Bike Park Ireland closed this weekend

Top Dog

Country is a joke. Introduce sugar tax in a poor attempt to tackle childhood obesity, while at the same time allowing business insurance to run riot to the point where businesses that actually encourage getting out and being healthy, are being forced to close the doors due to not being able to get the necessary cover.

https://www.facebook.com/652672661459110/posts/2327280183998341/

rizzodun

The indemnity laws in Ireland are ridiculous, they’re the main reason that adventure and outdoor tourism in Ireland is stifled, and have a lot to do with why advancing mountain biking in Ireland is years behind other countries too. Why can’t dumb people be held accountable themselves for doing dumb **** and be done with it.

covey123

Ahh ffs

rizzodun

A model like New Zealand could work, if the political will was there.

https://adventure.howstuffworks.com/new-zealand-became-home-extreme-sports.htm

prunudo

Thats bad form, hope they get sorted soon.
Does the disclaimer you sign at the start not reduce the risk to the insurance underwriters?

Hurrache

rizzodun wrote: »

The indemnity laws in Ireland are ridiculous, they’re the main reason that adventure and outdoor tourism in Ireland is stifled, and have a lot to do with why advancing mountain biking in Ireland is years behind other countries too. Why can’t dumb people be held accountable themselves for doing dumb **** and be done with it.

Judges, blame lands squarely at judges feet and their ridiculous payouts.

Rathbeggan Lakes, where our local scout troup was to go for a weekend stay has closed for the same reason, and Boyne Valley Activities is in the same position having to consider closing.

Bike park employ a lot of locals in the cafe too.

jvan wrote: »

Thats bad form, hope they get sorted soon.
Does the disclaimer you sign at the start not reduce the risk to the insurance underwriters?

Doesn't make a difference, premiums are raising even if you never claimed.

Wanderer78

This insurance stuff is getting worrying, must be scary running a place like bike park

xxyyzz

Hurrache wrote: »

Judges, blame lands squarely at judges feet and their ridiculous payouts.

Rathbeggan Lakes, where our local scout troup was to go for a weekend stay has closed for the same reason, and Boyne Valley Activities is in the same position having to consider closing.

Bike park employ a lot of locals in the cafe too.



Doesn't make a difference, premiums are raising even if you never claimed.

BPI couldn't even get a quote. Brexit is a big part of this, no Irish insurance will cover any operator in the Irish adventure tourism industry so in the last few years they have had to get quotes from English companies, however with the uncertainties over Brexit the English companies don't want to know about the Irish market this year. It'll be squeaky bum time for the gap also unfortunately.

Wanderer78

xxyyzz wrote:

BPI couldn't even get a quote. Brexit is a big part of this, no Irish insurance will cover any operator in the Irish adventure tourism industry so in the last few years they have had to get quotes from English companies, however with the uncertainties over Brexit the English companies don't want to know about the Irish market this year. It'll be squeaky bum time for the gap also unfortunately.

Jesus that's very worrying for park owners

cruizer101

Wanderer78 wrote: »

This insurance stuff is getting worrying, must be scary running a place like bike park

It really is, it seems to have reached a point where it isn't just annoying and expensive, it is now prohibitive and leading to business closures, which is a very worrying trend.

I was only reading about Boyne Valley Adventure centre having to close this morning.
There is also a lot of creches saying their insurance is getting to high and some are potentially having to look at closing.

The Government really needs to start looking into this before it is too late, already late enough.

Wanderer78

cruizer101 wrote:

The Government really needs to start looking into this before it is too late, already late enough.

Interesting discussion on this weeks Irish times inside business podcast with conor faughnan about insurance, well worth a listen, I fear serious trouble ahead for many business owners

covey123

The root problem is there is a system in place that supports the Compo Culture,individuals have an opportunity for financial gain out of any incident that may involve personal injury, physical or even emotional!
Even though it may be down to their own negligence or stupidity, recently heard of two claims against a shop that were both down to the claimants being at fault,there was still a payout of almost 45k between the two cases.

Its pretty much a case of "oh you hurt yourself?do you want some money?you may as well sure,its available to you,you would be a fool not to take some free cash"

Now there is an opportunity thats hard to turn your back on....

rizzodun

Hurrache wrote: »

Judges, blame lands squarely at judges feet and their ridiculous payouts.

Rathbeggan Lakes, where our local scout troup was to go for a weekend stay has closed for the same reason, and Boyne Valley Activities is in the same position having to consider closing.

Bike park employ a lot of locals in the cafe too.



Doesn't make a difference, premiums are raising even if you never claimed.

Judges cannot award stupid sums if legally there is no avenue to sue others due to decisions you make yourself. That's effectively what is in place in NZ.

