Honestly, what do you think about Season 8? Mod warning post #1/#410

storker

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Ah, the classic "it has dragons" defence that is for some reason supposed to make the season largely immune to valid criticism.

I'd love to see a stake driven through the heart of this old canard once and for all; it comes up quite a bit in Walking Dead discussions too. Apparently once there's any element of fantasy to a drama, pacing, characterisation and believeability no longer matter, and pointing out faults is just silly. Someone should have told Shelly and Stoker and Shakespeare - they could have saved themselves a lot of effort. "You got your monsters, what, you want believable drama too?" The answer to this is of course, "Yes, damn right we do"". It doesn't matter if the subject matter is a bank heist, a battle, a love affair, a natural disaster, or a fight against evil in outer space, people want characters they believe in who do things that makes sense with respect to their character and the circumstances in which they find themselves.

As someone who isn't actually a fantasy fan, but can still enjoy some fantasy from time to time, I'd say those aspects are even more critical, because when done well they assist with the suspension of disbelief that's so important in the genre. The less caught-up the viewer is (by good writing), the more likely he is to "...see the zipper running up the monster's back", as Stephen King put it. Just because a work features dragons, or zombies, or ghosts, or superheroes, it doesn't follow that anything goes and the writer can just coast along with his brain in neutral. Just because a viewer or reader is willing to accept something basically unbelievable for the purposes of the story, the writer doesn't get carte blanche to ignore the basic rules of good writing, rules which transcend genre and are ignored at the writer's peril.

storker

Rezident wrote: »

Oh - and one more thing - for the LOVE of all that is good and holy, stop using the word 'arc' - it's a TV show about dragons FFS! You sound like Una Mullally.

If "arc" is a good word, it's a good word for all drama, from MacBeth to Mad Men. The usability of the word is not genre-dependent.

storker

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

I'm disappointed with the lack of screen time Cersei got this season. Lena Headey plays her so well.

She also plays a great baddie in "Dredd" (2012) but not one that would make you think of Cersei, which makes it even better.

youreadthat

storker wrote: »

If "arc" is a good word, it's a good word for all drama, from MacBeth to Mad Men. The usability of the word is not genre-dependent.

It's just another word for plot/journey/story. You know, the thing they kind of forgot to include for the last 10 episodes.

youreadthat

Rezident wrote: »

I would have preferred 10 - 12 episodes rather than a paltry 6 but it's obviously brilliant, people saying the acting or writing is bad but they can't act or write as well themselves! It's just 2019 Outrage Culture, people getting recreationally offended by everything nowadays - including their own favourite show! And ruining it for themselves - LOL! Just so they can Tweet about it and join the Hype-machine. Someone wrote they were simultaneously checking Twitter while watching it, no wonder they didn't get it - they weren't even paying attention. And people who said that not enough people died! - those people need help.

The casting, the acting, the cgi, everything is just dripping with quality, and it even manages to be funny too. It will stand the test of time.

I think lots of people ruined it for themselves, they were so obsessed with it, online and reading about every rumour and possibility of what might happen and hypothesising every possibility and they foolishly ended up spoiling a lot of the reveals for themselves - I avoided all that nonsense and really enjoyed it - mostly. And they were still surprised by the NK ending! And threw their rattles out of the pram! It's like they don't even want to be happy.

There were a few moments that annoyed me, like Jon running out in front of a dragon and doing nothing for pure optics (kill the dragon with your sword FFS! and the whole Dothraki and Unsullied armies respawning for the final level!), but it was mostly very good. And as for people crying about the 'realism' or the military accuracy of the placement of the fúcking catapults! Let's not over-analyse it - it's a fúcking TV show about dragons!

The Long Night was one of the best episodes of anything I have ever seen although, admittedly, there is so much in the first half that you can't take it all in on your first viewing and it did feel a bit much, but the second viewing brought it all together. I love that they reward repeat viewing, as in earlier seasons too instead of only pandering to the bloodthirsty, Twitter Trolls who never even watched previous seasons, only watched the episode once and weren't even paying attention. The final ten minutes of it, the music, everything, the finish was just legendary. Truly extraordinary. I'll be watching it again this weekend, can't wait, nothing else is this epic.

And yes the CGI is the best that's been done so far, better than any film. And I'm so glad they didn't chicken out of Dany's true destiny.

And for people saying Dany went Mad!? She didn't go mad - she went Targaryen!

It was absolute ****e. You know this too, that's why you emphasise the CGI and big set pieces, the preserve of ****e Hollywood blockbusters. The show having Dragons, nor the audience's lack of script and screenplay writing skills makes season 8 (and 7) any less of a rushed mess baring no relationship to the rest of the show other than the same actors and costumes.

I guess they "kind of forgot" to pay for the audience getting the required literary training to enjoy their masterpiece. It's our fault.

Brian?

threein99 wrote: »

It's all subjective.

Of course it is. Someone offered an opinion and I offered a counter opinion. I wasn’t stating facts. I really didn’t think I need to preface it with “in
My opinion”, I thought that was obvious

Wailin

Started watching the series from scratch again during season 8. Just finished season 2 last night. The difference between the early seasons and the final 2 is unreal. It was, for me at least, the best TV show ever. Prior to this it was breaking bad but GoT is just another level.

I'll stop at end of season 6 since the last two are still fresh, and ****e!

