've offered nothing and in the news recently there are issues between the private owners and the provincial union. That team is going nowhere good. G'luck.

This would probably require the breakup of SANZAAR however which I'd be surprised to see. Tran-Tasman is all well good for the Super Rugby clubs but the Rugby Championship without the Springboks would be a joke.

Burkie1203

thomond2006 wrote: »

A full South African conference of teams is the only expansion for the Pro14 that makes any modicum of sense. If it happens, one stipulation should be that the Kings are booted out. They've offered nothing and in the news recently there are issues between the private owners and the provincial union. G'luck.

Stormers, Lions, Bulls, Sharks and Cheetahs please.

That makes 17. Very Awkward Unless there is a Jaguares based in Barcelona scenario to make 18.

thomond2006

Burkie1203 wrote: »

That makes 17. Very Awkward Unless there is a Jaguares based in Barcelona scenario to make 18.

Well I'm obviously excluding Connacht, duh. :pac:

I don't see Jaguares in Barcelona being a runner. Why would anyone in Barcelona care about an Argentinian team stacked with Argentinians? It would be a good weekend for the few travelling supporters but otherwise...?

connachta

thomond2006 wrote: »

Well I'm obviously excluding Connacht, duh. :pac:

I don't see Jaguares in Barcelona being a runner. Why would anyone in Barcelona care about an Argentinian team stacked with Argentinians? It would be a good weekend for the few travelling supporters but otherwise...?

Munster have too much debts now, let's get rid of them

Burkie1203

thomond2006 wrote: »

Well I'm obviously excluding Connacht, duh. :pac:


I don't see Jaguares in Barcelona being a runner. Why would anyone in Barcelona care about an Argentinian team stacked with Argentinians? It would be a good weekend for the few travelling supporters but otherwise...?

I know your saying that in jest but finances are going to be a major issue in the next 18 month's and I think there will be a casualty or two along the way, not necessarily in Ireland but wouldnt be surprised if some club fold if a benefactor pulls the plug



Yeah it's not a runner for me. Maybe some merit in Argentina in expanded 8n based there but not a club team.

I've been trying to piece together all the different travel advisory, restrictions lifting roadmaps and then the different competition media stuff and think a delayed til 2021 pro18 to align calenders is on the cards with 6n pushed back 2 months. It has some merit as it means travel restrictions might become more aligned and Health Authorities Also have to monitor any potential spread too.

We will be lucky to see much rugby this year.

Think it will be bare minimum to get closure on pro14, Europe and 6n plus a few other internationals to generate revenue in the hope that by the time 2021 rolls around the world is back to something resembling normality.

thomond2006

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I know your saying that in jest

That's quite an assumption you're making.

Off topic but the fate of the Jaguares is such a pity. They go from losing finalists in Super Rugby to out of existence. Brutal for the pathways in Argentina.

awec

NZ v SA is probably the pinnacle of regular test rugby so it’d be surprising if this fixture was no longer a regular occurrence.

Burkie1203

awec wrote: »

NZ v SA is probably the pinnacle of regular test rugby so it’d be surprising if this fixture was no longer a regular occurrence.

It's entirely possible under a global calendar that the Rugby Championship stays as it is.

KevinK

Burkie1203 wrote: »

It's entirely possible under a global calendar that the Rugby Championship stays as it is.

I wonder is there any chance of South Africa joining the 6 nations but also remaining in the rugby championship?

From a rugby point of view it seems weird, but from a financial point of view p, international rugby is the most lucrative so why would the South Africans not want to play extra internationals if possible?

Squidgy Black

KevinK wrote: »

I wonder is there any chance of South Africa joining the 6 nations but also remaining in the rugby championship?

From a rugby point of view it seems weird, but from a financial point of view p, international rugby is the most lucrative so why would the South Africans not want to play extra internationals if possible?

Would mean the international squad would be playing 6 Nations in February/March, Summer games in July, then rugby championship through August/September, then into the Autumn internationals for November.

They're likely not going to want to cut out either the Summer or Autumn games as generally they're big revenue generators, and the fact that Super Rugby runs straight through the middle of the 6 Nations doesn't help matters either.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/Scrum365/status/1267723955038752768?s=19

thomond2006

I think it's a reach to say that SA pulling out of Super Rugby means pulling out of the Rugby Championship. Australia and New Zealand would pull out all the stops to keep the Springboks in. A Rugby Championship of Australia, New Zealand, Argentina and perhaps Japan doesn't match up. Since entering the tournament in 2012, Argentina have won 5 games out of 42. They're the Italy of the tournament.