This lowers the risk of a large payout significantly, therefore any insurance premium needed is much reduced, if needed at all.

gman2k

There was a case this week with a lady who had taken a case after slipping on ice in a carpark.
I have sympathy for her, but come on, every human knows that ice is slippy. Where is personal responsibility?
Ok, she lost the case, but did not have defendant costs awarded against her.
Why do we have to shoulder this cost? She gambled in taking the case!
It's the legal profession who are laughing all the way to the bank as they cannot lose.
No doubt that in cases like these claimants are told by legal advisors that they will have a strong case and are encouraged to go forward.
The way this country is going there will be no outdoor activities available in 12 months time.

fatbhoy

I guess it's only a matter of time until The GAP goes too, unless something changes. This sucks. :mad:

Borderfox

Very true, if people didn't claim then there wouldn't be awards and the insurance wouldn't go up.

CardinalJ

gman2k wrote:

There was a case this week with a lady who had taken a case after slipping on ice in a carpark. I have sympathy for her, but come on, every human knows that ice is slippy. Where is personal responsibility? Ok, she lost the case, but did not have defendant costs awarded against her. Why do we have to shoulder this cost? She gambled in taking the case! It's the legal profession who are laughing all the way to the bank as they cannot lose. No doubt that in cases like these claimants are told by legal advisors that they will have a strong case and are encouraged to go forward. The way this country is going there will be no outdoor activities available in 12 months time.

It was even worse. She did have the costs awarded against her, but the judge said in open court that he hoped the insurers wouldnt pursue her.

I work for an insurer. We recently won a claim that ran for 3 days in the high court. I cant give any specifics but the claim was ridiculous. We were awarded our costs, but the claimant will never be in a position to pay 10,000s unless we were to try and take her family home. That would be almost impossible to do.

Between judges not wanting to award costs and Insurers not being able to recover their own costs, its killing business in Ireland.

The entire system needs a hard reset.

prunudo

fatbhoy wrote: »

I guess it's only a matter of time until The GAP goes too, unless something changes. This sucks. :mad:

I'd say there's plenty of businesses getting worried coming up to their renewal dates.

prunudo

This is all ifs and buts and not intended to start rumours. But say God forbid BPI can't get cover and the Gap don't get renewed, that really is a sorry state for any business that involves any activity out of the ordinary. Basically any business idea that is in any way deemed to be risky will be doomed to failure before if it ever gets off the ground. As the OP said, the government introduce a sugar tax to reduce obesity yet do nothing to help businesses that are encouraging people to be active and out in the fresh air.
After reading about the adventure and rafting places closing in Meath, even the likes of Tayto Park must be at risk too. The more I think about it, the amount of places that could be effected, it's a scary thought.

covey123

So, and I mean this in a positive way, other than the New Zealand approach, what are the possible solutions?

covey123

Just had a thought, hope guys in Kerry manage to get their trails up and running without being impeded before they even start

Top Dog

Another adventure business facing closure in Meath - https://www.thejournal.ie/meath-insurance-4638884-May2019/?utm_source=facebook_short&fbclid=IwAR19s5_sTLjaUU5nV1uF9RqJ_OlM_sAW5aHNHk5_bzDbwIQru_Z0bihiSrk

Icyseanfitz

Is there any waiver or way for a person to accept all personal liability at a location or activity in this country?

prunudo

I wonder is it the trails they have issue with or something else like the uplift set up. It might also be a push from the insurance companies to push people to get individual insurance. So you'd have to produce your own insurance or something like maybe a cycling ireland member before you can take part in the activity.

Borderfox

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Is there any waiver or way for a person to accept all personal liability at a location or activity in this country?

You can get people to sign any piece of paper accepting liability but it does nothing when it gets to court, once you enter a premises the owner has a duty of care to patrons.





As said above maybe if your cycling Ireland membership is shown that might mitigate liability, when I was working as a photographer I had to show proof of insurance before being let onto certain premises

Melodeon

I was involved in off-road motorsport for a good while and we had a professionally created and approved participant disclaimer, in that our club's legal representative, the club's insurance provider, and the land owner's insurance/legal people all approved it and deemed it acceptable.
However, they ALL stressed that it is impossible under Irish law for a person to sign away their rights, and no matter what they signed or agreed to, the option to pursue for damages was always available to them.
Participant disclaimers are something like pre-nuptial agreements, in that they hold no legal weight in and of themselves, but they MAY be taken into consideration when deciding the payment in the event of a successful claim.

rizzodun

Melodeon wrote: »

I was involved in off-road motorsport for a good while and we had a professionally created and approved participant disclaimer, in that our club's legal representative, the club's insurance provider, and the land owner's insurance/legal people all approved it and deemed it acceptable.
However, they ALL stressed that it is impossible under Irish law for a person to sign away their rights, and no matter what they signed or agreed to, the option to pursue for damages was always available to them.
Participant disclaimers are something like pre-nuptial agreements, in that they hold no legal weight in and of themselves, but they MAY be taken into consideration when deciding the payment in the event of a successful claim.