Liam O

Rezident wrote: »

I would have preferred 10 - 12 episodes rather than a paltry 6 but it's obviously brilliant, people saying the acting or writing is bad but they can't act or write as well themselves! It's just 2019 Outrage Culture, people getting recreationally offended by everything nowadays - including their own favourite show! And ruining it for themselves - LOL! Just so they can Tweet about it and join the Hype-machine. Someone wrote they were simultaneously checking Twitter while watching it, no wonder they didn't get it - they weren't even paying attention. And people who said that not enough people died! - those people need help.

The casting, the acting, the cgi, everything is just dripping with quality, and it even manages to be funny too. It will stand the test of time.

I think lots of people ruined it for themselves, they were so obsessed with it, online and reading about every rumour and possibility of what might happen and hypothesising every possibility and they foolishly ended up spoiling a lot of the reveals for themselves - I avoided all that nonsense and really enjoyed it - mostly. And they were still surprised by the NK ending! And threw their rattles out of the pram! It's like they don't even want to be happy.

There were a few moments that annoyed me, like Jon running out in front of a dragon and doing nothing for pure optics (kill the dragon with your sword FFS! and the whole Dothraki and Unsullied armies respawning for the final level!), but it was mostly very good. And as for people crying about the 'realism' or the military accuracy of the placement of the fúcking catapults! Let's not over-analyse it - it's a fúcking TV show about dragons!

The Long Night was one of the best episodes of anything I have ever seen although, admittedly, there is so much in the first half that you can't take it all in on your first viewing and it did feel a bit much, but the second viewing brought it all together. I love that they reward repeat viewing, as in earlier seasons too instead of only pandering to the bloodthirsty, Twitter Trolls who never even watched previous seasons, only watched the episode once and weren't even paying attention. The final ten minutes of it, the music, everything, the finish was just legendary. Truly extraordinary. I'll be watching it again this weekend, can't wait, nothing else is this epic.

And yes the CGI is the best that's been done so far, better than any film. And I'm so glad they didn't chicken out of Dany's true destiny.

And for people saying Dany went Mad!? She didn't go mad - she went Targaryen!

I enjoyed the Long Night while watching for the first time because I thought there was a threat to my favourite characters from both book and show but in hindsight it's just complete nonsense. Tyrion made that battle plan. He also made the plan for the Blackwater. Did he lose all military planning ability in those seasons?

Have a look at how many times it cuts away from characters being completely surrounded with wights coming from all directions and comes back to them absolutely fine, including Dany who has no sword training turning into Arthur Dayne for a few scenes.

The whole Night King's dead, well, I guess he was just a bad guy after all thing was silly as well. They just assume there's nothing like him out there? Drogon looked a lot more effective in KL than against the dead too. Wight's who's weakness is fire just climb on top of one another without being enveloped in flames by the worst placed trench of all time.

There's much more but planning went out the window there and suddenly Danny's army magically respawned.

threein99

Brian? wrote: »

Of course it is. Someone offered an opinion and I offered a counter opinion. I wasn’t stating facts. I really didn’t think I need to preface it with “in
My opinion”, I thought that was obvious

Didnt read that way, comparing tv shows to bands is a bit silly as well

dodderangler

Finished it yesterday. Really disappointing. Could’ve done so much more. Dragged it out a lot.
Why are tv shows doing really bad endings. First vikings. Now thrones?!

Greyfox

Brian? wrote: »

You're having a laugh. Every season of The Wire or The Sopranos was better than any season of GoT. You can't even compare them in terms of acting, plot or cinematography.

I stand by what I said, I enjoyed both the wire and Sopranos but both series had some dull episodes. You can compare them, the writing in GOT S1-4 was on a par with both series, GOT was a lot more unpredictable and had better characters than the other 2 series, I enjoyed GOT a lot more. Season 2 of the wire ended on a very flat note.

Brock Turnpike

Cried myself to sleep after watching the final episode. Can't believe how poor this season has been. Where did it all go wrong, George?

Brian?

Greyfox wrote: »

I stand by what I said, I enjoyed both the wire and Sopranos but both series had some dull episodes. You can compare them, the writing in GOT S1-4 was on a par with both series, GOT was a lot more unpredictable and had better characters than the other 2 series, I enjoyed GOT a lot more. Season 2 of the wire ended on a very flat note.

It's all a matter of one person's opinion. I would point out though that the writing for the few few seasons of GoT was basically a synopsis of the books. Having read the books, I couldn't enjoy it as much as someone who hadn't.

Sopranos and the Wire were original pieces with no source material.

Every season of the Wire ended on a flat note, I think that was the point. The futility of it all.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I think I'm trapped in some kind of mandala effect thing where I'm the only person who can remember the absolute uproar when the sopranos finished!

People in 2007: Criminally lazy writing, undermines the entire show's run up to then, slap in the face to the audience, not fair on the cast, they haven't a clue what they're doing!

People in 2019: Criminally lazy writing, undermines the entire show's run up to then, slap in the face to the audience, not fair on the cast, they haven't a clue what they're doing! Now The Sopranos, there was a show that stayed good to the last drop!

Also I've watched The Wire through about three times, anyone who thinks there isn't a big drop off in quality consisting of unwieldy, rushed plot points, character assassinations in the name of furthering the plot, the carefully established realism of the story world being blown up needs to watch it again tbh.

TerrorFirmer

The difference is you're comparing an at-the-time level of unsatisfied opinion on an ending in the literal sense of an actual end-scene to an otherwise very highly regarded series.