From a fan's POV, would South Africans prefer to play the Six Nations or the Rugby Championship? I don't see that as a close run thing.

Digifriendly

IMHO this is not good news. As I have stated already it is ultimately money driven. It also means more trips to S. Africa for Pro 14 sides. How many supporters of Pro 14 sides are going to travel to these games and vice versa? Also how is Super Rugby going to operate - Trans Tasman rivals and an Argentinian and Japanese side. What would Aus/NZ supporters think of that? The rugby world is going mad.

thomond2006

Digifriendly wrote: »

IMHO this is not good news. As I have stated already it is ultimately money driven. It also means more trips to S. Africa for Pro 14 sides. How many supporters of Pro 14 sides are going to travel to these games and vice versa? Also how is Super Rugby going to operate - Trans Tasman rivals and an Argentinian and Japanese side. What would Aus/NZ supporters think of that? The rugby world is going mad.

Is this much to consider? The cross border travel for Pro14 games in Europe would be very small.

sydthebeat

Bring it on!!!

It would be a competition to rival the premiership and top 14.

Digifriendly

thomond2006 wrote: »

Is this much to consider? The cross border travel for Pro14 games in Europe would be very small.

I accept that not many visiting supporters go to Italy for Pro 14 games but if a South African side reaches the Pro 14 final how many of its supporters are going to travel to Europe or vice versa if final is held in S. Africa?

Tigerandahalf

sydthebeat wrote: »

Bring it on!!!

It would be a competition to rival the premiership and top 14.

With cvc involved the grander plan may be a 2 division British/Irish/S African League.
This company are only after 1 thing, maximising their return and the above would provide it.

I don't think the S Africans would be interested in moving en bloc to the Pro14 but if the English were involved the cake gets much bigger.

The S Africans will probably want a global calendar so they can continue to play in the Rugby Championship.

I remember the SA head of rugby talking a couple of years back about 2 S African national sides, one playing north and the other playing south. I thought he was talking through his hat at the time but now I am not so sure.

That probably wouldn't happen but you can see how the S Africans are looking to maximise their revenue.

I would imagine the top 4 or 5 teams in England would be very keen on this.

CatFromHue

If they move North it will have very bad affects on the game in the SH.

NZ has a population of 5m, Oz around 20m but rugby is way down the list of popular sports over there, and SA's population is around 60m.

They'll be a huge financial loss to the other SH countries.

sydthebeat

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

With cvc involved the grander plan may be a 2 division British/Irish/S African League.
This company are only after 1 thing, maximising their return and the above would provide it.

I don't think the S Africans would be interested in moving en bloc to the Pro14 but if the English were involved the cake gets much bigger.

The S Africans will probably want a global calendar so they can continue to play in the Rugby Championship.

I remember the SA head of rugby talking a couple of years back about 2 S African national sides, one playing north and the other playing south. I thought he was talking through his hat at the time but now I am not so sure.

That probably wouldn't happen but you can see how the S Africans are looking to maximise their revenue.

I would imagine the top 4 or 5 teams in England would be very keen on this.

I cant see the premiership or the top 14 being in any hurry to change in the short to medium future. Once both have a handle on their wage structures, they are very successful and sustainable leagues. The premiership will ring-fence before it changes.

The Pro14 is the newest and least traditional of the NH leagues. The injection of the SA super rugby teams would be a great addition to the competitiveness of the league, and hopefully the competitiveness and expansion of the HC.

It may mean the possible amagulmation of both teh kings and the cheetahs with some of the remaining 4 SR teams.

Digifriendly

A European Cup with S. African teams makes no sense.

OldRio

Digifriendly wrote: »

I accept that not many visiting supporters go to Italy for Pro 14 games but if a South African side reaches the Pro 14 final how many of its supporters are going to travel to Europe or vice versa if final is held in S. Africa?

The TV rights could be very lucrative in SA. Same Time Zone as Europe. No matches being televised at 'silly a clock' (unlike NZ, Aus and Argentina.)

Re arranging the Global game in time zones does make a lot of sense regarding revenue. Now more than ever maximising revenue is vital.

sydthebeat

Digifriendly wrote: »

A European Cup with S. African teams makes no sense.

Meh.

A Southern hemisphere competition with Japan doesn't seem to cause much semantic issue.

salmocab

Digifriendly wrote: »

A European Cup with S. African teams makes no sense.