This.

This is why the law needs to change to put responsibility back on the person themselves.

Ireland on a national level is modelling itself as an outdoor and adventure tourism destination, but the law is completely contrary to that, so much so that BPI is only one of many companies at risk of going under because of the current insurance situation.

rizzodun

rizzodun wrote: »

Ireland on a national level is modelling itself as an outdoor and adventure tourism destination[\b], but the law is completely contrary to that

Impossible not to get a few scrapes and scratches over the course of a dozen of these escapades.

nelly17

fatbhoy wrote: »

I guess it's only a matter of time until The GAP goes too, unless something changes. This sucks. :mad:

I really hope not I had a pretty bad fall up there I broke my collar bone and 2 ribs I was really well looked after they could not be helpful enough, they called me at least 3 times to check up on me after. Good people.

Wanderer78

Any update?

Good jib!

Nothing on the website or FB.

How come they were only closed for the weekend? They hardly sorted out any insurance problems over the weekend. Or was it something else?

prunudo

Good jib! wrote: »

Nothing on the website or FB.

How come they were only closed for the weekend? They hardly sorted out any insurance problems over the weekend. Or was it something else?

I don't think they are usually open mid week unless its prearranged. Certainly not the early half anyway.

CramCycle

Good jib! wrote: »

Nothing on the website or FB.

How come they were only closed for the weekend? They hardly sorted out any insurance problems over the weekend. Or was it something else?

I presume its in the hope that they get a better quote next week. Would CI insurance cover this to an extent, as in make every person who goes in for the day a member of CI, maybe they could negotiate a deal with CI to make this a possibility.

Tenzor07

CramCycle wrote: »

I presume its in the hope that they get a better quote next week. Would CI insurance cover this to an extent, as in make every person who goes in for the day a member of CI, maybe they could negotiate a deal with CI to make this a possibility.

CI insurance would probably only cover the individual, however won't cover BPI the company against claims brought against it in court. You have to rely on the individual not to make a claim, and in a lot of cases that would work, but all it takes is for one person to make a claim and BPI will be paying out tens of thousands of €uro.
Same with club spins, a rider takes part in a MTB club spin, falls and breaks his arm, he could bring a claim to CI, but could also sue the club..

If you can like that Fine Gael TD put in a €60,000 claim for slipping off an indoor swing then you see the level of risk to organisations..

prunudo

The case in that last paragraph sums up everything that is wrong with insurance and the claim culture in this country.

Peter T

But isnt that how the guys in kerry and other uplift days operate ? Only CI members can attend

Good jib!

How much is membership of CI? If it's too high, it'd be fairly off-putting for a lot of casual day-out-with-the-lads BPI users, which'd be a big dent in BPI's income.

And a shame for the sport in general, as that's how I'd imagine that's how, like myself, a lot of people get into MTB in the first place!

rizzodun

Good jib! wrote: »

How much is membership of CI? If it's too high, it'd be fairly off-putting for a lot of casual day-out-with-the-lads BPI users, which'd be a big dent in BPI's income.

And a shame for the sport in general, as that's how I'd imagine that's how, like myself, a lot of people get into MTB in the first place!

A leisure license is €40 for the year, extremely affordable. I doubt however it would stop some people from attempting to take BPI to the cleaners for something that the user should have already accepted may happen.

Insurers must think there's no money to be made in Ireland, or that at least for the effort they must put in to see a return.

As mentioned above, if you have elected Dail officials putting in personal injury claims (for falling off a swing ffs!) what hope have you of getting the government to make changes?

Peter T

135 per year racing, 56 per year leisure.http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/membership/join-cycling-ireland

rizzodun

Peter T wrote: »

135 per year racing, 56 per year leisure.http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/membership/join-cycling-ireland

Ah yeah, it went up slightly. Still plenty affordable.

Peter T

Yep, have the leisure licence myself. You'd spend that by blinking in a bike shop

CramCycle

If they were a club as well, they could offer the option of one day licences for "events". In this regard, what protects regular CI events organisers been taken to the cleaners by someone looking to sue? If BPI set up a BPI club, made all days there into leisure events, they could offer two options, one join CI if not already a member and have discounted rates for the rest of the year, or offer one day event insurance via CI. As the club and not the business organise it, it would be no different than if my club organised it, and simply "rented" the park from BPI the company.