The wide level of dissatisfaction with S8 of Game of Thrones relates to the entire structure, scripting, pace, rushed nature, weak dialogue, and all the rest of S8, in particular E3-E6. Not the last few minutes of the finale.

In fact, the polar opposite to Sopranos, the weak reception isn't even broadly about the end-game, it's really about how they got there.

They're not at all similar comparisons if we're being fair.

Besides, very, very few series maintain consistent quality throughout their run. Off the top of my head, Breaking Bad is the only show I can think of that a) did maintain quality and b) where the last season was in-fact better than the first few.

Game of Thrones however took a hard dip in certain respects after S6, and then an even more significant dip after S7.

There are differences between S1-4 and S5-S6 too obviously, but nowhere near as noticable and pretty much in line with what virtually every long running show experiences by that point.

Besides, it's easy to look back at Sopranos and have fresh appreciation for the creative decision on the ending, though it will still not gel with many people, because the acting, direction, scripting, dialogue, drama all hold up very well.

People's issue with Game of Thrones are entirely different - they centre on major flaws in virtually every aspect of the production/finale - horribly rushed, weak and lazy script, poor dialogue, etc.

It won't age any better than it is, no different then similarly poorly constructed and flawed end seasons/finales like Dexter or Lost.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

The difference is you're comparing an at-the-time level of unsatisfied opinion on an ending in the literal sense of an actual end-scene to an otherwise very highly regarded series.

The wide level of dissatisfaction with S8 of Game of Thrones relates to the entire structure, scripting, pace, rushed nature, weak dialogue, and all the rest of S8, in particular E3-E6. Not the last few minutes of the finale.

In fact, the polar opposite to Sopranos, the weak reception isn't even broadly about the end-game, it's really about how they got there.

They're not at all similar comparisons if we're being fair.

Besides, very, very few series maintain consistent quality throughout their run. Off the top of my head, Breaking Bad is the only show I can think of that a) did maintain quality and b) where the last season was in-fact better than the first few.

Game of Thrones however took a hard dip in certain respects after S6, and then an even more significant dip after S7.

There are differences between S1-4 and S5-S6 too obviously, but nowhere near as noticable and pretty much in line with what virtually every long running show experiences by that point.

While not hugely disagreeing with anything you're saying there, I bet you 50 bucks, meet you back here in 2030 and there'll be people typing up a storm using GOT to illustrate how HBOprogrammexyz went to sh1te!

I'm not quite sure how I've wound up spending the last few days defending GOT tbh, I've been steadily losing interest and lowering expectations since season five when the rot started to set in. Of all the ways I thought I'd feel about the end of it *shrug* "that was grand really" wasn't one I saw coming.

But I think history will be a bit less hysterically upset than the reaction has been this week.

TerrorFirmer

Oh it most definitely will be, because future viewers will generally have far less expectations of it as they'll already know about the mixed reaction to S8 and will have made peace with the fact that it's widely recognised as being a considerable drop on its preceding seasons.

And in all likelihood, for a great part of it, would then likely find themselves thinking "You know what, this isn't actually half as bad as people made it out to be". (though I still think the finale itself is somewhat universally underwhelming no matter what way you view the episodes leading up to it)

Objectively S8 is not terrible, or bad TV, or even close to it. It's just incredibly disappointing Game of Thrones and far below reasonable expectations given the high standards set by the show itself, and standards it upheld really well until S6, and in-part through S7. Witnessing a dramatic drop in quality play out in real-time, and walking into it later prepared for that fact, are very different things and do affect perception.

I feel the same way about say, Dexter - S8 is pretty objectively terrible, but if you knew that already going into it, it's still neither unwatchable or devoid of redeeming features, just a really poor and disappointing finale that squanders a great deal of the promise. We could say the same of True Detective S2/S3 for example, or maybe the last season of Boardwalk Empire.

Happens with all forms of media. I remember going into Terminator Genisys and expecting absolutely nothing, and was surprised to find it really enjoyable by virtue of being nowhere near as bad as I expected. Now, had I gone in there genuinely expecting the "true" sequel to Terminator 2, I would've been disgusted.

With Game of Thrones, we all went in there expecting them to stick the landing in a powerful, meaningful, emotional way that justified everything that came before it over the past eight years. Not an unreasonable expectation all in all, particularly when they had so much time and money to craft those last six epsiodes (putting aside the concerns that everyone had about wrapping it up so quickly)

Sadly they didn't. It doesn't mean the season doesn't have some amazing aspects to it and there's no denying that it's a major technical achievement and sets a new standard for small-screen spectacle that would arguably put a great deal of $100m blockbusters to shame.

I think someone who starts watching GOT down the line, knowing how it all went down, won't have half as many complaints about S8 as viewers who saw it unfold in real-time. Perhaps the finale, but I think they'd certainly be kinder to the controversial elements of E3, E4 and E5.

irishguitarlad

What's up with HBO recently? The final season of GOT was ****e and last years Westworld as well. Losing the battle to Netflix?

johnnyskeleton

Wilder Immense Jay wrote: »

But I think history will be a bit less hysterically upset than the reaction has been this week.

I think the opposite in fact. If you were to rewatch the whole show from s1e1 up to s8e6 the whole threat of the white walkers is meaningless in light of s8.

With the wire, even though season 5 is a bit ridiculous, seasons 1-3 are a classic police procedural mixed with social commentary and season 4 is a solid social commentary mixed with a police procedural.

