Vatican issues document rejecting idea that people can choose or change gender

Former Observer

suicide_circus wrote: »

the idea that you can be any gender you want to be is about as realistic as transubstnaciation.

indeed as western society slays the old mythologies so we see new suspiciously similar ones take their place; priesthood, heresy, the veneration of the victim, inquisition.

Seems like perhaps you've bought into a few fibs yourself. If gender exists thaen surely you can choose whatever you want. It's biological sex you can't change.

Blinky Plebum

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Everything has changed.

We've progressed on from that constraint.

Gender, like age & race are just social constructs.
Literally just labels.
Means of putting people into little boxes.

Thankfully we've moved on & people are free to be whatever gender or skin colour or age they feel like they are that day.





That's just bigotry.
A child trapped in the wrong gender frankly needs this assistance more than anyone to help them cope better.

You'll be glad to know we are making progress there too.

In California people as young as 12 can now seek medical intervention to prevent puberty and hormone treatment to ready them for their transition to another gender or skin colour.

This is literally a life saver for many young people trapped in the wrong body.

Surely wanting to change your skin colour is an incredibly racist way of thinking.

paleoperson

Deleted User wrote: »

Eh? Sorry, but I can't see anything "heteronormatively conformative" about a hetero male sucking a transgender woman's d*ck.

It's not for me to tell anyone what to do, or think - but this business of redefining what words mean to suit a particular viewpoint is crazy.
Live your life however you like - but if you want to live a more liberal lifestyle, then don't try telling the majority of the population what they consider to be "heteronormatively conformative" - because it's not likely to be "sucking a transgender woman's dick" - irrespective of whether it makes a member of the LGBT community "lol" or not!

Live how you like, I don't care, but just as the LGBT community are entitled to have sexual preferences, so do the heterosexual community. Trying to define what a hetero man or woman regard as "conformative", as being the same as what a transgender man or woman regard as "conformative" makes absolutely no sense.

You can make people who are different equal - but you cannot make them identical.

I reckon he's going to say "I was just being sarcastic, I thought it was obvious".

It obviously wasn't and you knew people could misinterpret you. When you act like that you're trolling, even if you put your hand up to it afterwards that doesn't make it not a troll.

We're in a world with many crazies so pretending that someone else should know that you aren't one is just misleading and trolling.

Zorya

Sarcasm or irony are hard acts these days. :pac: Things are so damn odd.

cursai

A stuck clock is right twice a day.

And people usually ignore it.

Glass fused light

_blaaz wrote: »

I dont know enough about trans people,but dont really see the harm.in people identifying as what they want??(it affects noone only person doing it ffs)

NB I am in no way suggesting that people with a body dismorphia about their birth sex are sex offenders etc but pointing out a big down side in the real life application of the belief of "gender rights belong to the transgendered".

Have a read of this rather disturbing and extreme UK case
https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison

Now you can decide on who it affected, and what the individual motivations were for the decisions which were made. Plus the ripple effect the decisions have on society.

Now here is a question. Were the 2 sexual assaults recorded as a crime committed by a male or female offender? How will that statistical record influence prison policy.

Cyclonius

Deleted User wrote: »

Eh? Sorry, but I can't see anything "heteronormatively conformative" about a hetero male sucking a transgender woman's d*ck.

It's not for me to tell anyone what to do, or think - but this business of redefining what words mean to suit a particular viewpoint is crazy.
Live your life however you like - but if you want to live a more liberal lifestyle, then don't try telling the majority of the population what they consider to be "heteronormatively conformative" - because it's not likely to be "sucking a transgender woman's dick" - irrespective of whether it makes a member of the LGBT community "lol" or not!

Live how you like, I don't care, but just as the LGBT community are entitled to have sexual preferences, so do the heterosexual community. Trying to define what a hetero man or woman regard as "conformative", as being the same as what a transgender man or woman regard as "conformative" makes absolutely no sense.

You can make people who are different equal - but you cannot make them identical.

It's a parody account, set up by Andrew Doyle, a comedian. More here.

uck51js9zml2yt

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Everything has changed.

We've progressed on from that constraint.

Gender, like age & race are just social constructs.
Literally just labels.
Means of putting people into little boxes.

Thankfully we've moved on & people are free to be whatever gender or skin colour or age they feel like they are that day.

.

By what "logic" do you think that biological anatomy is just a social construct?

A man has a biology that a woman doesn't have and visa versa.

A man isn't a man because he feels like a dragon and therefore is a dragon.
That's nothing but cloud cuckoo land.

_blaaz

Lucille Uptight Teflon wrote: »

A man isn't a man because he feels like a dragon and therefore is a dragon.
That's nothing but cloud cuckoo land.

Obviously biology not be changing like

But i fail to see any harm in if someone wants to identify as x,y or z though??


Let them off like??deosnt affect me any way,shape or form what people identify as,so long as they not harming anyone innocent,ehat harm?