I know there are gaping holes in my suggestion but I don't fully understand the whole insurance thing.

Tenzor07

CramCycle wrote: »

If they were a club as well, they could offer the option of one day licences for "events". In this regard, what protects regular CI events organisers been taken to the cleaners by someone looking to sue? If BPI set up a BPI club, made all days there into leisure events, they could offer two options, one join CI if not already a member and have discounted rates for the rest of the year, or offer one day event insurance via CI. As the club and not the business organise it, it would be no different than if my club organised it, and simply "rented" the park from BPI the company.
I know there are gaping holes in my suggestion but I don't fully understand the whole insurance thing.

I'm sure there's some insurance experts around, but for BPI they have to be covered for any liabilities for persons on the premises, from slips and trips on and off the bike..

CI's insurers not CI have to deal with the claims..

Also can't ask individuals to take out one day licenses to come out on a spin..
Besides, clubs these days struggle to get members as whatsapp or facebook groups set up spins that way, so you have a group of lads going around casually, no club to sue!

rizzodun

Besides, it's not just BPI affected by this, there's a number of premises being forced to close because of our indemnity laws.

Judges can't award stupid sums of money if cases can't be taken.

A fundamental change is needed, just don't hold your breath.

Mr. Grieves

Out of interest, does anyone know Coillte's position regarding public liability insurance (for walkers as well as MTBers)?

charlieIRL

Just seen this on Facebook...


Latest Update on Trying to Reopen.


Firstly, we are quite simply overwhelmed with the support we are getting from everyone. It’s just amazing how a sudden closure of a small business can affect so many people in different ways and we are again truly sorry for all the inconvenience caused.
The latest news is that we are waiting to receive a final decision tomorrow morning from Insurance Company and if it’s good news we will be able to open up at the weekend. And if it’s not, then we will remain closed for another while.
We understand that there is quite a few people booked in for this weekend and if you can’t wait until tomorrow for a decision and need to make alternative plans in the next few days that’s no problem as we will naturally issue you a full refund.
Again, we are asking you for your patience and to cross all your fingers and hopefully we might get the green light tomorrow. As soon as we know, you will know.
Best regards,
Graham, Sandi and the BPI Team.
5pm Wednesday 22.5.19.

Ryath

Update on facebook page hopefully it works out.
https://www.facebook.com/bikeparkireland/

Firstly, we are quite simply overwhelmed with the support we are getting from everyone. It’s just amazing how a sudden closure of a small business can affect so many people in different ways and we are again truly sorry for all the inconvenience caused.
The latest news is that we are waiting to receive a final decision tomorrow morning from Insurance Company and if it’s good news we will be able to open up at the weekend. And if it’s not, then we will remain closed for another while.
We understand that there is quite a few people booked in for this weekend and if you can’t wait until tomorrow for a decision and need to make alternative plans in the next few days that’s no problem as we will naturally issue you a full refund.
Again, we are asking you for your patience and to cross all your fingers and hopefully we might get the green light tomorrow. As soon as we know, you will know.
Best regards,
Graham, Sandi and the BPI Team.
5pm Wednesday 22.5.19.

prunudo

Mr. Grieves wrote: »

Out of interest, does anyone know Coillte's position regarding public liability insurance (for walkers as well as MTBers)?

I'd say its only one big claim away from a sh!t storm.

CramCycle

jvan wrote: »

I'd say its only one big claim away from a sh!t storm.

They had one attempt and it was contested and thrown out AFAIK Sprained ankle, judge through it out under reasonable expectations.

prunudo

CramCycle wrote: »

They had one attempt and it was contested and thrown out AFAIK Sprained ankle, judge through it out under reasonable expectations.

That the experienced walker who tripped on the sleeper boardwalk. She was claiming because it was a structure it should be maintained like footpaths.

CramCycle

jvan wrote: »

That the experienced walker who tripped on the sleeper boardwalk. She was claiming because it was a structure it should be maintained like footpaths.

Exactly, and on appeal, the judge rightly ruled that there should be a level of expectation, particularly considering she was an experienced hiker.

We cover this in our H&S training at work, alot of these cases don't get through, and if they do it is because of cost/benefit for the insurer as judges aren't keen on awarding costs.

It does depend on the judge etc. but if appealed, the stupid ones often never make it through but without awarding costs.

Nonetheless, insurance companies here really don't want to touch them. A state backed insurer may be the answer, backed by involved government departments, to act in the interim until competitors come into the market. People would still have to pay but an easy cost analysis based on costs and awards over the previous 10 years would give reasonable numbers to work with, may even earn the government money through multiple avenues.