The first few seasons of Sopranos arent diminished by the last season. Tony Soprano being a gangster with a complex family life is the purpose of the showand the drama flows from that.

However, something like Lost or Game of Thrones, which hook people in with a mystery at the start, and keep the suspense based on an anticipated future payoff, are badly damaged if not destroyed by the dodgy endings.

I never watched Lost at the time but remember the commentary and speculation as to what it was all about. Then i remember the furious fan reaction about the way it ended. I tried watching lost afterwards to see if the drama and acting was enough to sustain it and told myself not to get drawn in by the mystery stuff. From that point of view it was a bad series.

That said, hopefully Game of Thrones series 1-5 will be a good accompanyment to the books and the books will eventually be finished

Brian?

Wilder Immense Jay wrote: »

I think I'm trapped in some kind of mandala effect thing where I'm the only person who can remember the absolute uproar when the sopranos finished!

People in 2007: Criminally lazy writing, undermines the entire show's run up to then, slap in the face to the audience, not fair on the cast, they haven't a clue what they're doing!

People in 2019: Criminally lazy writing, undermines the entire show's run up to then, slap in the face to the audience, not fair on the cast, they haven't a clue what they're doing! Now The Sopranos, there was a show that stayed good to the last drop!

Also I've watched The Wire through about three times, anyone who thinks there isn't a big drop off in quality consisting of unwieldy, rushed plot points, character assassinations in the name of furthering the plot, the carefully established realism of the story world being blown up needs to watch it again tbh.

I remember being completely mystified by the uproar at the end of the Sopranos. I was praying they didn’t end neatly with Tony being whacked or locked up. They ended it with a sense of the world closing in on Tony as he’d always expected it would.

You remember his quote: “There’s only 2 ways it can end for a high profile guy like me, dead or in jail”. This was David Chase telling you how he didn’t need to put a bow on it, Tony was screwed no matter what. So when it faded to black, either he got whacked or the FBI were dragging him off to jail. It didn’t really matter which. A great ending.

The Wire ended with cycle of violence and criminality beginning again with a new cast of characters. It displayed the futility of everything that had gone before. Which was a constant theme throughout. A great ending.

GoT ended with everything tied up in a neat little package for every major character. A disappointing ending to me.

Brian?

irishguitarlad wrote: »

What's up with HBO recently? The final season of GOT was ****e and last years Westworld as well. Losing the battle to Netflix?

HBO still make great series. The Wire was never a big ratings show when it was on.

Greyfox

irishguitarlad wrote: »

What's up with HBO recently? The final season of GOT was ****e and last years Westworld as well. Losing the battle to Netflix?

Netflix has improved a lot and has more good tv shows then HBO but HBO's Chernobyl is still better then everything on Netflix

Foxtrol

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Ah, the classic "it has dragons" defence that is for some reason supposed to make the season largely immune to valid criticism. I must remember that for future movies.

There's valid criticism and then there are pedantic issues that have been repeatedly moaned about this season, made worse by how these same issues are completely ignored during previous seasons. A few examples of this that were recently mentioned in the threads - military tactics, coincidental run ins, armies changing size.

I don't believe in 'it has dragons' as an excuse but instead it should give the show huge bonus points for difficulty when comparing it to other beloved shows, like the ones on this thread. It is much easier to create and dig into characters in much smaller, slow moving world, that are based on elements of real life, and when they are set here parts of the audience are much less likely to lose their minds if the don't get 'answers' or the 'answers' dont align to their theories.

Foxtrol

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

However, something like Lost or Game of Thrones, which hook people in with a mystery at the start, and keep the suspense based on an anticipated future payoff, are badly damaged if not destroyed by the dodgy endings.

People who watch shows primarily for the mystery and an anticipated future payoff will rarely be satisfied.

That's more on them than the show or their writers.

Foxtrol

Brian? wrote: »

The Wire ended with cycle of violence and criminality beginning again with a new cast of characters. It displayed the futility of everything that had gone before. Which was a constant theme throughout. A great ending.

GoT ended with everything tied up in a neat little package for every major character. A disappointing ending to me.

I'm not sure how you can say The Wire was great and GoT tied eveything up too much. In GoT, a lot of characters moved on to do their own thing, like in The Wire, but the wider world keeps going with people believing a new ruler will do things better.

All the heads of the great houses from the start are dead and they're starting again with a new king, replacing 'a tyrant' just like Robert did. Did they 'break the wheel' or will it be more of the same, with dissension already there?

MisterAnarchy

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I think the opposite in fact. If you were to rewatch the whole show from s1e1 up to s8e6 the whole threat of the white walkers is meaningless in light of s8.

They never capitalised on their potential but there were huge casualties.
The wildlings were nearly wiped out ,over 100 thousand people.

Alot of the North was wiped out en route to Winterfell.
The Dothraki were supposedly wiped out but then half of them seemed to regenerate ,likewise the Unsullied.

Viserion died and Rhaegal was injured which contributed to his latter death.

A meaningless threat ?
At least 200 thousand people were killed ,thats a huge loss and but for Arya's stealth move the whole North would have been wiped out and likely the whole of Westeros as the Army of the Dead would have had huge numbers of new recruits.

storker

Greyfox wrote: »

Netflix has improved a lot and has more good tv shows then HBO but HBO's Chernobyl is still better then everything on Netflix

Chernobyl looks good and I intend to watch it, but otherwise your statement is a bit silly.