Elemonator

_blaaz wrote: »

How has transgender sh1te become so mainstream the pope is commenting on it


Afaik its less than 1% of population it affects??

All politics aside, I have heard as close as 2%. I helped do some research for this topic while in college.

If you want to visualise that, that's about the same percentage of people who are redheads.

TuringBot47

Elemonator wrote: »

All politics aside, I have heard as close as 2%. I helped do some research for this topic while in college.

If you want to visualise that, that's about the same percentage of people who are redheads.

There's no way it's anywhere near that high.

Typical exaggeration to make their cause seem more important.

_blaaz

TuringBot47 wrote: »

There's no way it's anywhere near that high.

Typical exaggeration to make their cause seem more important.

On an international context maybe.....some south pacific nations would have large transgender communties afaik.....but be a near non issue in western culture?

cgcsb

Always curious why people get so annoyed over these church statements. Like yeah that's what they think, that's partly why they're deeply unpopular and their business model is failing in Europe.

Tilikum17

cgcsb wrote: »

Always curious why people get so annoyed over these church statements. Like yeah that's what they think, that's partly why they're deeply unpopular and their business model is failing in Europe.

30 years from now they’ll be virtual non existent in this country.

Moving onto countries in Africa that haven’t a pot to piss in.

Rotten *****.

cursai

Tilikum17 wrote: »

30 years from now they’ll be virtual non existent in this country.

Moving onto countries in Africa that haven’t a pot to piss in.

Rotten *****.

Nonsense. They'll still be here. People will still have a need for spiritual guidance, whether or not it only exists in their own heads............

They'll be known as progressive trans-religionaries.

ILoveYourVibes

Take control of the schools and hospitals and they are gone.

paleoperson

Tilikum17 wrote: »

30 years from now they’ll be virtual non existent in this country.

Moving onto countries in Africa that haven’t a pot to piss in.

Rotten *****.

Same goes for trans people. It's already on the downturn.

Trans ideology is a crud.

paleoperson

paleoperson wrote: »

I reckon he's going to say "I was just being sarcastic, I thought it was obvious".

It obviously wasn't and you knew people could misinterpret you. When you act like that you're trolling, even if you put your hand up to it afterwards that doesn't make it not a troll.

We're in a world with many crazies so pretending that someone else should know that you aren't one is just misleading and trolling.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Bear in mind I grew up in a world where gay people hid their sexuality. My daughter volunteers in a Community group, where they have an LGBT group. Strangely enough, one member, who happens to be gay, admitted last night that she didn't fully understand what it was to be trans - so how are the rest of us meant to understand it, when any deviation from " Of course, you can change the meaning of words to mean what ever you want" results in accusations of trolling?

I'm not trolling. I don't care what people do with their lives, if they're not hurting others - but if I'm happy to accept how other people view life and sexuality, I expect the same level of respect in return.

As to this business of children receiving sex change hormones - that's crazy. I've raised tomboys who wished they were boys, who are now mothers, and laugh at their tomboy antics.

I'm sure there are genuinely people who are trans - but I don't believe they can be identified as young children. I've also known people who come out as gay as teenagers, who decide a few years later that they're heterosexual, just as some have come out as gay, and actually are gay.

Or, to put it another way - wait until kids are mature enough to make a responsible decision before rushing down the sex change route.

Elemonator

TuringBot47 wrote: »

There's no way it's anywhere near that high.

Typical exaggeration to make their cause seem more important.

I really doubt that. 2% is backed by academic studies.

Older research systems seemed to suggest that the rate of intersex was roughly about 0.5% of the population but that research only referred to one intersex trait which was ambiguous genitalia. It can come in various forms however (sex chromosome composition, gonadal structure, hormone levels, and the structure of the internal genital duct systems and external genitalia). 1.7%
is an estimate given was Anne Fausto Sterling at Brown University who specialises in biology. Another academic puts it at a higher rate again. You can check out the article “How Sexually Dimorphic Are We?” published in the American Journal of Human Biology by Blackless.

klaaaz

Deleted User wrote: »

As to this business of children receiving sex change hormones - that's crazy. I've raised tomboys who wished they were boys, who are now mothers, and laugh at their tomboy antics.

Kids do not receive sex change hormones in this country unless you're talking about 16 yr olds. Depends on your definition of kid

Deleted User wrote: »

Or, to put it another way - wait until kids are mature enough to make a responsible decision before rushing down the sex change route.

Kids(that definition again) do not get sex change surgery either until they're 16 but I don't think they has ever been a case of an Irish 16 yr old getting sex change surgery. If there was, we would have heard the loud condemnation from the tabloids, the Vatican supporters and the tiny minority of posters here who are obsessed with condemning trans issues.

Elemonator wrote:

I really doubt that. 2% is backed by academic studies.