The Eurovision sing contest has shown us it can be done, think the European cup in soccer has had Israeli teams in it too.

AbusesToilets

sydthebeat wrote: »

I cant see the premiership or the top 14 being in any hurry to change in the short to medium future. Once both have a handle on their wage structures, they are very successful and sustainable leagues. The premiership will ring-fence before it changes.

The Pro14 is the newest and least traditional of the NH leagues. The injection of the SA super rugby teams would be a great addition to the competitiveness of the league, and hopefully the competitiveness and expansion of the HC.

It may mean the possible amagulmation of both teh kings and the cheetahs with some of the remaining 4 SR teams.

When is the Premiership going to achieve profitability? It's been over 20yrs, figured it might have happened by now. It makes much financial sense for their not to be a combining of the leagues in the future. A B&I one at the least, given they are looking to ring fence anyway. The French will probably resist it, because France, but long term a Euro ( with SA possibly) closed league is the way ahead for the game. Better revenue streams, a better venue for bringing in Jaguares style teams from other countries to develop the game, also offers a better chance at aligning the calender.

icdg

The bigger isn’t always the better when it comes to the competition though. There are 38 professional top flight clubs in Europe already (12 Pro14 excluding SA, 12 PRL, 14 Top 14). That’s not including ProD2 and the English Championship. Realistically 14 is probably the most clubs that the double round robin (the fairest system) works with (and the French have had to run midweek games in the past to make that work). You’re into a number of options to make a continental league work:
- Ringfencing is a given obviously, but are you the one that’s going to tell the club lying 12th in PRL that going down is the end of their ambitions, for ever doomed to be a minnow in the Championship? Or the club #1 in ProD2 that sorry, it’s all been for nothing?

- Chopping the number of clubs? - bye bye Connacht in that case, everyone will have to take the pain and Ireland won’t be excluded. And incidentally that’s the main reason the Cheetahs and Kings are playing in Pro14 in the first place, because they were chopped from Super Rugby and the SARU didn’t want to close them down.

- A system of conferences - The Pro14’s was designed explicitly to preserve local derbies, but how realistic is that in a continental league? In Super Rugby you had more or less even conferences in numberic terms but certainly not in strength which meant if there was a standout team in one conference it could waltz to the playoffs (2017 Lions anyone?)

-Tiers with promotion and regulation? Even worse than the above for derbies. The nightmare scenario for the IRFU sees Leinster and Munster in two different divisions and don’t think that with 38 clubs spread across three tiers that couldn’t happen. And inevitably with a tiered scenario the top tier clubs will eventually want to break away to take a bigger slice of the tv rights for themselves (there’ll be little room for that money to go to the unions in that picture).

Digifriendly

icdg wrote: »

The bigger isn’t always the better when it comes to the competition though. There are 38 professional top flight clubs in Europe already (12 Pro14 excluding SA, 12 PRL, 14 Top 14). That’s not including ProD2 and the English Championship. Realistically 14 is probably the most clubs that the double round robin (the fairest system) works with (and the French have had to run midweek games in the past to make that work). You’re into a number of options to make a continental league work:
- Ringfencing is a given obviously, but are you the one that’s going to tell the club lying 12th in PRL that going down is the end of their ambitions, for ever doomed to be a minnow in the Championship? Or the club #1 in ProD2 that sorry, it’s all been for nothing?

- Chopping the number of clubs? - bye bye Connacht in that case, everyone will have to take the pain and Ireland won’t be excluded. And incidentally that’s the main reason the Cheetahs and Kings are playing in Pro14 in the first place, because they were chopped from Super Rugby and the SARU didn’t want to close them down.

- A system of conferences - The Pro14’s was designed explicitly to preserve local derbies, but how realistic is that in a continental league? In Super Rugby you had more or less even conferences in numberic terms but certainly not in strength which meant if there was a standout team in one conference it could waltz to the playoffs (2017 Lions anyone?)

-Tiers with promotion and regulation? Even worse than the above for derbies. The nightmare scenario for the IRFU sees Leinster and Munster in two different divisions and don’t think that with 38 clubs spread across three tiers that couldn’t happen. And inevitably with a tiered scenario the top tier clubs will eventually want to break away to take a bigger slice of the tv rights for themselves (there’ll be little room for that money to go to the unions in that picture).

Excellent post which gets down to the nuts and bolts of an expanded competition. Fully concur with what's been written.