Bacchus

Season 8... I enjoyed it, and I don't have major misgivings about WHAT happened but I feel shortchanged that it was done in such a rushed way. Looking back, I think episodes 1 and 2 were the best. The reunions, the buildup to the battle, the tension, I was hanging for more. They were well paced episodes IMO and I didn't understand the negative feedback that the show needs to "get on with it". I was ok with episode 3. It was visually stunning, and at times epic. However it was also a bit stupid and I forgave how abruptly it ended with expectation that the final 3 episodes were where the real story was at. I still did feel shortchanged by the whole NK/WW story. It was build up so much, there were so many little mysteries to be unraveled, so much potential for where that story could go, and so much potential for some WW showdowns with the likes of Jorah, Jon, Jamie, etc. I though Arya was a badass for killing the NK and wouldn't change that, but what happened in episodes 4-6 leaves me scratching my head how they thought it was a good idea to resign the NK/WW to a side plot in this season that is dealt with in one (albeit long) episode.

Episode 4 was where the real cracks became apparant. The show was taking no time to breath and let the pieces move, scheme, and plot. The last half hour papered over those cracks beginning with Dani losing a dragon (again though, silly plot mechanics expecting us to believe Dani didn't spot a fleet of ships), and the confrontation outside Kingslanding was great. It was also a reminder of how wasted Cersei and everything happening at Kingslanding were. Episode 5 then... so yeah more "subverting expectations" and all those scorpions and the famous Golden army such obliterated. Like episode 3, thrilling and visually stunning but ultimately hollow and left me feeling shortchanged. Then Dani's mad queen turn. Like I said above, I have no issue with WHAT happened but it was rushed. Her turn to madness makes sense when you lay out recent events but it was such a dramatic turn and again leaves me feeling shortchanged that we could have spent more time watching her downfall. It should have been truely tragic, this shining beacon of light the show has held up from the beginning, slowly turning to madness and becoming the villain.

They saved the worst for last. The final episode itself was just "meh". I think the only noteworthy scenes were Brienne writing Jamie's entry in the book, and Tyrion finding his brother and sister (another example of stupid writing, as looking at the collapse in the previous episode they should have been well buried under rubble). At this point they'd ruined Dani and Greyworm as characters, and it was so rushed I just wasn't invested in where their characters went from there. Jon's killing of Dani felt underwhelming. Drogon's reaction was GoT version of the Darth Vadar "Nooooooooo!!!". And then... we jumped forward a month or so with all these major players at a round table meeting. Once again... shortchanged. Surely there was lots to tell in that time. We just sort of got landed in a trial hearing that turned into a vote for the next King that turns out to be Bran. This was also underwhelming and quite frustrating as it dawns on you how little impact Jon had in Season 8 after all the build up. Subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations. The fact that he is a Targarion barely comes into play in the whole season outside of a bit of a lover's tiff with Dani. The final "where are they now" shots then, were all a bit too neat and happy. Everyone (alive) got what they wanted essentially. Even Jon's apparant bleak ending worked out pretty alright for him, hanging out north of the wall with his buddies. The moment between him and Arya did strike the right chord though.

The final episode also produced what I think is probably the most redundant, stupid line of the series... from Arya... "I know a killer when I see one"... no sh*t sherlock! She just murdered an entire city of men, women and children!

Then there's other things like the Unsullied and Dotraki somehow still having massive numbers despite what looked like a total loss in episode 3. Jamie's u-turn in character development. Cersei spending what little screen time she had drinking wine looking out a window. Arya becoming completely redundant after her heriocs in episode 3. Nothing ever came of her faceless man skills either. Oh, and a total missed opportunity to end the show with Bran warging into Drogon. It was set up so long ago "you'll never walk again, but you'll fly". It would have been a fitting final shot.

That looks like a lot of complaining but I did really enjoy watching the season (well up to the final episode which I found a bit of a chore) and it was at time stunning on the screen. However, it's clear looking at it overall that there was another full season or two in this show. Cramming it into 6 long episodes was a huge mistake. Getting the NK/WW out of the way (which is what it felt like) by the third episode was a huge mistake. Setting Cersei up as a force to actually take on Dani and then completely undoing that in the space of about 2 minutes was a huge mistake. The showrunners clearly had no ideas on how to make the final season (or seasons) interesting from the plot perspective so they took the shortest line to the end and made it look real pretty. Where do I sign the petition to remake it

RonanP77

If the same thing had happened but spread out over a full length season and without the year off, I think people wouldn't have been so annoyed about it. The year of a break built it up so much and then things felt so rushed that people got frustrated.

Overall there aren't that many characters whose stories played out differently than I would have liked. It didn't exactly blow me away and didn't really measure up to the earlier seasons but I still enjoyed it.

micko1234

An absolute master class from start to finish, I have started Frontier on Netflix, great show too.

Raisins

Foxtrol wrote: »

Feel this season will stand up better for people who binge watch it straight after the others. No matter what they did with the last few seasons it was always going to seem rushed compared to the GRRM material, but by limiting the time lag between episodes and seasons it will allow character arcs and storylines to flow better and not seem as rushed as we found it watching along.

Not at all in my experience this is exactly what I did I binged all the GOT this year to catch up just before the last episode aired. Season 8 is actually worse if you binge watch after the other seasons the drop off in quality is absolutely laughable.

Apart from all the crazy stuff that doesn’t make sense and the guillotine of character development the dialogue in the last few episodes is embarrassing it’s so cringey at times.