In this country, there has been from the last count under 400 people changing gender by obtaining gender recognition certs. A recent controversial Primetime program stated about a dozen children under 18(likely 16-18 yrs old) who changed gender, that's out of 900,000 plus pupils. That tiny number of people generate such rage and vitriol in some people, quite amazing.

olestoepoke

FFred wrote: »

Man has Willy.
Woman has front bum.
End.

:D

klaaaz

klaaaz wrote: »

Kids do not receive sex change hormones in this country unless you're talking about 16 yr olds. Depends on your definition of kid



Kids(that definition again) do not get sex change surgery either until they're 16 but I don't think they has ever been a case of an Irish 16 yr old getting sex change surgery. If there was, we would have heard the loud condemnation from the tabloids, the Vatican supporters and the tiny minority of posters here who are obsessed with condemning trans issues.



In this country, there has been from the last count under 400 people changing gender by obtaining gender recognition certs. A recent controversial Primetime program stated about a dozen children under 18(likely 16-18 yrs old) who changed gender, that's out of 900,000 plus pupils. That tiny number of people generate such rage and vitriol in some people, quite amazing.

16 is still a kid, in my book.

They're still exploring who they are, and some of them are still exploring their sexuality.

Better be sure someone wants a sex change, than have regrets later. I.M.O., of course.

Neyite

Of course the Vatican was going to say this. Dunno why anyone is surprised. It's a Cis-men only club.They've kept women out of the clergy for millennia. In the era of self-ID and acceptance of gender fluidity they can't risk a woman getting in by transing, or risk people already in the club becoming women. Because then the cis-women will want in as well. And that would really make the old farts in Rome shít themselves.

TuringBot47

klaaaz wrote: »

That tiny number of people generate such rage and vitriol in some people, quite amazing.

And there's the poor victim syndrome again.
In fairness I imagine most people consider trans people to be something of an amusement like someone with turrets syndrome.
There's no rage and vitriol.

But when the "extremists" in the trans community state and push for the state to legal enforce their view that they are 100% indistinguishable from whatever sex/gender they identify with, then people will call them out over it.

Neyite wrote: »

Of course the Vatican was going to say this. Dunno why anyone is surprised. It's a Cis-men only club.They've kept women out of the clergy for millennia. In the era of self-ID and acceptance of gender fluidity they can't risk a woman getting in by transing, or risk people already in the club becoming women. Because then the cis-women will want in as well. And that would really make the old farts in Rome shít themselves.

A feminist hijacking a trans thread... it's handbags at dawn here.

If anything I reckon keeping women out of the church was to keep men in it.
If priests were allowed to marry and have kids then there would be more reason/pressure from the missus for them to leave the priesthood.

So I'd argue the complete opposite, the Vatican kept women out to enslave men.

klaaaz

TuringBot47 wrote: »

And there's the poor victim syndrome again.
In fairness I imagine most people consider trans people to be something of an amusement like someone with turrets syndrome.
There's no rage and vitriol.

So trans people are to be laughed at and mocked at in your view, so much bitterness in you. That's quite sad.

TuringBot47 wrote: »

But when the "extremists" in the trans community state and push for the state to legal enforce their view that they are 100% indistinguishable from whatever sex/gender they identify with, then people will call them out over it

That has been law since 2015 here in Ireland, nothing extreme about granting people their civil rights.

branie2

I'm Catholic, but I would disagree with the Vatican on this, and their views on homosexuality

NaFirinne

where does the whole trans thing start getting ridiculous though.

I mean a grown 40 year old identifying as a 3 year old girl.

I women identifying as a donkey.

All I do is try an respect people the way I would like to be respected. Doesn't mean I understand or comprehend their decisions.

I wonder sometimes though are we enabling people that have a mental illness instead of helping them over come it. I guess time will tell.

klaaaz

NaFirinne wrote: »

where does the whole trans thing start getting ridiculous though.

I mean a grown 40 year old identifying as a 3 year old girl.

I women identifying as a donkey.

All I do is try an respect people the way I would like to be respected. Doesn't mean I understand or comprehend their decisions.

I wonder sometimes though are we enabling people that have a mental illness instead of helping them over come it. I guess time will tell.

None of that is transgender.

TuringBot47

klaaaz wrote: »

So trans people are to be laughed at and mocked at in your view, so much bitterness in you. That's quite sad.

Where did I say laughed at and mocked ?
There's a difference between regarding someone with amusement and laughing/mocking them to their face.

At most, I don't like the social media attacks on peoples reputation/career when the trans activists target them.

Some of the adjectives you leak like bitterness and sad are actually quite telling, you're projecting your own feelings.

klaaaz

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Where did I say laughed at and mocked ?
There's a difference between regarding someone with amusement and laughing/mocking them to their face.

At most, I don't like the social media attacks on peoples reputation/career when the trans activists target them.

Some of the adjectives you leak like bitterness and sad are actually quite telling, you're projecting your own feelings.

What's so amusing about transgender people that causes you to laugh at them?