People who say this is just a lot of fan boys too invested in the show or that it will age better in time are way off the mark. It will be a show famous for a few things including just how awful the ending is.

Mousewar

Having let the dust settle, I think the single biggest problem with the series, the thing that most left audiences unsatisfied, was the complete and utter neutering of Jon as a character.

Every series like this needs a hero (or an antihero). GoT was wonderfully refreshing in that when you thought someone was that hero (Ned, Robb) they pulled the rug from under you. But there still had to be a hero and that was Jon, or at least it was meant to be. The show told us this through two key plotlines.

The first was Jon's lineage - a major plot reveal, done to stirring music at season end. Jon was the true king - heir to the Iron throne. The second was that he was literally raised from the dead. People who are unimportant don't get raised from the dead. It's a Messiah theme. Jon was meant to be the Messiah, raised to save the world from the darkness. He had a mission, a purpose.

But neither of these two plotlines had any payoff. Jon's lineage meant nothing. It did nothing. If he had just been Ned Stark's bastard, he'd still have won back Winterfell, he'd still have met and fallen in love with Dany. The only difference was that his familial relationship with Dany put the brakes on his relationship with her and may have contributed to her mental break. Is that it? Is that really satisfactory payoff for the setup of the importance of his lineage? He wasn't even mentioned when they discussed appointing a new king. I think him going north is, in theory, a fitting ending for his character but not like this, banished there like some petty criminal. It should have been him turning down the throne having won it already.

As for his resurrection, exactly what was he brought back for? The Lord of Light is, we are told, uninterested in thrones, so the resurrection can only really relate to the fight against the Night King. But Jon didn't kill the NK, they gave that to Arya. Some people tell me that Jon was needed to unite the north against the undead as if that is meant to be a satisfactory payoff. It's not. Plenty of people could have done that. Why not resurrect Ned or Robb? Why not Sansa - they made it clear she was capable. There had to be somethig uniquely special about Jon to justify a resurrection storyline, something he achieves that no one else could and something clear and specific. Something like killing the NK.

Ultimately, what did Jon achieve over 8 seasons? He didn't even win the Battle of the Bastards, Littlefinger and the knights of the Vale won it for him. The only thing of substance he really did was murder his aunt/girlfriend, stabbing her in the chest. Is that it?

That is why it feels so deeply deflating when, after 8 seasons, your main hero character just peters out like a total irrelevance.

PressRun

Mousewar wrote: »

Having let the dust settle, I think the single biggest problem with the series, the thing that most left audiences unsatisfied, was the complete and utter neutering of Jon as a character.

Every series like this needs a hero (or an antihero). GoT was wonderfully refreshing in that when you thought someone was that hero (Ned, Robb) they pulled the rug from under you. But there still had to be a hero and that was Jon, or at least it was meant to be. The show told us this through two key plotlines.

The first was Jon's lineage - a major plot reveal, done to stirring music at season end. Jon was the true king - heir to the Iron throne. The second was that he was literally raised from the dead. People who are unimportant don't get raised from the dead. It's a Messiah theme. Jon was meant to be the Messiah, raised to save the world from the darkness. He had a mission, a purpose.

But neither of these two plotlines had any payoff. Jon's lineage meant nothing. It did nothing. If he had just been Ned Stark's bastard, he'd still have won back Winterfell, he'd still have met and fallen in love with Dany. The only difference was that his familial relationship with Dany put the brakes on his relationship with her and may have contributed to her mental break. Is that it? Is that really satisfactory payoff for the setup of the importance of his lineage? He wasn't even mentioned when they discussed appointing a new king. I think him going north is, in theory, a fitting ending for his character but not like this, banished there like some petty criminal. It should have been him turning down the throne having won it already.

As for his resurrection, exactly what was he brought back for? The Lord of Light is, we are told, uninterested in thrones, so the resurrection can only really relate to the fight against the Night King. But Jon didn't kill the NK, they gave that to Arya. Some people tell me that Jon was needed to unite the north against the undead as if that is meant to be a satisfactory payoff. It's not. Plenty of people could have done that. Why not resurrect Ned or Robb? Why not Sansa - they made it clear she was capable. There had to be somethig uniquely special about Jon to justify a resurrection storyline, something he achieves that no one else could and something clear and specific. Something like killing the NK.

Ultimately, what did Jon achieve over 8 seasons? He didn't even win the Battle of the Bastards, Littlefinger and the knights of the Vale won it for him. The only thing of substance he really did was murder his aunt/girlfriend, stabbing her in the chest. Is that it?

That is why it feels so deeply deflating when, after 8 seasons, your main hero character just peters out like a total irrelevance.

You've said it all perfectly, but I just wanted to say I agree. The more I think back on it, the more the disservice done to the Jon Snow character grates.

EagererBeaver

It was absolutely ****ing awful.

facehugger99

I honestly think it would have been much, much better if he hadn't be resurrected.

I remember how shocking his death was when i read the last book and it really felt cheap to resurrect him (I'm aware that resurrection as a concept was already established in the show/books - it still doesn't sit right). One of the things that made the ASOIAF series so compelling and tense was the sense that any of the characters could die at any time. It was so unlike the usual deus ex machina tropes that are common in fiction.

Considering what they ended up doing with the character, it really made no sense to go back on all that made the series so different and resurrect him after a couple of episodes.

OneOfThem Stumbled

facehugger99 wrote: »

I honestly think it would have been much, much better if he hadn't be resurrected.

I remember how shocking his death was when i read the last book and it really felt cheap to resurrect him (I'm aware that resurrection as a concept was already established in the show/books - it still doesn't sit right). One of the things that made the ASOIAF series so compelling and tense was the sense that any of the characters could die at any time. It was so unlike the usual deus ex machina tropes that are common in fiction.

Considering what they ended up doing with the character, it really made no sense to go back on all that made the series so different and resurrect him after a couple of episodes.

The only significant things that Jon got up to after being resurrected was the Battle of the Bastards, his conflict with Sansa over ruling the North, kidnapping the zombie, and killing Daenerys, and personally I think the last two things, maybe even three things would have been better cut altogether.

The Battle of the Bastards might even have been more interesting as being Sansa against Ramsay... it would have been two generals facing off against one another, instead on one general (Ramsay) and one berserker (Jon) with the actually decisive action being played by Sansa (who obtained the knights of the Vale). Sansa is even the one who kills Ramsay in the end anyway!

If someone was watching this series from scratch I'd tell them to stop after Season 7 episode 4, and skip straight to Season 8 episode 1, and then finish altogether at Season 8 episode 3. The move of Daenerys from the Reach to the North might seem a bit disjointed for anybody doing it this way, but it's not like the series hadn't been using teleporters already. The end of the white walkers would still be a bit anti-climatic, but it's the best ending that can be derived without an entire rewrite.

Brian?

Mousewar wrote: »

Having let the dust settle, I think the single biggest problem with the series, the thing that most left audiences unsatisfied, was the complete and utter neutering of Jon as a character.

Every series like this needs a hero (or an antihero). GoT was wonderfully refreshing in that when you thought someone was that hero (Ned, Robb) they pulled the rug from under you. But there still had to be a hero and that was Jon, or at least it was meant to be. The show told us this through two key plotlines.

The first was Jon's lineage - a major plot reveal, done to stirring music at season end. Jon was the true king - heir to the Iron throne. The second was that he was literally raised from the dead. People who are unimportant don't get raised from the dead. It's a Messiah theme. Jon was meant to be the Messiah, raised to save the world from the darkness. He had a mission, a purpose.

But neither of these two plotlines had any payoff. Jon's lineage meant nothing. It did nothing. If he had just been Ned Stark's bastard, he'd still have won back Winterfell, he'd still have met and fallen in love with Dany. The only difference was that his familial relationship with Dany put the brakes on his relationship with her and may have contributed to her mental break. Is that it? Is that really satisfactory payoff for the setup of the importance of his lineage? He wasn't even mentioned when they discussed appointing a new king. I think him going north is, in theory, a fitting ending for his character but not like this, banished there like some petty criminal. It should have been him turning down the throne having won it already.

As for his resurrection, exactly what was he brought back for? The Lord of Light is, we are told, uninterested in thrones, so the resurrection can only really relate to the fight against the Night King. But Jon didn't kill the NK, they gave that to Arya. Some people tell me that Jon was needed to unite the north against the undead as if that is meant to be a satisfactory payoff. It's not. Plenty of people could have done that. Why not resurrect Ned or Robb? Why not Sansa - they made it clear she was capable. There had to be somethig uniquely special about Jon to justify a resurrection storyline, something he achieves that no one else could and something clear and specific. Something like killing the NK.

Ultimately, what did Jon achieve over 8 seasons? He didn't even win the Battle of the Bastards, Littlefinger and the knights of the Vale won it for him. The only thing of substance he really did was murder his aunt/girlfriend, stabbing her in the chest. Is that it?

That is why it feels so deeply deflating when, after 8 seasons, your main hero character just peters out like a total irrelevance.

Completely agree.

The great mystery about Jon was his lineage. Discovering this lineage needed a pay off. Even winning the Iron throne wouldn't have been a pay off for me.

The story is "A Song of Ice and Fire", Jon is the living embodiment of that. Stark and Targaryan lineage. Ice and Fire magic. The real pay off I was hoping for was that the Night King was a Stark who came looking for men to keep up their side of the bargain that had been forgotten. Jon would have been the makeweight in that bargain.

Instead it turns out the Night King was just a big baddie, a lesser Sauron, who could be stabbed to death and his whole army destroyed. It was a complete let down.

Daith

One thing I find interesting (well poor) is that Cersei and the Night King basically end up the same

Both take down a dragon
Both kill people close to Dany
Both inflict heavy losses for Dany's allies

In comparison, Jon doesn't get hurt that much by them.

Instead of showing that humans can be worse than supernatural beings, they both perform the same function and leaves the whole thing feeling like a repeat in the same season.

.......

The aspect that annoyed me the most was the build up with mytserious patterns, culture, rituals of the Night King and his generals, and then....nothing.

Not so much as a boss fight.

They built it up SO much. Repeated body part patterns of the dead. What was that about? Right from season 1 through to season 8. Mance rayder commented that they were "ever the artists". Was that all it was? Pretty designs?

Then, some kind of secret place where the generals all stood round in a circle and watched a baby boy be baptised into being one of them. So if they were turning babies into white walkers, presumably they had a place where the babies lived, grew up, got raised?

Its reasonable to assume that Craster was just one of many making this sacrifice to appease the WWs. But no, we only ever saw a few generals and NK himself.

So after all of this mysterious build up, where we saw the difference between wights being created and white walkers being created, and we saw Jon Snow fight a WW directly, and we made the discovery that dragon glass created them and dragon glass could kill them........

It all came to nothing. There was an episode that was so dark it was virtually impossible to see the action where the army of the dead was thrown at the living and meanwhile the generals and the NK did nothing much, and we never discovered anything about all of these mysterious things we had been shown all along.

Neutered Jon? They castrated the NK.

OneOfThem Stumbled

Okay so discussions about GOT are going off faster than a corpse in the July sun, but here are two videos that have just been released, that are worth watching in relation to Season 8.

Enjoy (if you have not yet seen them). The second video is a short supercut, the first is a long discussion.

Kiith

As much as the season wasn't great, it had some fantastic music.

Peatys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GdWD0yxvqw

eagle eye

We have clearly a new type of tv audience. Us older guys just accept the outcomes and rate accordingly. The younger audience wants it done exactly as they think it should be done and if that doesn't happen they scream and rant about it.
It was a great show imo, the last season, outside of the war against the white walkers episode, wasn't as good or as detailed as previous seasons but it was still very good.
In the argument for best tv show of all time.

facehugger99

eagle eye wrote: »

We have clearly a new type of tv audience. Us older guys just accept the outcomes and rate accordingly. The younger audience wants it done exactly as they think it should be done and if that doesn't happen they scream and rant about it.
It was a great show imo, the last season, outside of the war against the white walkers episode, wasn't as good or as detailed as previous seasons but it was still very good.
In the argument for best tv show of all time.

Maybe you should just speak for yourself.

The rest of us older guys didn't vote for you to be the voice of our generation.

eagle eye

facehugger99 wrote:

Maybe you should just speak for yourself.
The rest of us older guys didn't vote for you to be the voice of our generation.

Well I'm speaking for myself and all the people of similar age that I know well. Yeah there is one guy moaning about it but the rest are like I just said above.

Kirby

eagle eye wrote: »

In the argument for best tv show of all time.

Anybody making that argument will lose it.

Game of Thrones will never be considered one of the greatest tv shows of all time because of the ending. The vast majority agree that the ending was poor. Exactly how poor will vary from person to person but there is no denying the overriding feeling of disappointment.

You miss the point completely if you think people were unhappy because "It didn't end exactly how we wanted it to". People were unhappy because the writing was objectively terrible.

Varys betraying Dany for the realm and paying for it.
Dany burning kings landing to the ground.
Tyrion forsaking her because of it.
Jon killing her.
Tyrion ending up as hand again.
Jon going north of the wall.

None of these ideas are terrible ones. But the execution of them was horrendous.

And then we have to deal with choices that don't make any sense when examined for longer that five minutes.
The NK and army of the dead being defeated in a single episode after so much buildup.
Arya killing the NK.
Jons parentage being ultimately pointless.
Euron 360 noscoping a dragon out of the sky.
Jon being left alive for longer than 5 seconds after killing Dany.
Bran being crowned King.
The North being granted independence without the other 7 kingdoms losing their collective sh*t and starting another war.
Jamie and Cersei's death.
The list goes on.

Season 8 had the hallmarks of a writing team who had checked out and were desperate to close the book and move on to other things. i.e Star Wars.

beauf

Most of the people I know don't mind the ending. But then they shovel feed tv and don't really that discerning. Anyone I know who pays attention to the details was disappointed.

Even when reading the books it always felt like the fantasy side wasn't really integrated with the non fantasy side. Felt like it was added to add color but his heart was never really in it.

Some won't care. But if you do it really felt unresolved and poorly written in the final season.

TerrorFirmer

To be honest, anyone at this stage who's still banging on about how 'people are throwing a tantrum because they didn't get the ending they deserve' is just being willfully ignorant.

People, critics included, have gone to enormous lengths, on virtually every platform going (including here in immense detail), to discuss how the fundamental problem with S8 E03-E06 is the rushed and terrible execution of what are perfectly sound ideas on paper.

Nothing whatsoever to do with audience ages or the ending in principle. Everything to do with atrocious writing and attempting to cram about 4 episodes worth of content into each of the last 3 episodes of the season.

In years to come, it'll be remembered as a unique cultural phenomenon alright, but just like the last great example of same in modern times, Lost, it'll be remembered for a disappointing, anti-climatic and weak ending.

Greyfox

Kirby wrote: »

Game of Thrones will never be considered one of the greatest tv shows of all time because of the ending..

Season 8 had the hallmarks of a writing team who had checked out and were desperate to close the book and move on to other things. i.e Star Wars.

It's still one of the greatest tv shows ever made as most of season 1-6 and parts of s7 were of a far higher standard than most other tv shows. The massive drop in quality is the last 3 of 73 episodes (I know pacing issue started in S7ep1) its only from here that it becomes clear that D&D didn't bother to put any real thought into the ending. What happened was a tragedy as D&D had checked out but everyone else was still doing there best.

eagle eye

Kirby wrote:

Anybody making that argument will lose it.

Bran becoming king meant everybody lives happily ever at the end of the tale.
Danys destroying Westeros was in line with something the mad king would do.
Jon Snow was the only person who could get close enough to kill her.
He had to go after he killed her, that made sense.
I agree with you that some great storylines that were built up for years were dismissed in the last series but this thing went on a lot longer than anybody expected.
When you look at the endings of other great tv shows you'll see that a lot of them didn't end very well.
This show stands out despite the last series as one of the greatest ever.